Wilber Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 They returned spending to Paul Martin levels. They've done very little since 2011. I have a long memory and have zero faith in the Liberals to do what is right by the military. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) I have a long memory and have zero faith in the Liberals to do what is right by the military. I don't have any more faith in the Liberals than you on this issue. The problem, for me at least, is that I don't have any faith in the Conservatives on this issue, either. Edited October 18, 2015 by Smallc Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 I don't have any more faith in the Liberals than you on this issue. The problem, for me at least, is that I don't have any faith in the Conservatives on this issue, either. Exactly. As I said a few days ago, the chief difference between the Conservatives and Liberals is that the Conservatives intend to fight imaginary battles with our imaginary military, while the Liberals intend to keep our imaginary military at home. While I firmly believe there aren't enough bombs in the world for ISIS, and the US should keep bombing them for six months after every one of them is dead, just in case there's an ISIS zombie apocalypse. But really, our planes dropping the odd bomb here and there, other than as a symbolic gesture, has little or no military significance. Quote
Wilber Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 I don't have any more faith in the Liberals than you on this issue. The problem, for me at least, is that I don't have any faith in the Conservatives on this issue, either.At least they would never be stupid enough to amalgamate the services and dress them all in green. Justin is going to cancel the F-35 program and have a competition that includes anything but the F-35. He can't include the F-35 in a competition because it would probably win. Smacks of the EH101 fiasco all over again. The Liberal leader announced plans for a “leaner, more agile, and better equipped”So when we take on a mission somewhere else in the world, how many tours will our already strapped personnel have to endure in this new "leaner" military. I think you can forget the other stuff. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 Exactly. As I said a few days ago, the chief difference between the Conservatives and Liberals is that the Conservatives intend to fight imaginary battles with our imaginary military, while the Liberals intend to keep our imaginary military at home. While I firmly believe there aren't enough bombs in the world for ISIS, and the US should keep bombing them for six months after every one of them is dead, just in case there's an ISIS zombie apocalypse. But really, our planes dropping the odd bomb here and there, other than as a symbolic gesture, has little or no military significance. That is not what Justin has said......He has said he plans to make our military smaller and leaner....( which means savings and place to cut ) and he also intends to increase our contributions to UN missions to the Max.....there has been no talks about increasing military budgets,or extra programs for the military..... with one exception cutting the F-35 program, dumping what he thinks is extra billions into the ship building program.....without consulting the military, or seeing the entire program.....he is making this decision based on facts you and i are privy to, and not the entire picture......and he has forced himself into a corner, that only has one outcome for Canada....no F-35, stuck with an aircraft that is only gen 4 and will be obsolete in the near future....In military talk that means pilots will pay for this mistake with their lives, because some dink did not want to look bad......and reverse his decision....That is the reality we face today...... It is the sad reality that Canadians will shrug it all off, and say at least we save our dollars......when our sons and daughters pay for those mistakes..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 That is not what Justin has said......He has said he plans to make our military smaller and leaner....( which means savings and place to cut ) The Conservatives have underfunded their own plan. Even with current increases that the Liberals have promised to maintain, there is not enough money for the Canada First Defence Strategy. There isn't a choice. and he also intends to increase our contributions to UN missions to the Max Citation needed. .....there has been no talks about increasing military budgets,or extra programs for the military There is exactly the same amount of talk as with the Conservatives, as we're talking about the same amount of money. ..... with one exception cutting the F-35 program There should always have been an open competition. dumping what he thinks is extra billions into the ship building program.....without consulting the military, or seeing the entire program Then that is the fault of the current government for not laying it all on the table. How can you have a stable building program for generations if you don't have firm build plans? .....he is making this decision based on facts you and i are privy to, and not the entire picture......and he has forced himself into a corner, that only has one outcome for Canada....no F-35, stuck with an aircraft that is only gen 4 and will be obsolete in the near future The Super Hornet looks like it will be sticking around for a while, and the Rafale isn't going anywhere. ....In military talk that means pilots will pay for this mistake with their lives, because some dink did not want to look bad......and reverse his decision....That is the reality we face today...... How many shooting battles have Canadian pilots been in? How many first day strike missions? A review found that all potential aircraft would perform about as well as each other for Canada's needs. It is the sad reality that Canadians will shrug it all off, and say at least we save our dollars......when our sons and daughters pay for those mistakes..... Again, the Liberals will spend the same amount of money as the Conservatives have committed to. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 The Conservatives have underfunded their own plan. Even with current increases that the Liberals have promised to maintain, there is not enough money for the Canada First Defence Strategy. There isn't a choice. You and Derek have already hashed this out, the plan was for 15 surface ves.....the plan is still in play.....there has been talk in the media but no offical source from DND, or Government on reductions...... There is always a choice....... Justin during a question period while on tour , was quoted as saying that it was his plan to have Canada as the top contributor to UN missions.....he's your guy..... There should always have been an open competition. So now you've done a 180 on the F-35 program.....the same program you've been defending for some time now...Good on ya....i'am not totally convince it is the best aircraft either......but it is the only gen 5 aircraft available.......but lets have a competition anyways, so they can come up with the same solution.....Is your boy Justin going to have an open competition.....NO he is not....... The Super Hornet looks like it will be sticking around for a while, and the Rafale isn't going anywhere. Really that's all you got.....Is the Super Hornet still in production.....what does it mean when the production line is shut down to you.....do you think they continue to pump bils into R&D keeping the aircraft current......where do you go for parts, etc etc,.....and for how long given our history of keeping aircraft around for 30 plus years......how's that super hornet looking now......and the Rafale is a good plane they all are, but who's flying them in any numbers, and how long will they be current.....the Rafale story looks worse than the Super Hornet...... How many shooting battles have Canadian pilots been in? How many first day strike missions? A review found that all potential aircraft would perform about as well as each other for Canada's needs. Thats what your basing your opinion on "how many shooting battles has Canadian pilots been in" Thats a crook of shit......tell me does your crystal ball say they never will be in any hostile environment for the next 30 years....How many CAP patrols has CDN pilots performed in the last 25 years over hostile areas....lots...... F-35 gives the owners a lot more options than a first strike mission....allieds countries during the gulf war used older aircraft on their first strike missions and lost aircraft.....and pilots.....but that's the question is it.....how much is a pilot life worth.....i'll tell you ones years wage, a free coffin, and burial..... I think the Commander of the Air force knows what he will need for any future needs, and he does not have a crystal ball......his decision is based on experience and threat assessments and he's been sold on the F-35......what is justin basing his requirements on.... what info does he have that the general does not..... Is the F-35 the end all be all aircraft, no it is not, but it is the newest one out there, and it will grow like any other aircraft out there......And if we were going to do this in 10 to 15 years i'd be all for the super hornets.....but we are to cheap for that......and you know that as well..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Wilber Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) There should always have been an open competition. Then why not have one now? Why disqualify the most capable aircraft before it even starts? The Super Hornet looks like it will be sticking around for a while, and the Rafale isn't going anywhere. How long is awhile? We are expecting to get 40 years out of our existing F-18's and it was the newest generation fighter when we put them into service five years after it's first flight. We are expecting the same from the F-35. The Super Hornet is an extension of the original F-18 technology and first flew ten years ago. Expect to replace them long before a F-35 replacement is needed and don't be surprised if the F-35 ends up being the replacement. On edit. How much money will be spent on future development and improvements to the Super Hornet after the F-35 comes on line? Very little, most of the resources available will go into the F-35 because it is the future. Edited October 18, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 I still think the F-35 is the best aircraft. That said, for Canada any aircraft available will basically be the same. There should have been an open competition. Oh and the Harper government wasn't lying about the cost. Quote
Wilber Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) I still think the F-35 is the best aircraft. That said, for Canada any aircraft available will basically be the same. There should have been an open competition. Oh and the Harper government wasn't lying about the cost. Will Justin be upfront when it comes to whatever replacement he selects? Wouldn't count on it. Will its costing include everything in its operational life which is bound to be shorter? Anyhow, there will be plenty of US F-35's around to cover our butts. If it is in their best interest to do so of course. That's the difference between us and the Australians. They see a need to be a regional power because they don't have a big brother next door to look after them. That is why they are committed to the F-35 with the Super Hornet as a stop gap. They take their defence seriously. Edited October 18, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 I still think the F-35 is the best aircraft. That said, for Canada any aircraft available will basically be the same. There should have been an open competition. Oh and the Harper government wasn't lying about the cost. Another reason to vote liberal......these guys are not even in power yet and this is the second screw up they've made......anything but harper ya right..... maybe it should be anything but Harper and trudeau..... anything but the F-35 is a good sound decision based on nothing but a political choice.....Because that's the one Harper and crew wanted, sounds like something a couple of kids would do on the play ground.........to bad lives are on the line......this is the liberal line Screw the military, we will use and abuse them..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 Harper made the F-35 politically unpalatable by refusing to hold a competition - something we always do for every project where there is any possible competition. Harper's problem as I just heard it on Cross Country Checkup: why buy a dog when you're going to bark yourself? He and Mulcair both have the smartest man in the room problem. Quote
Wilber Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) Harper made the F-35 politically unpalatable by refusing to hold a competition - something we always do for every project where there is any possible competition. Harper's problem as I just heard it on Cross Country Checkup: why buy a dog when you're going to bark yourself? He and Mulcair both have the smartest man in the room problem. And all that is more important than buying the right aircraft? Trudeau will go out and buy the wrong one because he made a stupid campaign promise? Screw the country, screw the military, he might look bad. Chretien and the EH101 all over again. Friggin politicians, a pox on them all. Edited October 18, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 We don't know yet that they will for certain disqualify the F-35. It is a likely possibility. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 The F-35 program has been reset.....by the Harper government.....if it had'nt we'd already have a contract..... And now....Justin is doing the same thing.....only they will not being looking at the F-35....how is that being transparent, and responsible government...... He is making a decision without all the facts.....that have not been made public by either DND or our government.....He' made the choice because it will get him votes and political points.....and screw the military.....And while i'm not i can honestly say i have little good to say about the Air force, because i'm jealous my life has depended on air support to many times not to want them to have the best equipment in the neighbourhood. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 The Conservatives could have bought the F-35. They didn't. They pushed it to the side because that the was the politically expedient thing to do. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 We don't know yet that they will for certain disqualify the F-35. It is a likely possibility. Actually justin said just that....while answering questions about the F-35 and his plans for the Navy.....he stated that he will not being buying the F-35, and use the savings to put back into the navys programs.... And while he is not in office, and nothing is in concrete yet.....i hope he is transparent as he says he will be.....i hope he will be an adult , look at DND program , and there advice and make the right choice ...and if he is wrong about the F-35 atleast man up and say so.....he does that and he may swing my opinion.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 The Conservatives could have bought the F-35. They didn't. They pushed it to the side because that the was the politically expedient thing to do. That may have been part of it....the F-35 needed time to prove it's critics wrong....it stills needs time, shit even the US air force Navy are not 100 % behind the F-35....there are still members of the Chain of Command that speak out again'st it.....but right now there is only one horse in the barn.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 That may have been part of it....the F-35 needed time to prove it's critics wrong....it stills needs time, shit even the US air force Navy are not 100 % behind the F-35....there are still members of the Chain of Command that speak out again'st it.....but right now there is only one horse in the barn.... And that's why there hasn't been a competition. Many at public works are also worried about a paper airplane, given the scandal the CH-148 has become. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 18, 2015 Report Posted October 18, 2015 Then there should be no real issue to including it in a competition......This issue is going to give justin just as much grieve as it gave the Cons..... But right now it does not look like the Liberals are going to handle it any better.....which is why i have to ask what drew you to the liberal camp..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 19, 2015 Report Posted October 19, 2015 But right now it does not look like the Liberals are going to handle it any better.....which is why i have to ask what drew you to the liberal camp..... Everything else that they proposed. Their tax plan is better, their drug policy is better, their infrastructure plan is better, and their democratic reform plan is amazing. They've also promised to do just as well as the Conservatives on defence. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but there was really no way for me to vote Conservative in the face of all of that. As John Ivison said, they circled the Conservatives with their tax plan and the NDP with their transit plan. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 19, 2015 Report Posted October 19, 2015 I hope for all our sakes that your right.....but i could not get past the damage the liberals did in the past..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted November 16, 2015 Report Posted November 16, 2015 Canada now has zero - that's right - zero - AAD capability: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/sm2-missiles-removed-from-hmcs-athabaskan-navy-looking-at-keeping-launchers-for-possible-use-on-canadian-surface-combatant This failure brought to you by the Conservative Party of Canada, in cooperation with previous Liberal governments. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Posted November 16, 2015 Canada now has zero - that's right - zero - AAD capability: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/sm2-missiles-removed-from-hmcs-athabaskan-navy-looking-at-keeping-launchers-for-possible-use-on-canadian-surface-combatant This failure brought to you by the Conservative Party of Canada, in cooperation with previous Liberal governments. Ahh no, Canada hasn't had a viable area air defense capability since the Banshee was retired, as the radars/fire control systems aboard the 280s could never fully utilize the range advantage afforded by the SM2, and they currently offer no real advantage over the ESSM on the frigates. The Kingfish made the 280s obsolete, not Harper Quote
Smallc Posted November 16, 2015 Report Posted November 16, 2015 Ahh no, Canada hasn't had a viable area air defense capability since the Banshee was retired, as the radars/fire control systems aboard the 280s could never fully utilize the range advantage afforded by the SM2, and they currently offer no real advantage over the ESSM on the frigates. At this point, why is the Athabaskan even in service? It's simply taking up resources that are better used in other places. I hope she is retired soon enough. Quote
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