Shipbuilding contracts

[Smallc]

Just look at what we're paying for a couple of Berlins and tell me it'll be just fine.

[Derek 2.0]

Just look at what we're paying for a couple of Berlins and tell me it'll be just fine.

What of it? ~$ 4.5 billion for large, modern, supply ships, built to military standards and 30 years in-service support is aligned with other such purchases

[Derek 2.0]

I don't have faith that your yards can do that. Maybe they'll prove different.

And you base your opinion on what? Both Irving and SEASPAN have completed their portions of FELEX to date on budget.

[PIK]

We all know the liberals or the NDP will not come thru with any promises when it comes to the military. Lets not kid ourselves.

[cybercoma]

We all know the liberals or the NDP will not come thru with any promises when it comes to the military. Lets not kid ourselves.

What we know is that the Conservatives haven't in 10 years. What you think about the Liberals and NDP is just speculation from your partisan fantasy world.

[Smallc]

What we know is that the Conservatives haven't in 10 years. What you think about the Liberals and NDP is just speculation from your partisan fantasy world.

They did actually...when they had a minority government. Their majority has been a waste of 4 years.

[Derek 2.0]

They did actually...when they had a minority government. Their majority has been a waste of 4 years.

How has it been a waste? As I asked of you numerous times, by all means, explain how the National Ship Building Strategy could/should have been sped up? As said before, as a contrast, the British type 45 destroyer program for 12 ships (reduced to 6), in a nation with an established shipbuilding industry, began the program in the later 80s, in a partnership with France and Italy (both nations with their own shipbuilding industries), but didn't commission the first ship until 2009.........

Verses our National Ship Building Strategy, which began in 2010, and will produce dozens of ships for both the navy and coast guard, and see the first vessels begin commissioning in Spring of 2017...........

[Derek 2.0]

Why? Egypt purchased a GP FREMM frigate, including spares, maintenance, infrastructure and munitions for ~$1.2 billion earlier this year from France......if our GP frigate (12 ships) are in that price range, that would equate to $15 billion of $ 26 billion budgeted, leaving $11 billion for 3 DDGs....The RAN is paying for its three over budget Hobart class destroyers, in 2015 USD, just under $6 billion..........so yeah, context is important, as is risk mitigation, which I was concerned about several years ago, prior to the announced industry partnerships.

And DND's response to the tin-foil hattery in the media:

This project is currently in the definition phase, which means we are at the stage of firming up more of the detail, examining issues such as cost, schedule and requirements, and identifying any risks early so that they can be mitigated. The documents being referred to in some media reports are a management tool to help do exactly that.

As the project progresses through the definition phase, National Defence and the Royal Canadian Navy will continue to evaluate risks, adapt accordingly, and find efficiencies when and where possible. This is an ongoing process that will continue to evolve throughout the life of the project.

Through the design-then-build approach, the ship designs will be reviewed, refined and matured to get all of the production details right, and to factor in potential risks and finalize costs and schedule.

In other words, to hit the panic button and cry over budget, before the actual design has been selected, is a fool's errand........

[Argus]

And DND's response to the tin-foil hattery in the media:

.

Not sure why you posted that. It reminds of me a book I read long ago in which an alien ambassador has to sit through a long welcoming speech by a human, and then, in confusion, speaks to his colleague "what should I say?"

The colleague says "Just say pretty much what he just said" And the alien said "He said nothing!" and the colleague said "Say nothing in return."

[Derek 2.0]

Not sure why you posted that. It reminds of me a book I read long ago in which an alien ambassador has to sit through a long welcoming speech by a human, and then, in confusion, speaks to his colleague "what should I say?"

The colleague says "Just say pretty much what he just said" And the alien said "He said nothing!" and the colleague said "Say nothing in return."

To refute and add context to the unfounded claim by CTV, from a leaked document years old, released during the election, "by chance", the same time Trudeau is announcing his policy platform for the navy.......

[Smallc]

How has it been a waste?

They've basically done nothing of consequence for 4 years. I'm not just talking military. They've been competent, but that's about it.

[Derek 2.0]

They've basically done nothing of consequence for 4 years. I'm not just talking military. They've been competent, but that's about it.

Good!!! Less Government the better!!!

But, that doesn't answer your repeated, unfounded, gripping about the NSPS.

[Smallc]

Both the Liberals and Conservatives failed the navy for a very long time, excuses notwithstanding.

[Derek 2.0]

Both the Liberals and Conservatives failed the navy for a very long time, excuses notwithstanding.

Bold statement, lacking both context and substance mind you...........by all means, explain how the current Government has failed the RCN.....

[Smallc]

Bold statement, lacking both context and substance mind you...........by all means, explain how the current Government has failed the RCN.....

They promised ships long before they're being delivered. That first JSS that they promised for 2012 didn't materialize. The Liberals were even worse promising the ship for 2008. Here we are, looking at 2016 at the earliest for a temporary ship.

[Derek 2.0]

They promised ships long before they're being delivered. That first JSS that they promised for 2012 didn't materialize. The Liberals were even worse promising the ship for 2008. Here we are, looking at 2016 at the earliest for a temporary ship.

As has been gone over numerous times with you, the first JSS concept (not a design) was an unworkable solution, born in the 1990s and further complicated by the Liberal Government in 2004-2005 with the inclusion of a requirement for sealift and support of forces ashore.........I applaud the Government for not continuing with it, as does the RCN.

[Smallc]

And so the navy does without, making patchwork solutions to get by. This government took 3 years to start the strategy. We could be getting our first ships now. We aren't,

[Derek 2.0]

And so the navy does without, making patchwork solutions to get by. This government took 3 years to start the strategy. We could be getting our first ships now. We aren't,

As asked before, how would the Government have started the program earlier with a blank sheet, after nearly two decades of failure based inertia? You keep failing to mention that............

As to "patchwork solutions", you fault the Government for a series of accidents, and then fault them for addressing said accidents, with both short term and medium term solutions?

[Smallc]

As asked before, how would the Government have started the program earlier with a blank sheet, after nearly two decades of failure based inertia? You keep failing to mention that............

Have I singled out this government alone on this file? The failures go all the way back to the last Conservative government with the destroyers and the Liberals with the destroyers, the reduction in supply ships, and the foot dragging. The Conservatives continued that. We could have had supply ships by now, if we had started in 2006.

Right now, the Conservatives are failing the CCG. This plan is going to leave us short of medium icebreakers, some of which are almost as old As the Louis S St Laurent.

You can make excuses for your party. I don't have to.

[Argus]

To refute and add context to the unfounded claim by CTV, from a leaked document years old, released during the election, "by chance", the same time Trudeau is announcing his policy platform for the navy.......

The point is the press release you quoted said essentially nothing, and committed to nothing.

[Smallc]

You're the same person that downplayed the smaller budget for the CAF saying it was a result of the end to conflict in Afghanistan. Of course, that doesn't reconcile with the fact that the budget has actually fallen below what the Conservatives were spending in real dollars their fist year in power, nor does it reconcile with the fact that the Conservatives own plan, the CFDS, is completely unaffordable at current spending levels. There is no plan to remedy that (the escalator only manages to keep spending just at inflation, and doesn't close the $3B gap that the AG says exists).

[Smallc]

The point is the press release you quoted said essentially nothing, and committed to nothing.

Because they can't. Derek says that the Irving is building 6 A/OPS. That may be true....or we may just get 5. There's a reason that the contract calls for 5 with 6 if budgets allow. There's also a reason that the Conservatives have only named 5 of the ships.

I frequent the Army.ca forum. No one there expects us to actually get 15 ships. Very few expect us to get even 12.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

The point is the press release you quoted said essentially nothing, and committed to nothing.

Its intent was quite clear, the final design of the CSC hasn't yet been selected, hence calls that it is over budget or underfunded are unfounded in reality.

[Derek 2.0]

Have I singled out this government alone on this file? The failures go all the way back to the last Conservative government with the destroyers and the Liberals with the destroyers, the reduction in supply ships, and the foot dragging. The Conservatives continued that. We could have had supply ships by now, if we had started in 2006.

Right now, the Conservatives are failing the CCG. This plan is going to leave us short of medium icebreakers, some of which are almost as old As the Louis S St Laurent.

You can make excuses for your party. I don't have to.

What "foot dragging".........again, your claims are unfounded in reality.

[Derek 2.0]

You're the same person that downplayed the smaller budget for the CAF saying it was a result of the end to conflict in Afghanistan. Of course, that doesn't reconcile with the fact that the budget has actually fallen below what the Conservatives were spending in real dollars their fist year in power, nor does it reconcile with the fact that the Conservatives own plan, the CFDS, is completely unaffordable at current spending levels. There is no plan to remedy that (the escalator only manages to keep spending just at inflation, and doesn't close the $3B gap that the AG says exists).

Could it be, like in the past, procurement is budgeted outside the annual defence budget???? I'm shocked!!!