Green economy-Aint economical

[Guest Peeves]

Photo op at a "green energy" plant that is shut down for lack of orders.

Paying out 10x the going rate for generated (wind-solar) energy.

Closing (they say) now a power generating plant that is still being built and looking at millions in penalties,just to get votes for two candidates.

How much more of this Fiberal government can we afford?

I'm sick of seeing an electric bill with line after line after line of 'cost' factors.

[Michael Hardner]

Hi Peeves - as I just posted on another thread minutes ago, name-calling of political parties and politicians isn't permitted here. It might help to provide a link as well, to illustrate what you're talking about.

[CitizenX]

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

I could point out to him that he could invest in solar panels for his roof and make 80.2 ¢/kWh

What is the Feed-in Tariff Program? http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/what-feed-tariff-program

[CitizenX]

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

I could point out to him that he could invest in solar panels for his roof and make 80.2 ¢/kWh

What is the Feed-in Tariff Program? http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/what-feed-tariff-program

[TimG]

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

You are infavour of transfering wealth from lower and middle class taxpayers to the upper class taxpayers that can afford to pay for these useless power sources? I am surprised. You usually complain about policies that favour the upper class and now you fully support it.

[capricorn]

Photo op at a "green energy" plant that is shut down for lack of orders.

Paying out 10x the going rate for generated (wind-solar) energy.

Closing (they say) now a power generating plant that is still being built and looking at millions in penalties,just to get votes for two candidates.

McGuinty's government is now being sued by a wind energy company for having cancelled offshore wind projects.

A company that planned to build a series of huge wind farms in Lake Ontario is suing the provincial government for $2.25-billion, claiming it unfairly cancelled all offshore wind projects earlier this year.

Trillium Power Wind Corp. spent millions of dollars over many years planning its projects, and had dutifully followed the government’s application processes, the suit claims, but the rug was pulled from under its feet when the province said it would not consider any offshore development until more scientific studies were done.

Trillium’s statement of claim, filed Wednesday in Ontario Superior Court, also alleges that the decision was made for purely political reasons, to appease wind-power critics in the run-up to next week’s provincial election.

---

The decisions were made in bad faith, to appease people in ridings near Lake Erie and Lake Huron, far from any of Trillium’s planned projects, the suit alleges. The province was well aware there were no water-quality issues relating to Trillium projects, so “the only science involved in the ... decision was political science,” the suit says.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/wind-energy-firm-trillium-power-sues-ontario/article2183816/

Not only has Dalton jumped the gun to get his green energy experiments off the ground, he's flip flopping all over the place to boost his chance at re-election. All the while, we taxpayers are stuck paying billions to subsidize the projects and, the billions in cancellation fees and lawsuits. It makes no difference who is elected, we're stuck with the bills.

[waldo]

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

I could point out to him that he could invest in solar panels for his roof and make 80.2 ¢/kWh

What is the Feed-in Tariff Program? http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/what-feed-tariff-program

You are infavour of transfering wealth from lower and middle class taxpayers to the upper class taxpayers that can afford to pay for these useless power sources? I am surprised. You usually complain about policies that favour the upper class and now you fully support it.

ya, ya, TimG... we completely get that your mindset/ideology is absolutely set against any policy avenue to enable the rapid development of renewable energy - we get that! However, short of your attempts to strike a class-warfare cord, particularly in line with this threads focus on Ontario, particularly in line with your specific reply in regards to Ontario's FIT... could you expand upon your claim of tax based "wealth transfer"?

[PIK]

Just got my hydro bill, I all most puked. I have learned to live a good life on little, but I can't keep up with the bills and I burn very little hydro. And if he gets elected a gain, it is going to double. What is wrong with the people of this province, that McGuinty can still win. At this rate I might have to sell my little home and move into a apt.

[Bonam]

At this rate I might have to sell my little home and move into a apt.

It's nice. I pay about $10/month for electricity living in an apartment.

[fellowtraveller]

It's nice. I pay about $10/month for electricity living in an apartment.

My nother also pays about $10/month for electricity living in an apartment.

The problem is that she also pays another $45/month in a long list of riders, fees and assorted service charges along with the $10.

[CitizenX]

You are infavour of transfering wealth from lower and middle class taxpayers to the upper class taxpayers that can afford to pay for these useless power sources? I am surprised. You usually complain about policies that favour the upper class and now you fully support it.

It's about converting to a green economy and saving the planet. Things you don't believe in. I'm sure you believe in the Rapture so you don't give a crap about the world.

Edited September 30, 2011 by CitizenX

[capricorn]

I'm sure you believe in the Rapture so you don't give a crap about the world.

CitizenX, I'm really curious. Why did you feel the need to inject religion in this thread?

[CitizenX]

CitizenX, I'm really curious. Why did you feel the need to inject religion in this thread?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how a climate change denier's mind works and I took a stab at a theory. If the rapture is upon us then the environment or the world doesn't matter right? Just a theory

Edited September 30, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

It's about converting to a green economy and saving the planet.

But the green "plan" will accomplish none of those goals. All it does is provide a way for people who are rich enough to be able afford the capital costs to make a huge profit at the expense of those who cannot afford the capital costs. It is regressive wealth transfer.

But I am glad you made that clear. For all of rhetoric on the rich we now know it is a self-serving sham. You are happy transfering wealth to the rich as long as it confirms with your green religion.

Your comment criticizing the people who believe in the 'rapture' in the same paragraph where you say you are doing something to 'save the planet' is hilarious. The planet does not need saving. Nothing humans do will harm the planet. Climate change is purely a human economic problem. By framing it as a question of 'saving the planet' you show that your beliefs are nothing more than the religious beliefs which you criticize in others.

Edited September 30, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Look TimG we've been through this before. You are a climate change denier and trying to discuss this matter is like talking to a wall.

Your other theories about me are just crazy

Edited September 30, 2011 by CitizenX

[waldo]

But the green "plan" will accomplish none of those goals. All it does is provide a way for people who are rich enough to be able afford the capital costs to make a huge profit at the expense of those who cannot afford the capital costs. It is regressive wealth transfer.

no need for you to bounce wildly away from this thread - you're ignoring a like clarification request to your bold pronouncement... a clarification request more particularly tailored to this thread's narrowed focus on Ontario/FIT. Again:

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

I could point out to him that he could invest in solar panels for his roof and make 80.2 ¢/kWh

What is the Feed-in Tariff Program?

http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/what-feed-tariff-program

You are infavour of transfering wealth from lower and middle class taxpayers to the upper class taxpayers that can afford to pay for these useless power sources? I am surprised. You usually complain about policies that favour the upper class and now you fully support it.

ya, ya, TimG... we completely get that your mindset/ideology is absolutely set against any policy avenue to enable the rapid development of renewable energy - we get that! However, short of your attempts to strike a class-warfare cord, particularly in line with this threads focus on

Ontario

, particularly in line with your specific reply in regards to

Ontario's FIT

... could you expand upon your claim of tax based "wealth transfer"?

Climate change is purely a human economic problem. By framing it as a question of 'saving the planet' you show that your beliefs are nothing more than the religious beliefs which you criticize in others.

and when you, quite liberally, quite often, label proponents of the AGW theory as engaging in "religion", rather than science.....

[TimG]

Look TimG we've been through this before. You are a climate change denier and trying to discuss this matter is like talking to a wall.

What does that have to do with the issue at hand?

I pointed out the practical consequence of the green energy plan is that wealth would be transferred from the poor to the rich.

Your response is 'this is ok because it conforms with the tenets of my religion'.

You think you can dismiss my criticisms because 'I am a denier' - a phrase that is the green religion's equivalent of 'apostate' or 'infidel'. WTF?

It is a free country. You are entitled to follow whatever religion you like. The problem only comes up because you insists on making people who don't believe in your 'saving gaia' cult pay for the useless stuff your religion demands.

Edited September 30, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

and when you, quite liberally, quite often, label proponents of the AGW theory as engaging in "religion", rather than science.

There is absolutely nothing scientific about the phrase 'saving the planet'. It is nothing but an expression of religious beliefs. When people talk science I will talk science. When people spew religious clap trap and call it science - I will point that out.

[waldo]

and when you, quite liberally, quite often, label proponents of the AGW theory as engaging in "religion", rather than science.....

There is absolutely nothing scientific about the phrase 'saving the planet'. It is nothing but an expression of religious beliefs. When people talk science I will talk science. When people spew religious clap trap and call it science - I will point that out.

whether you dislike another MLW member using the phrase, "saving the planet", is irrelevant to me pointing out that you quite regularly speak disparagingly of AGW proponents who haven't used that phrase... or like phrases. To you, arguing from the point of science you don't accept, that... is the very essence of your reverant bow to the alter of the fake, one-sided only, "skeptical gawd" - er, you know, McIntyre!

again, you selectively responded to an extract of my reply... ignoring, again (and again) the following repeated request for you to clarify your bold pronouncement on wealth transfer, vis-a-vis, Ontario/FIT:

no need for you to bounce wildly away from this thread - you're ignoring a like clarification request to your bold pronouncement... a clarification request more particularly tailored to this thread's narrowed focus on Ontario/FIT. Again:

I assuming that he is referring to Ontario's feed in tariff. Of which I totally agree with and wish was implemented in every province. BC is following Ontario's lead to a degree.

I could point out to him that he could invest in solar panels for his roof and make 80.2 ¢/kWh

What is the Feed-in Tariff Program?

http://fit.powerauthority.on.ca/what-feed-tariff-program

You are infavour of transfering wealth from lower and middle class taxpayers to the upper class taxpayers that can afford to pay for these useless power sources? I am surprised. You usually complain about policies that favour the upper class and now you fully support it.

ya, ya, TimG... we completely get that your mindset/ideology is absolutely set against any policy avenue to enable the rapid development of renewable energy - we get that! However, short of your attempts to strike a class-warfare cord, particularly in line with this threads focus on

Ontario

, particularly in line with your specific reply in regards to

Ontario's FIT

... could you expand upon your claim of tax based "wealth transfer"?

[Shady]

It's about converting to a green economy and saving the planet.

We can't run an economy the size of Ontario on so-called green technology. Would it be nice? Sure. But it's not possible. So unless you want to make our economy much smaller, which seems to be the goal of alarmists these days. Please don't sacrifice other people's standard of living, livelihood and well-being for your cute and idealistic dreams and aspirations.

Such technologies will be used and implemented when they're worthwhile.

[Oleg Bach]

Green=nature and natural resource - economy is the utilization of natural resourses to create material wealth. To create wealth you have to create waste (pollution) - thus you harm nature and are actually anti-green - so the whole thing is a hoax...a great contradiction in reality. Get rid of the term green and go back to preservation and stwardship of nature and our resourses...and mostly those who profit through the manipulation of natural resourses - should take part of that profit and clean up the mess they make generating profit - That would mean a little less profit and more real green .... Of course it is anti-economical - because if those who profess "green" would have to be responsible and curb greed to a degree...if you don't you get brown instead of green.

[PIK]

The biggest scam ever played on people and he is going to win. How the idiots of this province thing that making 50,000 more jobs to create the same amount of power as we are now, just blow me away..Now I expect these jobs will be unionized ,so we have to pay top dollar for it as usual. This green energy program is going to kill us. And when the wild rose of alberta wins and renegoitiate the transfers payments ,we in this have not province and quebec are going to pay big time.

[wyly]

The biggest scam ever played on people and he is going to win. How the idiots of this province thing that making 50,000 more jobs to create the same amount of power as we are now, just blow me away..Now I expect these jobs will be unionized ,so we have to pay top dollar for it as usual. This green energy program is going to kill us. And when the wild rose of alberta wins and renegoitiate the transfers payments ,we in this have not province and quebec are going to pay big time.

so you expect people working jobs to earn sub-standard pay?...I hear this same silly argument in Calgary, people complain how much others make without considering they bear the same living expenses, the same taxes, the same fuel costs, the same food costs, housing expenses, living in an expensive city cannot be done on minimum wage, wages must reflect cost of living...there is this skewed sense of entitlement where many feel that no one else deserves to be paid what they earn, that everyone but themselves are overpaid...

in Germany there has been such a increase in green(wind) power that cost is on par with coal based power sources...

[Wild Bill]

in Germany there has been such a increase in green(wind) power that cost is on par with coal based power sources...

Really? That statement is meaningless if we don't know the cost of their coal-based production. Who says it's cheap? Besides, what about all these reports we keep getting that some European countries are seeing wind farms shut down, due to host countries unable to afford to keep giving those subsidies? It would seem that wind power cannot be competitive on its own.

Even more, how the hell is that relevant to US? Every country's economy is different. We have enjoyed much cheaper power sources than most of Europe all along. If our citizens suddenly had an increase of 10 times in their electricity bill (guesstimated by Dalton McGuinty's MicroFit program payouts) they would immediately revolt and storm Queen's Park or else, (more likely for Canadians)... simply starve!

[Oleg Bach]

I say put motion detectors and small generators on the wrists of all chronic masterbating human beings - hook them up to the grid and problem solved!