Arab Spring: Arabs surprise the world, don't hate our freedoms

[Post To The Left]

Almost a year ago I first came to this forum and posted in response to what I thought was a one-sided portrayal by jbg slamming Arabs as lazy and corrupt while praising Jews as the leaders of innovation. Coincidentally this exactly mirrors the official Israeli Department of Education policy of doing the same thing portraying the Arabs as "refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer."

I debated with Jbg that Israeli success is a direct result of its free and democratic society which the Arabs have been prevented from having. To which Jbg replied:

What's stopping them?

The Americans won their freedom by their lonesome. Why are the Arabs so tolerant of corrupt and oppressive garbage?

Others got involved including the an obvious Ann Coulter disciple, DogOnPorch, who aped her line "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Get rid of Islam and I'm sure the glory that was Babylon, Assyria, Persia, et al, will return.

Oh what a difference a year makes. Jbg, and even I, could never have predicted that the Arabs would do exactly what jbg said they would never do overthrowing their "corrupt and oppressive garbage". Some peacefully like in Egypt and Tunisia others still bravely paying for their rights in blood in Syria and Libya.

Has the Arab Spring changed anyone's opinion that Arabs want corrupt regimes?

Edited September 22, 2011 by Post To The Left

[wyly]

Has the Arab Spring changed anyone's opinion that Arabs want corrupt regimes?

what? and deprive themselves of their cherished "they hate us for freedom" myth...

conservatives generally aren't deep thinkers they get their ideology handed down to them by their political overlords and Fox news...actually analyzing the news info and researching the background of issues objectively will never be in the cards for these types...their absolute silence in regards to Bob's fascist rants is telling as to their deeper ideological beliefs...

[bush_cheney2004]

....Oh what a difference a year makes. Jbg, and even I, could never have predicted that the Arabs would do exactly what jbg said they would never do overthrowing their "corrupt and oppressive garbage"...

That's OK...George Bush was saying that could happen years before....and nearly everybody laughed at him.

My own comment that it was "pathetic" for not having done so (in the case of Egypt) was met with much derision.

What matters is that the Mideast game has been changed....

[Guest American Woman]

Arab Spring: Arabs surprise the world, don't hate our freedoms - A year ago posters said Arabs didn't want freedom

Regardless of whether or not "they hate our freedoms" is an accurate sentiment, who said that about "Arabs??" It was said about terrorists.

Furthermore, I would think a name such as "Operation Iraqi Freedom" would quite clearly show that we don't believe "Arabs want corrupt regimes."

[Army Guy]

Oh what a difference a year makes. Jbg, and even I, could never have predicted that the Arabs would do exactly what jbg said they would never do overthrowing their "corrupt and oppressive garbage". Some peacefully like in Egypt and Tunisia others still bravely paying for their rights in blood in Syria and Libya.

Has the Arab Spring changed anyone's opinion that Arabs want corrupt regimes?

WOW...4 out of what 23 countries a nice start but it does nothing to prove your theory...

[wyly]

WOW...4 out of what 23 countries a nice start but it does nothing to prove your theory...

I don't think you are but you're deliberately playing dumb now...

[Guest Derek L]

That's OK...George Bush was saying that could happen years before....and nearly everybody laughed at him.

My own comment that it was "pathetic" for not having done so (in the case of Egypt) was met with much derision.

What matters is that the Mideast game has been changed....

Yeah, anyone who doubts that, can read the last couple chapters of his book……the very same book that came out prior to the start of the Arab Spring…..

[scribblet]

what? and deprive themselves of their cherished "they hate us for freedom" myth...

conservatives generally aren't deep thinkers they get their ideology handed down to them by their political overlords and Fox news...actually analyzing the news info and researching the background of issues objectively will never be in the cards for these types...their absolute silence in regards to Bob's fascist rants is telling as to their deeper ideological beliefs...

Liberals generally aren't deep thinkers they get their ideology handed down to them by their political overlords and the likes of the Star and CBC. actually analyzing the news info and researching the background of issues objectively will never be in the cards for these types...their absolute silence in regards to these fascist rants is telling as to their deeper ideological beliefs...

[Bob]

The usual myopic leftists, believing that inside every Muslim is a progressive liberal waiting to jump out, are pretending to understand the motivations behind the recent tensions misleadingly labeled as the "Arab Spring". As if all these people running through the streets are informed by deep desires for democracy, pluralism, freedom, and liberty.

Let's see how things develop before you folks pretend to understand Arabic/Islamic societies. These are deeply religious, conservative, anti-gay, anti-dissent, largely uneducated, and highly indoctrinated societies. Their heroes are not Western political philosophers who advocated for freedom, but figures of conquest like Muhammad and Ataturk.

[Bob]

That's OK...George Bush was saying that could happen years before....and nearly everybody laughed at him.

My own comment that it was "pathetic" for not having done so (in the case of Egypt) was met with much derision.

What matters is that the Mideast game has been changed....

I hope George Bush is right in his philosophy (that democracy truly is universal), but I'm not convinced he is. Democracy can't exist if there isn't widespread support for it ideals in a society, and Arabic/Islamic societies are hardly democratic by any measure. Obama echoed something similar in his recent address to the UNGA, where he labeled opinions held by some of us who are skeptical of the possibilities for democracy among Arabs/Muslims as "racist". Well, when you have societies that largely support execution of apostates, who desire a strong role for Islam in their governments and societies (theocracy to oppress those who view things differently), and support mass murder in order to achieve these ends... well, I think our skepticisim is well-founded.

Arab/Muslim democracy? I'll believe it when I see it, given that Islam is antithetical to true democracy.

[scribblet]

Has the Arab Spring changed anyone's opinion that Arabs want corrupt regimes?

Well, things aren't going all that well in Egypt now are they, as for Libya, they want Shariah law - moderate they say - sure... I doubt that we are helping them out in order for them to establish a barbaric non democratic rule of religious law, that in particular, discriminates against women.

Not that we expected a western style democracy, but....

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10320213-rebels-want-to-introduce-sharia-law-in-libya

more like an Arab winter

http://www.aina.org/news/20110508144114.htm

how's it going in Egypt now

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2011/September/Israel-to-Reopen-Egyptian-Embassy-after-Attack-/

http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Egypt-army-emergency-law-till-June-20110921

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/egypts-military-rulers-assert-wider-powers-in-wake-of-attack-on-israeli-embassy/2011/09/16/gIQADbTIYK_story.html

CAIRO — Egypt’s military government is sharply expanding emergency powers to detain people without evidence or official charges, in what critics are decrying as the most significant curbs on personal freedoms here since the fall of Hosni Mubarak.

[Wild Bill]

Well, things aren't going all that well in Egypt now are they, as for Libya, they want Shariah law - moderate they say - sure... I doubt that we are helping them out in order for them to establish a barbaric non democratic rule of religious law, that in particular, discriminates against women.

It doesn't seem quite clear if the Libyan people are truly looking for a fundamentalist, Shariah law government or some fanatic group is just trying to seize power during a time of upheaval.

Perhaps the majority of the people in the Arab countries of that region would actually prefer blue jeans and rock and roll. The problem is, the fanatics tend to have the guns and they actually ENJOY using them!

[eyeball]

Perhaps the majority of the people in the Arab countries of that region would actually prefer blue jeans and rock and roll.

That's probably even more threatening to the conservatism that seems to be on the rise in the west these days.

[scribblet]

It doesn't seem quite clear if the Libyan people are truly looking for a fundamentalist, Shariah law government or some fanatic group is just trying to seize power during a time of upheaval.

Perhaps the majority of the people in the Arab countries of that region would actually prefer blue jeans and rock and roll. The problem is, the fanatics tend to have the guns and they actually ENJOY using them!

Yup, but this is the interim leader talking about Islamic law, who knows what will happen to him and who the new leader will be - will there be elections - bet not.

I bet also that most of the average Libyans really do want just peace, a job, blue jeans and rock'n roll LOL doubt they'll get it.

[waldo]

Obama echoed something similar in his recent address to the UNGA, where he labeled opinions held by some of us who are skeptical of the possibilities for democracy among Arabs/Muslims as "racist".

earlier, I did watch a video of the recent Obama UNGA speech; I couldn't recall anything that approached your claim... so I've just had a quick run through the transcript; perhaps I am simply having trouble finding your claimed Obama "racist" labeling. The closest direct reference seems this rather innocuous sentence:

The youth are delivering a powerful rebuke to dictatorship, and rejecting the lie that some races, religions and ethnicities do not desire democracy

please advise - thanks in advance

[bush_cheney2004]

I hope George Bush is right in his philosophy (that democracy truly is universal), but I'm not convinced he is. Democracy can't exist if there isn't widespread support for it ideals in a society, and Arabic/Islamic societies are hardly democratic by any measure.

....Arab/Muslim democracy? I'll believe it when I see it, given that Islam is antithetical to true democracy.

OK...but the process was messy for lots of "western" nations too. I remember standing up at a war college poly-sci class over 30 years ago to ask a "really dumb" question: Could the Soviet Union/Russia collapse from internal conflict, just as it was formed from bread riots? People were so committed to a Cold War mindset that such a possibility was never even considered, and when it happened just years later the "west" was not prepared for it. Do they have "true democracy"? Maybe not, but it's a huge step in that direction.

Bush's "philosophy" isn't really a breakthrough...the "Arab Spring" was motivated by economics and labor conditions, and these fundamentals are at the root of any political movement regardless of the culture or religion.

Edited September 22, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Bob]

OK...but the process was messy for lots of "western" nations too. I remember standing up at a war college poly-sci class over 30 years ago to ask a "really dumb" question: Could the Soviet Union/Russia collapse from internal conflict, just as it was formed from bread riots? People were so committed to a Cold War mindset that such a possibility was never even considered, and when it happened just years later the "west" was not prepared for it. Do they have "true democracy"? Maybe not, but it's a huge step in that direction.

Bush's "philosophy" isn't really a breakthrough...the "Arab Spring" was motivated by economics and labor conditions, and these fundamentals are at the root of any political movement regardless of the culture or religion.

Time will tell. Like I said, I hope Bush is right, but I'm not convinced democracy is as universal as he says. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case if we take a snapshot of the world right now. I also know that Bush's perspective here wasn't new. I'm not sure if you've read, and I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but Bush did state something along the lines of Natan Sharansky's, "The Case for Democracy", being his favourite book and being greatly influential on his worldview. I read that book, and it basically argues (weakly, in my view) for the universalism of democracy. Unsurprisingly, Natan Sharasnky also stakes out an optimistic position on this so-called "Arab Spring", as if these Arab/Muslim mobs are somehow informed by Western values of democracy, freedom, and pluralism.

I just don't think Arabs/Muslims care about democracy. They are a society/civilization built on destroying all cultures they come into contact with. The religion is an ideology of conquest. They do not respect dissent. They do not value openness or real innovation, but prefer to live in some sort of bubble where they "maintain their (inferior) ways".

[Bob]

earlier, I did watch a video of the recent Obama UNGA speech; I couldn't recall anything that approached your claim... so I've just had a quick run through the transcript; perhaps I am simply having trouble finding your claimed Obama "racist" labeling. The closest direct reference seems this rather innocuous sentence:

please advise - thanks in advance

How is it possible that you state not hearing "anything that approached <my> claim", yet then post the very quote that I accurately described? Obama clearly implied that people like myself who do not accept the argument of the universality of democracy are somehow bigoted. Even a glance at the Middle East (with the exception of beautiful and civilized Israel, of course) reveals the lack of universality of the Western values of democracy and freedom.

[waldo]

Obama echoed something similar in his recent address to the UNGA, where he labeled opinions held by some of us who are skeptical of the possibilities for democracy among Arabs/Muslims as "racist".

earlier, I did watch a video of the recent Obama UNGA speech; I couldn't recall anything that approached your claim... so I've just had a quick run through the transcript; perhaps I am simply having trouble finding your claimed Obama "racist" labeling. The closest direct reference seems this rather innocuous sentence:

The youth are delivering a powerful rebuke to dictatorship, and

rejecting the lie

that some races, religions and ethnicities do not desire democracy

please advise - thanks in advance

How is it possible that you state not hearing "anything that approached <my> claim", yet then post the very quote that I accurately described? Obama clearly implied that people like myself who do not accept the argument of the universality of democracy are somehow bigoted. Even a glance at the Middle East (with the exception of beautiful and civilized Israel, of course) reveals the lack of universality of the Western values of democracy and freedom.

ok, so we have at least narrowed down the Obama quote/statement reference... now bold/colour highlighted above. As you state, that quote has you interpreting Obama as labeling opinions held, like yours as you self-describe and attach to this quote, as "racist". You've extended upon that Obama racist labeling to now include an Obama implication of "bigotry". It would seem clear that the only possible interpretative phrasing in the statement centers on the words, "rejecting the lie". In your assessment, you are attaching, to Obama, racist and bigotry labeling over his having used the words, "rejecting the lie". Have I understood and captured this correctly?

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Unsurprisingly, Natan Sharasnky also stakes out an optimistic position on this so-called "Arab Spring", as if these Arab/Muslim mobs are somehow informed by Western values of democracy, freedom, and pluralism.

...and I would argue that it's not about democracy at all....but the underlying economics that makes democracy possible. Members here argue ad nauseum about political issues and power struggles that would quickly be rendered moot if the underlying economic viability was severely diminished. In the Mideast, tiny Israel, without huge petroleum resources, is still a regional power primarily because of economics (PPP).

[Bob]

...and I would argue that it's not about democracy at all....but the underlying economics that makes democracy possible. Members here argue ad nauseum about political issues and power struggles that would quickly be rendered moot if the underlying economic viability was severely diminished. In the Mideast, tiny Israel, without huge petroleum resources, is still a regional power primarily because of economics (PPP).

Well, we can play chicken-and-egg with politics and economics. I agree with you, but Arab/Muslim societies don't seem to value freedom in the economic sphere any more than they do economics in the social sphere. Consider that Islam opposes interest collection/payment on loans. Without a basic system of lending where risk is paid for in the form of interest, you're going to have major economic issues. Basically, I don't think Arab/Muslim politics will allow for the system of economic freedom you're telling me is required for the development of democracy and other institutions of freedom.

I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't think there's any serious desire, or even basic understanding of, economics in the Arab/Muslim societies. They want Islam and think Allah will save them and bring back the glory days of conquest and subjugation of the infidels.

[Bob]

[/indent]

please advise - thanks in advance

ok, so we have at least narrowed down the Obama quote/statement reference... now bold/colour highlighted above. As you state, that quote has you interpreting Obama as labeling opinions held, like yours as you self-describe and attach to this quote, as "racist". You've extended upon that Obama racist labeling to now include an Obama implication of "bigotry". It would seem clear that the only possible interpretative phrasing in the statement centers on the words, "rejecting the lie". In your assessment, you are attaching, to Obama, racist and bigotry labeling over his having used the words, "rejecting the lie". Have I understood and captured this correctly?

Are you that dense? Clearly Obama implied that it is a bigoted position to reject the assertion that democracy is a universal ideal. Arabs/Muslims don't seem to have any desire to have Western democracy. They want Islamism. So, according to Obama, I'm a "liar". And why else would I lie unless I was, of course, a hater of Muslims (prejudiced, racist, bigoted, etc)?

Why is it taking so many posts for you to understand this? My point is incredibly simple.

[Post To The Left]

Consider that Islam opposes interest collection/payment on loans. Without a basic system of lending where risk is paid for in the form of interest, you're going to have major economic issues. Basically, I don't think Arab/Muslim politics will allow for the system of economic freedom you're telling me is required for the development of democracy and other institutions of freedom.

As you've said Sharia prohibits the fixed or floating payment or acceptance of specific interest but there are still Western Banks using Interest operating in the Arab world. Also some of biggest and newest banks are Islamic Banks that don't use interest to make their money. According to this report from the IMF website: "Total assets of Islamic banks worldwide are estimated at about $250 billion, and are expected to grow by about 15 percent a year (Choong and Liu, 2006; Ainley and others, 2007)."

If Arabs were given a chance they could access credit from Western Banks or the new emerging Islamic banks. Arabs have the knowledge of and access to Western style banking and there is also a growing Islamic banking sector. However in the past corrupt regimes, which tried to create Soviet style economies stifled any economic development. Why did the Tunisia uprising kick-off? Because a small business owner, a street vendor, wasn't allowed to operate under the old, corrupt regime.

Arabs have the know how to have a diversified economy but were always prevented from doing so my corrupt regimes propped up by Western Interests. Some of the west's most successful entrepreneurs are Arabs who once they enter a free and democratic society thrive under an open economy.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Bob]

Of course, their failures are because of the "Western Imperialism". Back to the basic point, I don't see Western democracy and freedom as universal ideals that will resonate widely in the Arab/Muslim world. That is why they will, in my view, remain inferior societies. Unless they change, of course.

[waldo]

Obama echoed something similar in his recent address to the UNGA, where he labeled opinions held by some of us who are skeptical of the possibilities for democracy among Arabs/Muslims as "racist".

earlier, I did watch a video of the recent Obama UNGA speech; I couldn't recall anything that approached your claim... so I've just had a quick run through the transcript; perhaps I am simply having trouble finding your claimed Obama "racist" labeling. The closest direct reference seems this rather innocuous sentence:

The youth are delivering a powerful rebuke to dictatorship, and

rejecting the lie

that some races, religions and ethnicities do not desire democracy

please advise - thanks in advance

How is it possible that you state not hearing "anything that approached <my> claim", yet then post the very quote that I accurately described? Obama clearly implied that people like myself who do not accept the argument of the universality of democracy are somehow bigoted. Even a glance at the Middle East (with the exception of beautiful and civilized Israel, of course) reveals the lack of universality of the Western values of democracy and freedom.

ok, so we have at least narrowed down the Obama quote/statement reference... now bold/colour highlighted above. As you state, that quote has you interpreting Obama as labeling opinions held, like yours as you self-describe and attach to this quote, as "racist". You've extended upon that Obama racist labeling to now include an Obama implication of "bigotry". It would seem clear that the only possible interpretative phrasing in the statement centers on the words, "rejecting the lie". In your assessment, you are attaching, to Obama, racist and bigotry labeling over his having used the words, "rejecting the lie". Have I understood and captured this correctly?

Are you that dense? Clearly Obama implied that it is a bigoted position to reject the assertion that democracy is a universal ideal. Arabs/Muslims don't seem to have any desire to have Western democracy. They want Islamism. So, according to Obama, I'm a "liar". And why else would I lie unless I was, of course, a hater of Muslims (prejudiced, racist, bigoted, etc)?

Why is it taking so many posts for you to understand this? My point is incredibly simple.

dense? The context wasn't your stated universality; clearly, Obama's several references to "some" (races, religions and ethnicities), in relation to Arab Spring, didn't imply universality. Obama was very pointedly clear, unlike yourself. You've also 'moved the goal posts' in terms of extending upon Obama's generalized reference to "democracy", to imply it inherently means, "Western democracy". Obama spoke, 'to the lie'... you presume to speak, "for the liars". Obama did not speak, "to the liars", nor presume upon, "liar motivations". You double-down on your earlier suggestions that Obama is labeling practitioners of the lie as, "racist and bigoted" (with you now adding "prejudiced" to the mix). Apparently, in your world, the foundation of that expressed lie couldn't simply reflect upon any of the mixed-bag grouping of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, mistakes, misconceptions, disagreement, error, etc.. Rather, you extend upon Obama's own intent/motivation to imply he is labeling, "the liars" (yourself by self-attachment), as "racist, bigoted, prejudiced", for rejecting the lie. Accordingly, I interpret you are mistaken on several fronts... that you misunderstand, misinterpret and misconceive... not just Obama.