Health care system needs to be reformed - NOW!

[sammykp]

I don't know why politicians don't get it. We need to reform our health care system or risk bancruptcy.

The Canadian Medical Association president says the same thing:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/canada-health-care-system-needs-radical-change-survive-181334238.html

Why is everybody so afraid of introducing user-fees and private pay?

[William Ashley]

Paying. Government will still tax the taxpayer.

My stance is that a "National Health Insurance Plan" is provided by the Federal government to cover the real cost. Individuals unable to pay take part in a special program that requires a certain lifestyle to be eligible, such as following medical advice of physicians, and other statistical lowering of cost (with reason in mind). While transfers to the provinces for health are scrapped, and taxes adjusted accordingly. Individuals meanwhile share a per capita cost based upon their policy group. Individuals who don't use their policy get a rebate, while those that do may be upgraded to a higher policy class, however there is a cutoff based upon potential hardship, or poverty for payment rates. Provinces meanwhile can institute their own health care costs if needed to meet local demand at the provincial level.

A portion of funds raised would go for generic health purchases, purchases of medical patents to lower cost of medical materials on an across the board cost saving, and funding in demand medical technology construction - and leasing options.

There are user fees, and private pay is an option at clinics etc...

It is fine for those who can. Personally if people want to pay for health services they can. There is however the "desperation factor" in some cases. People dying might be willing to pay anything for a chance not to go to hell, and some doctors may take that.

I think that it works in some cases, but they will charge and the poor people will not get timely service. Good if there were extra doctors, of which there are not. There arn't enough doctors to go around, if you remove the lineal means of treatment the less money you have the less service you have. The medicare system was instituted to really insure everyone had access to health care, and that financial restrictions didn't impede that.

Many doctors will go to higher pay private service if given the chance I would guess.

In my system it is a little of both worlds. Part of the key however is getting more doctors to go around, or implementing technology that will free up doctors.

It is quite problematic when the government is requiring renewal of doctors to fill out forms for "permanent conditions" take for instance lactose intolerance for the "special needs" diet under Ontario social assistance, or reconfirming someone is paralyzed after being declared permanently paralyzed for the disability tax benefit every year. It would be much better to have an update provided from the new diagnosing doctor, or read the journal indicating the medical miracle, rather than requiring a person to be told again they are disabled permanently.

While medical discoveries are allowing progress in some previously permanent disabilities,there are many that are not "cured". And now you need to tie up doctors time filling out essentially redundant forms what effectively comes down to - nope no miracle of science here.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

[wyly]

because neither work...user fees only discourage those who need care the most from seeing an MD delaying treatment, delayed treatment is more expensive than early treatment...private pay will not increase the number of MDs...

[Battletoads]

Why is everybody so afraid of introducing user-fees and private pay?

They don't want to be fiscally ruined by a medical problem?

[Socialist in Oil Country]

They don't want to be fiscally ruined by a medical problem?

This

When the only developed country that has private health care on Earth is also one of the least healthy and worst healthcare systems among developed countries, I think it's safe to say to hell with that nonesense

Edited August 25, 2011 by Socialist in Oil Country

[Sir Bandelot]

The problem is not solved by user fees, or where the money comes from. With the current problem, no matter how much money is poured in or where the source comes from, that money will never be enough and will get used up, and the problem will persist.

The problem is lack of proper oversight for use of funds, lack of accountability in hospitals, managerial bloat. The problem is not caused by the health care worker at the front line. They are NOT overpaid. The problem is caused by incompetent and sometimes even corrupt management in hospitals and in medical associations.

These people make the biggest incomes, and do the least amount of work. You could get rid of half of them and it would have no impact on the front line. The money saved could be used to buy more equipment and pay for more health care workers. Those are the people who deliver the actual health care!

Instead we have seen services closed down, reduced to the point of being impractical and yet, management bloat continues to increase. That is the problem with our healthcare, too many hogs at the trough.

[Guest Derek L]

This

When the only developed country that has private health care on Earth is also one of the least healthy and worst healthcare systems among developed countries, I think it's safe to say to hell with that nonesense

Worst healthcare system? Are you meaning the States? Why did/does Canada have a problem of doctors and nurses going to the States?

If I needed Knee surgery, I could probably find a hospital that could perform said surgery within a week down there…(Hospitals in Utah are nice)…Here, unless I hurt it at work, I’d be waiting months…….

There’s nothing wrong with healthcare, in and of itself in the States.

[Moonlight Graham]

They don't want to be fiscally ruined by a medical problem?

How would a 2-tier system ruin any patient financially? The people with money get private care, the ones that don't get public.

User fees are a bit controversial too. If you introduce them, it hurts the poor the most because they will avoid seeking care while the people who have money won't much give a rip and will begrudgingly pay it but go anyways. The poor are already less healthy than higher income earners. If user fees are implemented there should be a waiver for people with a certain income, how they'd do that I have no idea.

Also, there's already defacto user fees in many hospitals and office buildings because they make you pay for parking. Both my GP and my nearest hospital does that.

[Guest Derek L]

How would a 2-tier system ruin any patient financially? The people with money get private care, the ones that don't get public.

User fees are a bit controversial too. If you introduce them, it hurts the poor the most because they will avoid seeking care while the people who have money won't much give a rip and will begrudgingly pay it but go anyways. The poor are already less healthy than higher income earners. If user fees are implemented there should be a waiver for people with a certain income, how they'd do that I have no idea.

Also, there's already defacto user fees in many hospitals and office buildings because they make you pay for parking. Both my GP and my nearest hospital does that.

I remember reading an article a year or so back (forget where) that talked about sending patients to India for surgery to decrease wait times……..I seem to recall the study figured a cost of a procedure in Canada would equal the cost of flying the patient and a family member to India, putting them up, paying for the procedure, and any major post-op rehab………

Perhaps something like that should be investigated?

And/or, allowing people that can pay for private surgeries, to be able to pay the balance of the cost with their MSRP “paying” the equal amount as to what it would cost within our healthcare system…….

[Moonlight Graham]

Worst healthcare system? Are you meaning the States? Why did/does Canada have a problem of doctors and nurses going to the States?

If I needed Knee surgery, I could probably find a hospital that could perform said surgery within a week down there…(Hospitals in Utah are nice)…Here, unless I hurt it at work, I’d be waiting months…….

There’s nothing wrong with healthcare, in and of itself in the States.

Then why do they usually rank lower than Canada and many other developed countries in many health-related areas, including health care systems? In 2000 the WHO ranked them 37th for HC systems, even though the US was #1 in per capita HC spending.

If you have the money, i'd say the US is likely the best place on earth for healthcare. If you're an average joe or poor, you can get f'ed. I have friends from Tennessee, the dad is a doctor & his wife needs hip surgery. She got an operation scheduled within a few weeks, but they don't have the best insurance plan (even though the husband is a doctor!) so she has to pay $6000 out of her pocket for the deductible in order to get the surgery. Lucky he's an MD, how many people have $6000 bucks?!?

[Guest Derek L]

Then why do they usually rank lower than Canada and many other developed countries in many health-related areas, including health care systems? In 2000 the WHO ranked them 37th for HC systems, even though the US was #1 in per capita HC spending.

If you have the money, i'd say the US is likely the best place on earth for healthcare. If you're an average joe or poor, you can get f'ed. I have friends from Tennessee, the dad is a doctor & his wife needs hip surgery. She got an operation scheduled within a few weeks, but they don't have the best insurance plan (even though the husband is a doctor!) so she has to pay $6000 out of her pocket for the deductible in order to get the surgery. Lucky he's an MD, how many people have $6000 bucks?!?

Thats the crux of the argument I guess..........If you can pay for it, why not?

[Bonam]

Why does everyone assume adding a private component to Canada's health care system means tossing everything out and copying the US system? This is a blatant and extreme red herring. Many European health care systems, which routinely rank better than Canada, have both a public and a private component. When people talk about a private option in Canada, that is the model we should be looking to. One that involves the private sector, saves public money, and improves the overall quality of healthcare.

[Sir Bandelot]

Why does everyone assume adding a private component to Canada's health care system means tossing everything out and copying the US system? This is a blatant and extreme red herring. Many European health care systems, which routinely rank better than Canada, have both a public and a private component. When people talk about a private option in Canada, that is the model we should be looking to. One that involves the private sector, saves public money, and improves the overall quality of healthcare.

It's the thin end of the wedge.

[Sandy MacNab]

Why does everyone assume adding a private component to Canada's health care system means tossing everything out and copying the US system? This is a blatant and extreme red herring. Many European health care systems, which routinely rank better than Canada, have both a public and a private component. When people talk about a private option in Canada, that is the model we should be looking to. One that involves the private sector, saves public money, and improves the overall quality of healthcare.

For sure! Health care delivered publically and privately BUT totally publically funded is working in other parts of the 1st world. Canada must look seriously at those system and improve on them. I'm one who believe we can; others (example, The Friends of Medicare) obviously think we're too stupid.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thats the crux of the argument I guess..........If you can pay for it, why not?

Indeed...such expense in the US was good enough for Chretien, Stronach, and Williams. I can always find a Canadian license plate at the Mayo Clinic parking lot!

[Guest Derek L]

I've no problem with public healthcare, but I believe in options........If I broke my hip, and it looked like I'd miss a season of fishing/hunting/golf waiting for my surgery date, and I could pay six grand to have it sped up, I'd have no problem with that.

I'd be even in favour of setting up a program similar to Canada student loans…….if a person can’t afford the up front cost of a sped up form of healthcare delivery, they could get a low interest loan from the government to pay for it…….with any interest earned by the government going back directly into public healthcare…..

I’d think that with a percentage of Canadians cue jumping and going to private hospitals, wouldn’t this also ease the strain on the public system?

[Sandy MacNab]

Indeed...such expense in the US was good enough for Chretien, Stronach, and Williams. I can always find a Canadian license plate at the Mayo Clinic parking lot!

If the ass-holes who are running Canada's hell-th care dog and pony show don't get busy you'll see a lot more across the northern USA. If I were sick enough I wouldn't hesitate to go south. In fact I have an ex-client, a young doctor who is practicing in California.

[Moonlight Graham]

For sure! Health care delivered publically and privately BUT totally publically funded is working in other parts of the 1st world. Canada must look seriously at those system and improve on them.

Isn't that the system we have now? Many doctors have private practices that are publicly paid for through insurance. Publicly funded, privately delivered.

[Moonlight Graham]

I’d think that with a percentage of Canadians cue jumping and going to private hospitals, wouldn’t this also ease the strain on the public system?

Exactly. For me, that's the key argument. It seems like mostly a win-win to me. Those that can pay get their healthcare faster, while at the same time this frees up spots/facilities for those using public care.

But the thing is that doctors doing the private thing would be taken way from the public system, possibly weakening it. And there would need to be controls on who and how many doctors could go fully private so that the public system doesn't go to poop. You don't want all the best doctors going private.

The ideal to have equal healthcare access for all people regardless of income is noble and I totally get that, but in the end what is most important is what makes Canadians as a whole more healthy, both those who can pay privately and those who can't.

[Guest Derek L]

Exactly. For me, that's the key argument. It seems like mostly a win-win to me. Those that can pay get their healthcare faster, while at the same time this frees up spots/facilities for those using public care.

But the thing is that doctors doing the private thing would be taken way from the public system, possibly weakening it. And there would need to be controls on who and how many doctors could go fully private so that the public system doesn't go to poop. You don't want all the best doctors going private.

The ideal to have equal healthcare access for all people regardless of income is noble and I totally get that, but in the end what is most important is what makes Canadians as a whole more healthy, both those who can pay privately and those who can't.

Fair point regarding doctors going just after private healthcare……….I’d think though that the vast majority of Canadians would still use the public system, namely on cost grounds, so there still would be a larger “market” with the public system……..Also factor in billing, a doctor in the public system would have his income guaranteed as opposed to potentially having to deal with invoicing bills & collectors.

I think in the end, the most positive results would be achieved with allowing Canadians, doctors included, as many options as possible.

[Socialist in Oil Country]

Worst healthcare system? Are you meaning the States? Why did/does Canada have a problem of doctors and nurses going to the States?

If I needed Knee surgery, I could probably find a hospital that could perform said surgery within a week down there…(Hospitals in Utah are nice)…Here, unless I hurt it at work, I’d be waiting months…….

There’s nothing wrong with healthcare, in and of itself in the States.

The healthcare itself is not the problem, it is the system

Their SYSTEM of delivering care is one of the worst among developed nations, that much is indisputable.

If you are a rich individual, it IS one of the best. Otherwise, I would much rather be in Canada (and also I would much rather be in most of Europe than Canada) in regards to healthcare

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Edited August 25, 2011 by Socialist in Oil Country

[Bryan]

I can always find a Canadian license plate at the Mayo Clinic parking lot!

I can always find American license plates in the St. Boniface Hospital parking lot too.

[wyly]

try understand some very simple math here, two systems cannot work in Canada...any MDs lost to a private system will leave those of us who cannot afford private care with longer much longer waits and with fewer MDs...

why this can work in many european countries is because of their educational systems, they produce more MDs than we do...Canada is ranked 81st in MDs per thousand people at 1.91 per K, just ahead of Libya at 1.9...the US has 2.67 per K, euro leaders like France have 3.5 per K, Denmark 3.4, Germany 3.53, sweden 3.58, Netherlands 3.92, and Norway 4.08...a private system will remove MD's from a system that has a shortage as it is...wait times for those who cannot afford private care(most of us) the wait times will only grow worse...

and despite our shortage of MDs we have one of the longest lived population of any country, our MDs are excellent, our healthcare system is excellent, what we need is more funding for education of MDs and Nurses...

[Remiel]

Why does everyone assume adding a private component to Canada's health care system means tossing everything out and copying the US system? This is a blatant and extreme red herring. Many European health care systems, which routinely rank better than Canada, have both a public and a private component. When people talk about a private option in Canada, that is the model we should be looking to. One that involves the private sector, saves public money, and improves the overall quality of healthcare.

You should get out your map, Bonam. Take a look at where Canada is, then take a look at where Europe is, where the US is, and compare them. Geography is not a negligible influence on changes to the health care system.

[Guest Derek L]

The healthcare itself is not the problem, it is the system

Their SYSTEM of delivering care is one of the worst among developed nations, that much is indisputable.

If you are a rich individual, it IS one of the best. Otherwise, I would much rather be in Canada (and also I would much rather be in most of Europe than Canada) in regards to healthcare

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Only the rich in the United States get healthcare? Why do the majority of Americans support overturning Obamacare? Why are States fighting it? I was unaware the majority of Americans are dieing in the streets due to their worlds worst healthcare system……