hot sauce/cold shower = child abuse?

[dre]

They don't. Especially not young kids. Even adolescents don't have fully formed minds and thinking processes.

intellectual development

Neither do adults. Hell... about half of them are of below average intelligence. Most of them have minds fit for manual labor.

[dre]

Regardless, Argus, I don't believe you should be using tools against your child's body when executing punishments. And I don't buy your philosophy that they somehow deserve it or it's ok to physically assault a child because their minds aren't "fully functioning". If that's the case, then it would be ok to physically punish seniors with dementia or it would be perfectly ok to physically punish those with mental disabilities for no other reason than their minds aren't "fully functioning". If anything, that's more reason not to be physical with the person because they're not entirely capable of understanding their actions.

The problem is that most people CAN use very mild physical punishment reasonably or effectively. But lots of people can't which is why we ended up with laws against it in a lot of places.

[cybercoma]

The problem is that most people CAN use very mild physical punishment reasonably or effectively. But lots of people can't which is why we ended up with laws against it in a lot of places.

And it's up to judicial discretion to decide what kind of sentence or conviction (if there's no jury) the circumstances of the case deserve. If the judge feels the punishment was "reasonable", then (s)he will be more lenient in his/her sentencing. This is why mandatory minimums are terrible. It legislates discretion away from judges, who are the only ones that here the particulars of any given case. You can't legislate for all possible circumstances.

[Wilber]

W

Man, every time I read these threads here, I can't help but conclude that everyone on this forum is so old they can't remember even a shred of living their childhood. They can't remember that they actually had thoughts when they were kids, that they could think, that they had desires and opinions.

Of course they have desires and opinions. Part of growning up is learning that all desires and opinions cannot be satisfied, nor will they be tolerated by those who have to share the same world with them

But to a kid, they have the same free will and sense of personal freedom as any other human, and will naturally rebel when someone attempts to control them, punish them, or restrict their movement against their will.

Unless they learn that personal freedoms are not unlimited, eventually their freedom will be restricted big time. It's called jail.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Wilber

[Guest American Woman]

Argus, on 03 September 2011 - 05:34 PM, said: They don't. Especially not young kids. Even adolescents don't have fully formed minds and thinking processes.

Neither do adults. Hell... about half of them are of below average intelligence. Most of them have minds fit for manual labor.

IQ and fully functioning brain are two different things. Children do not have the reasoning capabilities of adults because they do not have a fully developed brain, which doesn't mean children have a low IQ.

Furthermore, half of adults do not have below average intelligence. About 50% have average intelligence while about 25% have above average and about 25% have below. link

[Guest American Woman]

Unless they learn that personal freedoms are not unlimited, eventually their freedom will be restricted big time. It's called jail.

I have to wonder how many adults spend an inordinate amount of time in jail because they never got a stiff enough punishment as a child. Some children need harsher punishment than others - kids aren't all the same so they don't all react to the same punishment in the same way.

The mother said that putting soap in his mouth did nothing for this particular child. For others it would, and that would be the end. What does one do when 'traditional' punishments don't faze a child? Give up? And how would that ultimately help the child?

We've got people here referring to "the hottest hot sauce one can find," when watching the video shows that either wasn't the case or the child has a high tolerance to hot sauce. Furthermore, it wasn't "forced down his throat" as he didn't even swallow it. As I already pointed out, the mother had him spit it out in the sink after a minute or two.

And the cold shower has somehow become "ice cold," being exposed to "hypothermia." As has been pointed out, water from a tap doesn't get that cold.

It's all being made into something worse than it was. Why? To protect the child? Or to make oneself feel good? And what happens when this child becomes an out of control adult? The care and concern disappears - and the adult child faces jail/prison.

Kids get away with so much these days because adults' hands are tied. Kids know this. They get arrested and the get probation - which doesn't faze most of them in the least, while a weekend in jail might keep them out of more trouble.

My daughter worked with jr high and sr high "at risk" kids in LA. "At risk" means behavioral problems. She wasn't certified, so she was an aid. The kids would get physical with the teachers. One teacher struck back and was immediately let go so she became the teacher even though she wasn't certified. They didn't have enough teachers - they couldn't get enough teachers. When she came home for visits she had huge bruises - and all she could do back is get in these kids faces and get them 'up against the wall' so to speak. And she's small - about the size of the students.

So what's an appropriate punishment? Expelling them? That's the last thing that would help them - and likely the first thing that they would want. It's likely what got them in that school in the first place.

So what do we do to protect these kids from a life of jail/prison? We, as adults, are responsible for raising kids to the point where they can lead a productive adult life. Are we doing that if we are afraid to discipline them? If we give them free will because kids have desires and rebel when they are punished? Seems to me that would be the easy way out. This mother was searching for an effective punishment for her child - rather than just giving up on him - and she didn't resort to beating him. She moved beyond a bar of soap to hot sauce - which is a food product of choice in many instances. She had him take a cold shower, which while uncomfortable, posed no danger.

As for for grounding or having privileges taken away being a more appropriate punishment - I would have rather endured hot sauce for a couple of minutes and a cold shower that's over within minutes to being denied time with my friends or having my things taken away from me for an extended period of time. It's all different with different kids. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another - and vice versa.

[jbg]

And it's up to judicial discretion to decide what kind of sentence or conviction (if there's no jury) the circumstances of the case deserve. If the judge feels the punishment was "reasonable", then (s)he will be more lenient in his/her sentencing. This is why mandatory minimums are terrible. It legislates discretion away from judges, who are the only ones that here the particulars of any given case. You can't legislate for all possible circumstances.

As soon as judges or juries are involved the family's being micromanaged by the State. The judicial system should be involved only with severe abuse, not minor physical force or contact.

[Wilber]

IAs for for grounding or having privileges taken away being a more appropriate punishment - I would have rather endured hot sauce for a couple of minutes and a cold shower that's over within minutes to being denied time with my friends or having my things taken away from me for an extended period of time. It's all different with different kids. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another - and vice versa.

We were fortunate that was the way it was with our kids but I realize that some parents are not so lucky. Aside from a rare swat on the ass to get their attention if they really got out of control, we never found the need for any kind of corporal punishment. Denying them what they liked the most was enough to get the results we expected. You feel like a real shit when it becomes necessary but that goes with the territory.

I'm also a believer that a kid's choice of friends is a huge influence on how they turn out. I don't know how much a parent can do about this. For the most part, out kids chose wisely and still have many of the same friends now they are in their thirties.

[cybercoma]

As soon as judges or juries are involved the family's being micromanaged by the State. The judicial system should be involved only with severe abuse, not minor physical force or contact.

You're right. They shouldn't. That's another reason I think this case of the "cold shower" and "hot sauce" was a lot worse than some people are trying to play it off as being. For it to get to the point that a prosecutor was going to take it up and a court wasn't going to dismiss it, it had to be serious enough for consideration.

[betsy]

They don't. Especially not young kids. Even adolescents don't have fully formed minds and thinking processes.

intellectual development

That's true. Why are minors treated so differently than adults - because they've not achieved the full capacity that of an adult.

[jbg]

Kids get away with so much these days because adults' hands are tied. Kids know this. They get arrested and the get probation - which doesn't faze most of them in the least, while a weekend in jail might keep them out of more trouble.

************************

As for for grounding or having privileges taken away being a more appropriate punishment - I would have rather endured hot sauce for a couple of minutes and a cold shower that's over within minutes to being denied time with my friends or having my things taken away from me for an extended period of time. It's all different with different kids. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another - and vice versa.

The problem with grounding is that kids can circumvent it rather easily. They can sneak on the computer or TV when parents are at work or assisting a sibling with homework. As for the issue of mild corporal punishment, it is swift and immediate. It gets the message across. A deferred penalty such as grounding or suspension of privileges does not.

I'm also a believer that a kid's choice of friends is a huge influence on how they turn out. I don't know how much a parent can do about this. For the most part, out kids chose wisely and still have many of the same friends now they are in their thirties.

I agree. That being said, when I was in Second through Eighth Grade, during any one year, only at most four kids out of a graduating class of about 125 was "worthwhile". Almost all the other ones were either neutral or troublemakers. And this was in an affluent mostly Jewish school district.

In Ninth through Twelfth Grade things were different. Our incoming class (merging into a far larger population) had a deservedly bad reputation. It took till spring of Ninth Grade to really start making decent acquaintences from the "other" Junior High School. In Tenth Grade I made many of the friendships I have made for life. As adults, some of those remember the reputation of my incoming class as ranging from rancid to boring.

I personally decided to overhaul my real life "friends list" during the winter of my sophomore year. As they say, a picture tells a thousand words. When my father passed on, my "growing up" friends' condolence notes were written in gibberish; those from the "other school" that merged in were written at near college level.

So, the choice of friends is not always that of the child or parents. I knew the deficiencies and did what I could to overcome them. It was a struggle.

Edited September 6, 2011 by jbg

[bloodyminded]

And what in God's name would make you think that??

Yes, kids desire things and they don't like parental guidance (all the time - sometimes they do - it gives them a sense of security), or punishment, but they are too young to know what's best for them and they have to be taught and they have to learn. Which is why kids live with their parents, rather than live on their own, renting an apartment, et al.

Seriously, when I read comments such as yours I can't help but conclude that you're so young you can't even begin to understand what raising kids involves.

Actually, I thought Bonam was right. He wasn't making any sort of wild claims about parenting; only that it is perfect natural--and reasonable--for children to object to restraints, punishments, and things that affect their bodily freedom.

[Guest American Woman]

Actually, I thought Bonam was right. He wasn't making any sort of wild claims about parenting; only that it is perfect natural--and reasonable--for children to object to restraints, punishments, and things that affect their bodily freedom.

What he made is a wild claim about what we do or don't remember. So I made a wild claim back, since that's the aspect of the post I was clearly responding to. My response is just as appropriate/accurate as his. Because no one has claimed that kids DON'T object to punishment et al.

Edited September 6, 2011 by American Woman

[wyly]

physical punishment of kids is always 100% wrong, if you need to physically punish a child you've failed as a parent...four kids and six occasions of physical punishment and each time it was my fault, I lost my cool and I'm still ashamed of my behavior, I failed as a parent on those occasions...with my youngest I've done better, 12 yrs and never physically disciplined, I've finally got the hang of being a dad...

[wyly]

So, say I shoved hot sauce down your throat because I didn't like your opinion.

I would get charged with assault.

I don't think it's going any further to say that it was child abuse.

Purposefully inflicting pain as punishment. Spanking is more mild of a punishment than hot sauce.

Hot sauce burns for a long time, especially in a young mouth. A spanking only stings for a few seconds.

hey if I spank (just a little swat) the hottie barista at starbucks for spilling hot coffee on my hand again, do you think I can use physical discipline as an excuse... Edited September 20, 2011 by wyly

[Oleg Bach]

Odd how they will toment the adopted spawn of others but not even consider harming their own. This person is a nut - and if they could would torture kittens in the name of authority. Why not pour batter acid down the kids throat and put tie them to an side of an oven on a hot day? Jeeez to think this sadist is walking around professing normalcy.. What has the world come too - oh yah - when Dick Cheney says it's okay the drones gladly agree that torture is a goooood thing - jerks!

[Guest American Woman]

hey if I spank (just a little swat) the hottie barista at starbucks for spilling hot coffee on my hand again do you think a can use physical discipline as an excuse...

I suppose it might depend on whether he likes it or not ........

[GostHacked]

A spanking is based on the use of brute force every bit as much as swallowing hot sauce - or having one's mouth washed out with soap. Yet you feel it's still needed sometimes.

I am late to this thread .. but yes, I agree with spanking to get the message across, not a hurt the child. I got a spanking when I deserved it. A spanking does not need to be an outright assult like hit on a child to get the message across. A child normally won't understand or think about consequences of said actions. I know I did not as a kid. So trying to explain why I was in the wrong, would most likely have been lost on me.

A tap on the ass to get the message across. A child understands pain, and if pain is associated with doing something stupid, then the chances of them doing something stupid are reduced. It would be a last resort, but I'd rather have all options on the table.

[wyly]

A tap on the ass to get the message across. A child understands pain, and if pain is associated with doing something stupid, then the chances of them doing something stupid are reduced. It would be a last resort, but I'd rather have all options on the table.

and you have proof that this works? that there are not other parenting methods that are more suitable? where do you get the idea that parents know anything about raising children? is there a school you attend for child rearing?...we have prisons full of inmates who were obviously not deterred by physical correction from their parents...

inflicting physical pain is bad parenting, if a similar action is not permitted with adults it's definitely unacceptable with children...I had a father who thought physical punishment was ok because he endured it as well, I disowned him and to this day I still fight repeating the behaviour, that he inflicted on me...

[wyly]

from my Uni days I recall a study on the effects of physical punishment on children...the study found that whether children were or were not physically disciplined it had no preventative influence on later adult behaviour...so if it has no effect why do it, it serves no purpose other to inflict unnecessary pain and mental anguish in the child...the study found children physically disciplined carried on with the behaviour with their children and they tended to have less empathy...as well when we strike our kids we send a message to them that striking others is acceptable behaviour when you lose your cool...

[GostHacked]

and you have proof that this works?

No, I do not have proof. It's based on my own personal experience. I got my ass spanked when I did something wrong. I deserved it when I did screw up. My dad was not abusive otherwise. I have a very good relationship with my parents.

that there are not other parenting methods that are more suitable?

Did you miss the part where I said it should be used as a last resort? Of course you did.

where do you get the idea that parents know anything about raising children? is there a school you attend for child rearing?...we have prisons full of inmates who were obviously not deterred by physical correction from their parents...

inflicting physical pain is bad parenting,

So is verbal abuse, those psychological scars last much much longer. But it's all in how it is administered. These days parents seem ok with having the state tell them how to be a parent, absolving themselves of responsibility for their child's actions.

if a similar action is not permitted with adults it's definitely unacceptable with children...I had a father who thought physical punishment was ok because he endured it as well, I disowned him and to this day I still fight repeating the behaviour, that he inflicted on me...

My dad was abused by my Opa, and my father has disowned him. With that in mind, my father was conscious of his actions and restrained himself quite a bit when dealing with me and my sister. That kind of thing does not go away overnight, that will only change with each new generation. I hope to never have to spank my future children as well, but if all else is failing, what else is left?

[wyly]

No, I do not have proof. It's based on my own personal experience. I got my ass spanked when I did something wrong. I deserved it when I did screw up. My dad was not abusive otherwise. I have a very good relationship with my parents.

and how do you that it couldn't have been better without the abuse? do you think you'd be a criminal now without those physical corrections? they didn't do any good for me other than instill a lifetime of hate for my father...

Did you miss the part where I said it should be used as a last resort? Of course you did.

no i didn't ...did you miss the point when I said was doesn't do any good...what it teaches kids is violence is acceptable behaviour in order to influence others...

So is verbal abuse, those psychological scars last much much longer. But it's all in how it is administered. These days parents seem ok with having the state tell them how to be a parent, absolving themselves of responsibility for their child's actions.

because the experts(not the state) know more than parents, being able to make babies does not come with automatic parenting skills...

My dad was abused by my Opa, and my father has disowned him. With that in mind, my father was conscious of his actions and restrained himself quite a bit when dealing with me and my sister. That kind of thing does not go away overnight, that will only change with each new generation. I hope to never have to spank my future children as well, but if all else is failing, what else is left?

ah so you have no children, get back to me the first time you swat your kid and think "what a great parenting skills I've got, this is easy" then an hour later you'll clam down and think was that necessary...there is always a better way, you owe it to your kids to find it... Edited September 20, 2011 by wyly

[Bonam]

and how do you that it couldn't have been better without the abuse? do you think you'd be a criminal now without those physical corrections? they didn't do any good for me other than instill a lifetime of hate for my father...

If your "physical corrections" instilled a "lifetime of hate" for your father they were probably a bit more than the occasional light spanking. If you were severely physically/sexually abused as a child that certainly explains your stance on the issue. It doesn't mean, however, that some limited physical punishment now and then might not be effective or optimal, nor does it mean any physical discipline is automatically abuse.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

Does it change anyone's opinionsi when a teacher uses hot sauce to punish students?

Gomez allegedly poured the hot sauce on crayons to punish autistic students for putting them in their mouths