hot sauce/cold shower = child abuse?

[Guest American Woman]

A mother in anchorage was found guilty of child abuse for punishing her adopted 7 year old son for lying and acting up in school by giving him hot sauce and making him take a cold shower. She taped the punishment (or rather had her daughter tape it while she carried it out) after having written to Dr. Phil saying she needed help dealing with her child and was told they'd need to see a video of her punishing him. The video went viral, she was reported to the authorities in Anchorage, and arrested and found guilty of child abuse.

While the punishment may be unconventional, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's child abuse. The question has been asked re: hot sauce - how different is it from washing a child's mouth out with soap? And a cold shower equals child abuse?

One of the comments regarding the verdict was that the mother had taped it - and it will therefore follow the child around all his life. What about all the kids that are taped acting up and being punished on the "nanny to the rescue"- type shows shows? And what about "Kate Plus 8?" Her kids are filmed all the time, sometimes being punished. And what about Dr. Phil asking for such a video and airing it?

The mother faces up to a year in jail.

Thoughts?

[guyser]

One of the comments regarding the verdict was that the mother had taped it - and it will therefore follow the child around all his life. What about all the kids that are taped acting up and being punished on the "nanny to the rescue"- type shows shows? And what about "Kate Plus 8?" Her kids are filmed all the time, sometimes being punished. And what about Dr. Phil asking for such a video and airing it?

The mother faces up to a year in jail.

Thoughts?

There is some thought she did this 'punishment' so she could get on the show w Dr Phil and that is why she was convicted, for subjecting her adopted son to this as fodder for an audition tape.

She was afterall good to go until the tape surfaced so perhaps it is true.

Not sure what it is, but hot sauce is really really stupid to be poured down some little kids throat.

Kids acting up on Nanny are kids acting up, as they are wont to do. They are deciding to act up, but mom decided on the sauce/shower thing.

Kate + 8 would not be on if Kate decide early in the shows history to be mildly abusivive to her kids, much like she was to her husband !

Dont think there is an apt comparison there AW.

[Sir Bandelot]

The hot sauce thing is bizarre, and cold shower somewhat reminiscent of dousing prisoners in cold water at Abu Graib. A spanking should be the last resort, but is still needed sometimes. beyond that is just not constructive. What's wrong with a time-out in their room for a few hours? Or removal of privlidges, or something along those lines. Those methods take longer to sink in to the kids head but they demonstrate that authority over the child is not based on the use of brute force. That there needs to be cooperation, otherwise there are consequences.

I think the point of any punishment for a kid who's acting up is, what kind of lasting impression does it leave the kid with. Teach them cruel methods of inflicting pain as the consequence for making you upset, and they'll evetually start doing the same things to other people.

[Guest American Woman]

There is some thought she did this 'punishment' so she could get on the show w Dr Phil and that is why she was convicted, for subjecting her adopted son to this as fodder for an audition tape.

If that's the case, I misunderstood. I thought the criticism was that she taped the punishment for an audition tape - not that she staged the punishment.

But again, if shows like Dr. Phil are asking for tapes of kids being punished and airing such tapes, seems to me there's some guilt there for making money off of such things too.

She was afterall good to go until the tape surfaced so perhaps it is true.

I'm not sure what you mean by that - are you saying she didn't use that type of punishment prior to the taping?

Not sure what it is, but hot sauce is really really stupid to be poured down some little kids throat.

Yeah, it is stupid - I'm not arguing that. But does that make it child abuse? Does anything we don't like -that we think is stupid - become child abuse and punishable by a jail sentence?

Kids acting up on Nanny are kids acting up, as they are wont to do. They are deciding to act up, but mom decided on the sauce/shower thing.

By that line of thought, in this case the kid decided to act up - hence the punishment. In either case, the videos/tapes of the shows are out there for all to see. Furthermore, the parents in both instances made the decision to have their kids taped with the purpose of being on television.

Kate + 8 would not be on if Kate decide early in the shows history to be mildly abusivive to her kids, much like she was to her husband !

She was awful to her husband, but it could be argued that it's just as awful to put your kids' lives on display for the world to see - and that includes their acting up and misbehaving and crying and sad. All for a buck. Well, a lot more than a buck .........

Dont think there is an apt comparison there AW.

I'm still not convinced. I'll go further and cite Toddlers and Tiaras - where little kids are shown screaming as they are spray tanned (it's as cold as a cold shower) and getting their hair teased and hair pieces put on and false eye lashes glued to their little eyes getting their eyebrows plucked and taught to "shake their booty" all to win a crown - and the moms/childen who are followed by the program are choosing to put their kids' lives on display. I'm not sure subjecting kids to any of that stuff is less harmful than swallowing a gulp of hot sauce - and it's sure not less harmful than a cold shower.

Again, I'm not in any way condoning such punishment - but I just question what falls under the category of "child abuse" these days - abuse that is punishable by a jail sentence. Like I said, is it anything that we don't like? Should punishment be limited to time outs - and anything else is child abuse?

[Guest American Woman]

The hot sauce thing is bizarre, and cold shower somewhat reminiscent of dousing prisoners in cold water at Abu Graib. A spanking should be the last resort, but is still needed sometimes. beyond that is just not constructive. What's wrong with a time-out in their room for a few hours? Or removal of privlidges, or something along those lines. Those methods take longer to sink in to the kids head but they demonstrate that authority over the child is not based on the use of brute force. That there needs to be cooperation, otherwise there are consequences.

A spanking is based on the use of brute force every bit as much as swallowing hot sauce - or having one's mouth washed out with soap. Yet you feel it's still needed sometimes.

I think the point of any punishment for a kid who's acting up is, what kind of lasting impression does it leave the kid with. Teach them cruel methods of inflicting pain as the consequence for making you upset, and they'll evetually start doing the same things to other people.

What do you think a spanking does?

[Sir Bandelot]

A spanking is based on the use of brute force every bit as much as swallowing hot sauce - or having one's mouth washed out with soap. Yet you feel it's still needed sometimes.

What do you think a spanking does?

One light pat on the behind is a spanking, but so is walloping the hell out of the kid repeatedly. They're very different.

Same with hot sauce. You got yer Durkee Franks Red hot, and then Blairs "Beyond Death".

Still, hot sauce is not unlike your pepper spray, can be very painful.

I don't think jail is the answer though. Makes it worse for the kid somehow, to take their mother away. it should only be done when there is significant danger to the kid.

The problem is, who decides what amount of pain is appropriate in a childs punishment, if anything? I don't know. But from the point of convention, spankings have been around a while. Use of spicy condiments is a novelty. I'll leave that one up to the judge to decide...

Apparently the US government and probably others consider water-boarding to be an acceptible method of punishment, IE. it's not torture. No doubt she has taken her cue from these rulings.

[guyser]

If that's the case, I misunderstood. I thought the criticism was that she taped the punishment for an audition tape - not that she staged the punishment.

It is still a little unclear.

But again, if shows like Dr. Phil are asking for tapes of kids being punished and airing such tapes, seems to me there's some guilt there for making money off of such things too.

Slippery slope I would presume. There is guilt in a moral sense (and even that is a stretch IMO)but not in a legal sense . If so, then 'making money' and guilt would kill newspapers and TV news.

If he had counciled her to do such acts then there could be a vicarious connection but thats a stretch too.

I'm not sure what you mean by that - are you saying she didn't use that type of punishment prior to the taping?

No , what I meant was if she had not shown anyone the tape, regardless of what was on it, she would not be in trouble

By that line of thought, in this case the kid decided to act up - hence the punishment. In either case, the videos/tapes of the shows are out there for all to see. Furthermore, the parents in both instances made the decision to have their kids taped with the purpose of being on television.

The decision to tape is true. But the idea behind it is the important part.

Say I tape my kid or a kid , doing something dangerous, I am guilty of moral stupidity (and in some cases child endamgerment) but if I council a kid to do the same then I am guitly in a legal sense.

I'm still not convinced. I'll go further and cite Toddlers and Tiaras -

Stop right there.

I would shoot the mothers on Toddlers and Tiaras for I find what they do to be gross, ugly and without a shred of merit other than to the mothers ego and horribly unfulfilled loser life(s).

Hopefully one day, as we relax our TV rules, or maybe even HBO we can ll sit down and watch............

"Toddlers and Tiaras- When good children finally have enough of pushy ignorant fathead mothers" The kids can then mock mom for putting on 40lbs and all she can fit into are Afghans .

Airing on Fox perhaps.Oh I cant stand those moms and that show. Wont watch it, makes me mad.

Edited August 24, 2011 by guyser

[dre]

Yeah, it is stupid - I'm not arguing that. But does that make it child abuse? Does anything we don't like -that we think is stupid - become child abuse and punishable by a jail sentence?

Possibly. If this was the first problem this woman has had, and it was just out of character lapse of judgement then I would prefer was just given a warning, fine, or suspended sentence, and told that next time it will be more serious.

I dont think its much of a stretch to say that dousing someone in your custody in cold water, or force feeding them food that burns their digestive streak and causes pain/discomfort is abuse. But probably not of the order where jail time for a first offense is reasonable.

[betsy]

A mother in anchorage was found guilty of child abuse for punishing her adopted 7 year old son for lying and acting up in school by giving him hot sauce and making him take a cold shower. She taped the punishment (or rather had her daughter tape it while she carried it out) after having written to Dr. Phil saying she needed help dealing with her child and was told they'd need to see a video of her punishing him. The video went viral, she was reported to the authorities in Anchorage, and arrested and found guilty of child abuse.

While the punishment may be unconventional, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's child abuse. The question has been asked re: hot sauce - how different is it from washing a child's mouth out with soap? And a cold shower equals child abuse?

One of the comments regarding the verdict was that the mother had taped it - and it will therefore follow the child around all his life. What about all the kids that are taped acting up and being punished on the "nanny to the rescue"- type shows shows? And what about "Kate Plus 8?" Her kids are filmed all the time, sometimes being punished. And what about Dr. Phil asking for such a video and airing it?

The mother faces up to a year in jail.

Thoughts?

I tend to think it is unconventional, and these days, can be considered a form of child abuse.

Washing a mouth with soap is not comparable to that of forcing hot sauce into a child's mouth. For one thing, a child' skin - what more his lips, gums etc., - is more sensitive to that of an adult. Hot sauce can burn.

And the same thing too with cold water and hypothermia.

But I think laying any charges, what more giving the mother any jail time is taking this too far. Perhaps instead, Mom needs help by attending a workshop on systematic training on effective parenting. A lot of parents are at a loss when it comes to effective disciplining.

I had an 8 year old boy in daycare who kept the money that was supposed to be given to the teacher for a field trip, and lied about it. His mom is a young divorced parent who's having a tough time dealing with being divorced and with her 3 children. She told me of this issue and asked me to help. I talked to the boy about what he did and we talked. He acknowledged that what he did was wrong.

I got the boy to write lines "I will not steal and tell a lie" or something along that line 100 x (and it had to be in good writing). Until he'd finished writing all 100 lines, he's not allowed to leave his desk, except for meals and washroom breaks. If he doesn't finish by the time he gets picked up by Mom, he'll continue first thing in the morning. The next day I told him to give the money to the teacher and to apologise for what he'd done. I made sure he understood that I definitely want him to apologise. I called the school to follow up if he apologised...and I was told he did.

Edited August 25, 2011 by betsy

[MiddleClassCentrist]

So, say I shoved hot sauce down your throat because I didn't like your opinion.

I would get charged with assault.

I don't think it's going any further to say that it was child abuse.

Purposefully inflicting pain as punishment. Spanking is more mild of a punishment than hot sauce.

Hot sauce burns for a long time, especially in a young mouth. A spanking only stings for a few seconds.

[Guest American Woman]

So, say I shoved hot sauce down your throat because I didn't like your opinion.

I would get charged with assault.

I don't think it's going any further to say that it was child abuse.

Purposefully inflicting pain as punishment. Spanking is more mild of a punishment than hot sauce.

Hot sauce burns for a long time, especially in a young mouth. A spanking only stings for a few seconds.

Yet say you spanked me because you didn't like my opinion.

You would get charged with assault.

So by your reasoning, that would make spanking child abuse too.

----------------------------

Still giving thought to some of the comments....as for "hot sauce burning" - does it actually "burn," like biting into a too hot pizza burns? or drinking coffee that's too hot? Or does it leave the mouth just feeling hot with no after effects? I don't eat hot sauce myself, but some people love it - and I think kids in some cultures do too.

As for the cold shower - I doubt whether it's dangerous - ie: exposing the child to hypothermia. I would imagine kids in low income families sometimes take cold showers for lack of hot water. I know my kids and I have taken cold showers at camp grounds with no ill effects. And I happily swam in Lake Superior when I was a kid - and that's cold! Furthermore, prisoners were more than "doused with cold water" at

Abu Graib - it went beyond making them take a cold shower.

I agree that the woman, since she was asking for help, should have been provided with mandated child care classes or social services follow ups. Especially as a first offender. But I still really question if this was in the category of "child abuse." Yes, it makes us uncomfortable to think about, but is everything that makes us uncomfortable abuse? - and is it ok for the media to exploit kids in tv shows for $$$?

Edited August 25, 2011 by American Woman

[Remiel]

Still giving thought to some of the comments....as for "hot sauce burning" - does it actually "burn," like biting into a too hot pizza burns? or drinking coffee that's too hot? Or does it leave the mouth just feeling hot with no after effects? I don't eat hot sauce myself, but some people love it - and I think kids in some cultures do too.

Why does the burning have to be the same as heat burning? Acid " burns " too, and it not the same as heat burning. All that is important is that it is a sensation from which one would seek immediate and ongoning relief. I recall once eating a hot pepper on a dare and I ended up spending most of the next fifteen to twenty minutes drinking water to cool off. It would have been brutal without that relief.

[Guest American Woman]

Why does the burning have to be the same as heat burning? Acid " burns " too, and it not the same as heat burning. All that is important is that it is a sensation from which one would seek immediate and ongoning relief. I recall once eating a hot pepper on a dare and I ended up spending most of the next fifteen to twenty minutes drinking water to cool off. It would have been brutal without that relief.

I think whether or not it causes a physical burn - which acid most definitely does - makes a difference in determining whether or not it's child abuse. By the same token, a spanking that leaves no marks apparently gets the ok, but I have to wonder how many would ok a spanking that left a black and blue mark - ie: "after effects."

I've seen the video, and the child does not cry when the hot sauce is in his mouth. Also, he doesn't swallow it, and the mom tells him to spit it out in the sink after a minute or so - which he does. He didn't seem to suffer any more ill effects than a child suffers from a spanking. I still wonder if it's being uncomfortable with the thought - while we are somewhat desensitized to the idea of a spanking - that is the determining factor more than the act itself.

[betsy]

Still giving thought to some of the comments....as for "hot sauce burning" - does it actually "burn," like biting into a too hot pizza burns? or drinking coffee that's too hot? Or does it leave the mouth just feeling hot with no after effects? I don't eat hot sauce myself, but some people love it - and I think kids in some cultures do too.

Depends on the hot sauce that was used. Sriracha is way up there. I couldn't handle it. My lips sting....but hubby gobbles it up like butter. And there are even hotter varieties than Sriracha.

Depends on the type of peppers used to make the sauce. In culinary shows, viewers are adviced to smear oil on hands (or wear gloves) if slicing up and de-seeding jalapeno for example.

Some hot sauce can cause blisters (again depending on the type of peppers). Also some people - even for adults - are more susceptible to skin irritations than others. So what more to a child?

As for the cold shower - I doubt whether it's dangerous - ie: exposing the child to hypothermia. I would imagine kids in low income families sometimes take cold showers for lack of hot water. I know my kids and I have taken cold showers at camp grounds with no ill effects. And I happily swam in Lake Superior when I was a kid - and that's cold! Furthermore, prisoners were more than "doused with cold water" at

Abu Graib - it went beyond making them take a cold shower.

I've read an incident of torture where-in an individual is submerged to iced water. Again, it depends on the temperature - how cold is it.

I think that the mother got over her head disciplining the child. This is more out of frustration that she's not getting anywhere with him, an accumulation of other things.

This is dangerous....because it could easily get out of hand.

Edited August 25, 2011 by betsy

[Sir Bandelot]

I think that the mother got over her head disciplining the child. This is more out of frustration that she's not getting anywhere with him, an accumulation of other things.

This is dangerous....because it could easily get out of hand.

Yes, I think you're right, she did some things that are unusual, not conventional forms of punishment. That's where the concern is, that she is seeking alternate ways to inflict punishment alone.

Which I alluded to earlier. We accept mild forms of conventional punishment, where the intent is not just to cause pain. Or mental anguish, for that matter. As a society we under-rate the effect of mental anguish. The mere idea that "I want to hurt you" from a parent is in itself quite punishing.

[cybercoma]

how different is it from washing a child's mouth out with soap?

Who's to say that's not child abuse as well? Do you know what kind of chemicals are in soap? It's actually quite hazardous.

[Guest American Woman]

Who's to say that's not child abuse as well? Do you know what kind of chemicals are in soap? It's actually quite hazardous.

Evidently the law, hence my point. As I said, I think it has more to do with what we're conditioned to think is ok and what's outside that box - ie: we haven't been desensitized to it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Yet say you spanked me because you didn't like my opinion.

You would get charged with assault.

So by your reasoning, that would make spanking child abuse too.

No. I was trying to illustrate that hot sauce is still a strong punishment.

I don't spank my children either. I wouldn't hit my father, mother, brother, sister, wife or friend in an argument. Why would it be OK to hit my children out of frustration when I disagree with them?

Still giving thought to some of the comments....as for "hot sauce burning" - does it actually "burn," like biting into a too hot pizza burns? or drinking coffee that's too hot? Or does it leave the mouth just feeling hot with no after effects? I don't eat hot sauce myself, but some people love it - and I think kids in some cultures do too.

Why don't you go answer this for yourself? Go buy the hottest hot sauce you can find. Take a table spoon and put it into your mouth. Then you can personally decide if it is appropriate to give a young child.

If fact, that is probably the best solution.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I think whether or not it causes a physical burn - which acid most definitely does - makes a difference in determining whether or not it's child abuse. By the same token, a spanking that leaves no marks apparently gets the ok, but I have to wonder how many would ok a spanking that left a black and blue mark - ie: "after effects."

This conversation would be easier if you stated your opinion rather than just questioning everyone elses. What form of pain causing punishment is appropriate on a child?

None? All? Specific?

----

If seems as though you feel that it isn't abuse when it doesn't leave a mark.

There are a lot of muslims following Sharia Law who beat their wives who also agree with you. Leave no mark and your can beat away!

Edited August 26, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Guest American Woman]

No. I was trying to illustrate that hot sauce is still a strong punishment.

I never said it wasn't a strong punishment, but "strong" doesn't equal "abuse." Tough love involves strong punishment too.

I don't spank my children either. I wouldn't hit my father, mother, brother, sister, wife or friend in an argument. Why would it be OK to hit my children out of frustration when I disagree with them?

I never said it was ok; I was responding to what other people have said.

Why don't you go answer this for yourself? Go buy the hottest hot sauce you can find. Take a table spoon and put it into your mouth. Then you can personally decide if it is appropriate to give a young child.

I never said I thought it was "appropriate." I don't think it's appropriate to let a child watch R rated movies either, but I don't think it amounts to child abuse.

If fact, that is probably the best solution.

Not following you here ........

This conversation would be easier if you stated your opinion rather than just questioning everyone elses. What form of pain causing punishment is appropriate on a child?

None? All? Specific?

I think I made it clear that I'm not convinced that this is child abuse, so I'm questioning people who think that it is - I'm questioning why, in light of other 'accepted' forms of punishment. It obviously wasn't "the hottest hot sauce [that can be found]" and the cold shower doesn't compare to dousing someone with ice water as it's been compared to. As I said, my daughters and I have taken cold showers at camp grounds, I swam in frigid Lake Superior as a child, and I'm sure there are some low economic families that can't afford hot water and therefore resort to cold showers. All without any ill effects.

If seems as though you feel that it isn't abuse when it doesn't leave a mark.

I was speaking of how people seem to define a spanking that's in the ok category and a spanking that's not - obviously a spanking that leaves black and blue marks would be viewed differently from one that did not. Do you disagree? I would say the law/social services would view the two situations differently.

There are a lot of muslims following Sharia Law who beat their wives who also agree with you. Leave no mark and your can beat away!

Again, it's not "me" who feels that way, but I have to wonder how in the world anyone could "beat" someone and "leave no mark." How can anyone "beat away" on someone without leaving bruises?? Perhaps what you're thinking of is 'leave no mark that can be seen' as in 'isn't hidden from others' view' which is a very different thing from what you're saying. I would think it's impossible to "beat" someone and not leave a mark.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I never said it was ok; I was responding to what other people have said.

I never said I thought it was "appropriate." I don't think it's appropriate to let a child watch R rated movies either, but I don't think it amounts to child abuse.

Not following you here ........

You question whether hot sauce is actually child abuse but, have never experienced it... nor are you willing to (apparently). This reduces the validity of your opinion to that of a willfully ignorant opinion.

To make your opinion valid, grab a tablespoon of hot sauce and swish it around and swallow. Report back here and let us know how it went.

I've been spanked as a child when I was way out of line. I've had extra hot wings by mistake. The spanking was way more minor than the hot sauce.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/facts-info/child-enf.html

WHAT IS CHILD ABUSE?

The term “child abuse” refers to the violence, mistreatment or neglect that a child or adolescent may experience while in the care of someone they either trust or depend on, such as a parent, sibling, other relative, caregiver or guardian. Abuse may take place anywhere and may occur, for example, within the child's home or that of someone known to the child.

There are many different forms of abuse and a child may be subjected to more than one form:

Physical abuse may consist of just one incident or it may happen repeatedly. It involves deliberately using force against a child in such a way that the child is either injured or is at risk of being injured. Physical abuse includes beating, hitting, shaking, pushing, choking, biting, burning, kicking or assaulting a child with a weapon.1 It also includes holding a child under water, or any other dangerous or harmful use of force or restraint. Female genital mutilation is another form of physical abuse.

Sexual abuse and exploitation involves using a child for sexual purposes. Examples of child sexual abuse include fondling, inviting a child to touch or be touched sexually, intercourse, rape, incest, sodomy, exhibitionism, or involving a child in prostitution or pornography.2

Neglect is often chronic, and it usually involves repeated incidents. It involves failing to provide what a child needs for his or her physical, psychological or emotional development and well being. For example, neglect includes failing to provide a child with food, clothing, shelter, cleanliness, medical care or protection from harm.3 Emotional neglect includes failing to provide a child with love, safety, and a sense of worth.

Emotional abuse involves harming a child's sense of self. It includes acts (or omissions) that result in, or place a child at risk of, serious behavioural, cognitive, emotional or mental health problems. For example, emotional abuse may include verbal threats, social isolation, intimidation, exploitation, or routinely making unreasonable demands. It also includes terrorizing a child, or exposing them to family violence.

An abuser may use a number of different tactics to gain access to a child, exert power and control over them, and prevent them from telling anyone about the abuse or seeking support. A child who is being abused is usually in a position of dependence on the person who is abusing them. Abuse is a misuse of power and a violation of trust. The abuse may happen once or it may occur in a repeated and escalating pattern over a period of months or years. The abuse may change form over time.

[cybercoma]

the cold shower doesn't compare to dousing someone with ice water as it's been compared to. As I said, my daughters and I have taken cold showers at camp grounds, I swam in frigid Lake Superior as a child, and I'm sure there are some low economic families that can't afford hot water and therefore resort to cold showers. All without any ill effects.

You're missing an important point.

I've had sex with women and it has been quite a romantic experience.

If I had sex with them against their will it's rape.

You chose to take those cold showers and take that polar dip in lake superior. There's a marked difference between doing something willingly and being forced against your will to strip down naked and get into a frigid shower and to have hot sauce forced down your throat. It's a violation of your body and your free will. It's abuse and it's unnecessary. These types of punishments do nothing but relieve the frustration of the punisher by dehumanizing the punished.

[Bonam]

You chose to take those cold showers and take that polar dip in lake superior. There's a marked difference between doing something willingly and being forced against your will to strip down naked and get into a frigid shower and to have hot sauce forced down your throat. It's a violation of your body and your free will. It's abuse and it's unnecessary. These types of punishments do nothing but relieve the frustration of the punisher by dehumanizing the punished.

By that logic, almost any kind of punishment or discipline is unjustifiable. Grounding a child in their room is a violation of their free will and freedom of movement, for example. Clearly, our society accepts the notion that parents have some right to infringe upon the freedoms of their children to a given extent. The key is determining what that extent is. An absolutist argument like the above is not productive in this context.

[cybercoma]

If you can't see the difference between grounding a child to their room, a child that requires supervision at all times from an adult or guardian anyway, and forcing a child into an ice-cold shower or forcing the child to ingest hot-sauce against his/her will then I'm sorry, but there's no point in even discussing this with you.

[Bonam]

If you can't see the difference between grounding a child to their room, a child that requires supervision at all times from an adult or guardian anyway, and forcing a child into an ice-cold shower or forcing the child to ingest hot-sauce against his/her will then I'm sorry, but there's no point in even discussing this with you.

Of course I see the difference between the actions. What I don't see a difference between is the applicability of your argument, which I quoted, to those actions. Your argument stated that the ice-cold shower or hot sauce are morally wrong as punishments because they violate the child's freedom. However, grounding also violates the child's freedom, and yet is viewed as acceptable. Therefore, it is not the violation of freedom that causes the cold shower or hot sauce to be unacceptable, but some other factor. Hence, your argument is incorrect. Basic logic. I guess basic logic goes over people's heads when they are embroiled in emotional discussions.