recognize palestine

[Bob]

Why shouldn't they have their own country?

The argument that they cannot be distinguished from other Arabs doesn't fly. A Palestinian is as different from an Algerian as a Briton is from Australian.

Of course, If they all are Arabs, a solution could be a one pan-arabic country, from Rabat to Baghdad, including Gaza and the West Bank... Not that I am advocating it.

As I've already said, we have more than enough countries with Arab/Muslim majorities. We don't need another. And we certainly can't have one at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, the opportunities have been there in the past for these Arabs/Muslims to have their own state, but they refused - and they continue to refuse.

With respect to the relationship between nationalism being dependent on important distinguishing criteria, the fact remains that there are more than enough places where these Arabs/Muslims can do whatever it is they want to do (cultural preservation?). They cannot do it on top of us.

Lastly, spare me the amateur hour cultural anthropology lessons - the differences between Australians and Britons are real, whereas the differences between "Palestinians" and, say, Jordanians, are non-existent. bear in mind that 80% of Jordanians self-identify as "Palestinians". Look like they've already got their country, wouldn't you say (aside from the Hashemite monarchy, of course).

[Bob]

"Arabs have a connection to the land"... what a joke. You mean how Islam is a cheap forgery, based on flawed plagiarism from Judaism? Like the story about Muhammad riding his horse to heaven from the Temple Mount? Or pretending hijacking the Tomb of the Patriarchs? Or how after centuries of living there, it was still a barren land until Jewish pioneers actually made the desert bloom? Give me break, Arabs/Muslims rewrite history in order to manufacture these "connections". You're proving my point, anyways, your grievance is with Israel's existence, period. Stop stop pretending to give a shit about nuances like your imaginary hardships that the Arabs in Israel endure under the yoke of Jewish discrimination (I guess that's why so many of these Arabs keep trying to get into Israel, applying for work and education and residency permits, right?).

[bud]

"Arabs have a connection to the land"... what a joke. You mean how Islam is a cheap forgery, based on flawed plagiarism from Judaism? Like the story about Muhammad riding his horse to heaven from the Temple Mount? Or pretending hijacking the Tomb of the Patriarchs? Or how after centuries of living there, it was still a barren land until Jewish pioneers actually made the desert bloom? Give me break, Arabs/Muslims rewrite history in order to manufacture these "connections". You're proving my point, anyways, your grievance is with Israel's existence, period. Stop stop pretending to give a shit about nuances like your imaginary hardships that the Arabs in Israel endure under the yoke of Jewish discrimination (I guess that's why so many of these Arabs keep trying to get into Israel, applying for work and education and residency permits, right?).

you're all over the place bob.

are you still denying that arabs have been living in palestine for centuries?

now you want to act like a child and start comparing your team to other teams.

if islam is a forgery, then so is judaism which copied zoroastrianism. the difference is that islam accepts judaism (and christianity) and does not hide that its beliefs are pretty much the same:

Judaism and Zoroasrtianism are both revealed religions and share a great deal in common. God imparts his revelation and pronounces his commandments to Zoroaster on "the Mountain of the Two Holy Communing Ones"; in the other Yahweh holds a similar communion with Moses on Sinai. According to jewishencyclodedia.com the points of resemblance between Zoroastrianism and Judaism are many. In both faiths God is omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, and creator of the universe. God operates through and governs the universe with the use of angels and archangels. This presents a parallel to Yahweh that is found in the Old Testament. The Zoroastrianism Spenta Mainyu is the Christian "Holy Spirit."

link

[CANADIEN]

As I've already said, we have more than enough countries with Arab/Muslim majorities. We don't need another. And we certainly can't have one at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, the opportunities have been there in the past for these Arabs/Muslims to have their own state, but they refused - and they continue to refuse.

With respect to the relationship between nationalism being dependent on important distinguishing criteria, the fact remains that there are more than enough places where these Arabs/Muslims can do whatever it is they want to do (cultural preservation?). They cannot do it on top of us.

Lastly, spare me the amateur hour cultural anthropology lessons - the differences between Australians and Britons are real, whereas the differences between "Palestinians" and, say, Jordanians, are non-existent. bear in mind that 80% of Jordanians self-identify as "Palestinians". Look like they've already got their country, wouldn't you say (aside from the Hashemite monarchy, of course).

Why don't you spare us the attemps to mask your own personal bigotry and get to what your solution is. A Greater Israël where Palestinians would have equal rights (as long that they recognize that they are not fully equals, and of course there is no saying what will happen when they become too many though...). Or perhaps a Greater Israël without Palestinians?

Interesting that you point out that most Jordanians consider themselves Palestinians. Here we have a solution... include Gaza and the West Bank into Jordan.;-) Still doesn't make a Palestinian into an Algerian, or a Moroccan into an Iraqi.

PS: Thank for the part about blaming THEM for refusing what you don't want them to have anyway. I needed the laugh.

Edited September 9, 2011 by CANADIEN

[Bob]

Why don't you spare us the attemps to mask your own personal bigotry and get to what your solution is. A Greater Israël where Palestinians would have equal rights (as long that they recognize that they are not fully equals, and of course there is no saying what will happen when they become too many though...). Or perhaps a Greater Israël without Palestinians?

Interesting that you point out that most Jordanians consider themselves Palestinians. Here we have a solution... include Gaza and the West Bank into Jordan.;-) Still doesn't make a Palestinian into an Algerian, or a Moroccan into an Iraqi.

PS: Thank for the part about blaming THEM for refusing what you don't want them to have anyway. I needed the laugh.

What bigotry? I understand these Arabs/Muslims. You don't. By and large, they view Israel as a mistake that must be undone. And this perspective is widely held by "Western" Arabs/Muslims who have lived all or most of their lives in the West. The "Palestinians" are even worse than that. You think we're going to withdraw our presence from the disputed territories and grant even more opportunities to these people to wage campaigns of murders and terrorism against us? There were times in the past when the "Palestinians" could have had independence and their own state, but their own choices (which they continue to make today) prevented them from seizing what they claim to desire.

I look at the "Palestinians" like the group version of a mass murderer. Would we release Paul Bernardo from prison as long as he "behaved" himself for awhile and make public proclamations of being reformed? No. Well, maybe leftists like you would advocate for such stupidity. The "Palestinians" are the collective version of this, where they have a track record of violence and hatred. That's their political/national/religious identity. The difference here is that the "Palestinians" don't renounce their previous actions, indeed, they glorify them and continue to perpetuate them in the name of glorious Jihad.

Just as an individual can forfeit his/her rights to freedom by committing crimes and violating the freedoms of others, so can a collective of persons. I absolutely reject any notion of independence for these "Palestinians", especially on our doorstep. Would you release Paul Bernardo to buy a home and live in a community with young women?

Solution? Removal of Arabs from Israel. They cannot coexist with us. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are thousands of good reasons within Israel (and tens of thousands of good reasons outside of Israel) for us not to trust them, and those reasons are all buried across the cemeteries of our land.

Or, at a minimum, mass revocation of their citizenship in our country (with few exceptions).

[Argus]

Why shouldn't they have their own country?

The argument that they cannot be distinguished from other Arabs doesn't fly. A Palestinian is as different from an Algerian as a Briton is from Australian.

More like a Palestinian is as different from a Jordanian or an Egyptian as someone living in Edmonton is from someone living in Calgary. Which is to say, not very.

Why can't they have their own country? Because they don't have the land, resources, infrastructure or money to sustain one, and never will.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Argus

[Bob]

More like a Palestinian is as different from a Jordanian or an Egyptian as someone living in Edmonton is from someone living in Calgary. Which is to say, not very.

Why can't they have their own country? Because they don't have the land, resources, infrastructure or money to sustain one, and never will.

And moreover, their national mission is the destruction of Israel. Considering their raison d'etre is quite sick, they simply cannot be trusted with sovereignty on our doorstep.

[CANADIEN]

What bigotry?

The one you have so eloquently demonstrated. Let's be perfectly clear here. You, and I mean you personally, are little better than an iman who screams on a megaphone that Jews are pigs.

Now, I fully except you to claim that I am anti-Semite. So let's be perfectly clear two other things. Fist, person who, on the basis of anything I said, claims that I am an anti-Semite is either an imbecile or a liar, or a mixture of both. Second, I won't waste my time reading, or responding to your slime anymore.

Edited September 10, 2011 by CANADIEN

[BC_chick]

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the term "Palestinian" is quite meaningless. It's an attempt to distinguish these people from other Arabs/Muslims in the neighbourhood, when they're largely indistinguishable.

That's ridiculous, people of the same race/ethnicity do refer to themselves differently according to geography. You have so many different countries that speak Arabic and are Muslim, but they refer to themselves as Syrian, Lebanese, Yemeni and so on.

Why should the Palestinians be any different just because you feel they don't have the same right to self-determination as Jews do?

[jacee]

As I've already said, we have more than enough countries with Arab/Muslim majorities. We don't need another. And we certainly can't have one at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, the opportunities have been there in the past for these Arabs/Muslims to have their own state, but they refused - and they continue to refuse.

Really? The Palestinians are petitioning the UN for their own state. Over 60 percent of them support the initiative AND over 60 percent of Israelis support it too, from reports I've seen.

Not only do you misrepresent Palestinians, you misrepresent your own people too.

Once it happens, and I do believe it will, perhaps all Arabs will remove themselves from Israel ... but then who's going to clean your toilets? You'll have to import them back in.

There are Israeli Jews working for peace and security, supporting the initiative for a two state solution, trying to improve things for the future. Clearly you have no solutions to offer, nothing but recriminations, aggression, revenge and more violence and oppression.

Clearly you are part of a hardline minority mired in your own angst and unable to take any constructive action.

And clearly you will be left behind as the world moves on without you, Bob, unless you can take a larger view and look forward. Your hardline right wing government will fall to those who CAN work toward better conditions for all and you'll be a small group of reactionaries without hope, without vision and without support.

You are like some Canadians who hate Quebec passionately until

Quebec wants to leave Canada, and then they hate it even more. No vision, no compassion, no ability to move forward, no positive intentions only anger and revenge.

And that NEVER leads to progress.

Edited September 11, 2011 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

....You are like some Canadians who hate Quebec passionately until

Quebec wants to leave Canada, and then they hate it even more. No vision, no compassion, no ability to move forward, no positive intentions only anger and revenge.

And that NEVER leads to progress.

Interesting...so of course you would also support "statehood" for so called "First Nations" in Canada, your own version of "PalestIndians?

[Guest American Woman]

Interesting...so of course you would also support "statehood" for so called "First Nations" in Canada, your own version of "PalestIndians?

Oh, I've no doubt!

[Bob]

That's ridiculous, people of the same race/ethnicity do refer to themselves differently according to geography. You have so many different countries that speak Arabic and are Muslim, but they refer to themselves as Syrian, Lebanese, Yemeni and so on.

Why should the Palestinians be any different just because you feel they don't have the same right to self-determination as Jews do?

It's not ridiculous, at all. Do Ontarians have a "right to self-determination" in Ontario? How about Albertans?

What I'm saying, and it's indisputable, is that there are no meaningful differences between "Palestinians" and neighbouring Arab/Muslim countries. They have plenty of countries, as it is. They cannot build another one on top of ours.

[Argus]

That's ridiculous, people of the same race/ethnicity do refer to themselves differently according to geography. You have so many different countries that speak Arabic and are Muslim, but they refer to themselves as Syrian, Lebanese, Yemeni and so on.

Yes, but these countries were created by colonial powers. There was no Saudi Arabia. There was no Jordan. There was no nation of Syria or Lebanon or Yemen or Iraq or Palestine, for that matter. These were not countries, as such. There was a vast area of Beaudoins and local villages and chieftains and sultans and city states. All of this area was ruled by, at one time, either Persia or the Mamluks, the Roman Empire, the Islamic empire or the Turks or whomever. They had/have no national identity, no independent cultural heritage within their present borders. When the Turks, or rather, the Ottoman Empire lost world war one their territory was broken up and handed to the French and British, who drew borders and created nations and kings. There are people still alive in these 'nations' who were born prior to the creation of the nations they're now citizens of.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Argus

[dre]

As I've already said, we have more than enough countries with Arab/Muslim majorities. We don't need another. And we certainly can't have one at the expense of the only Jewish state. Moreover, the opportunities have been there in the past for these Arabs/Muslims to have their own state, but they refused - and they continue to refuse.

Your subjective opinion on how many arab countries there should be is worth about as much as a bag full goat feces. And a palestinian state would not be at the "expense of the only jewish state". They dont need anything from you at all.

[dre]

Interesting...so of course you would also support "statehood" for so called "First Nations" in Canada, your own version of "PalestIndians?

Holy shit what a bone-headed comparison :lol:

[bush_cheney2004]

Holy shit what a bone-headed comparison :lol:

Is it? When will treaty rights and land claims be settled? When will the "occupations" end?

[Bob]

Your subjective opinion on how many arab countries there should be is worth about as much as a bag full goat feces. And a palestinian state would not be at the "expense of the only jewish state". They dont need anything from you at all.

Yes, it is my subjective opinion that 55 Muslims majority states, of which 22(ish?) are Arab states is more than enough land for them. We've got one Jewish country, and the lands the "Palestinians" are claiming as their own include OUR OWN LAND. Moreover, they have proven for the past century that they oppose our very existence in what they perceive as their land. Many people would agree with this subjective evaluation. Sometimes things are defined subjectively/arbitrarily. This isn't science.

Their national mission is the destruction of Israel, and this mission has not only been acted on and continues to be acted on (resulting in many wars and tens of thousands of murdered Jewish and other Israelis). They don't just talk about incessantly, they act upon it incessantly (facts you like to ignore, or obfuscate with hollow justifications). No reasonable person would think that giving these people increased autonomy on land adjacent to a people and country they wish to destroy is a good idea.

Like I said earlier, we wouldn't release Paul Bernardo into freedom in our country, and the "Palestinians" are the collective version of Paul Bernardo. Just as an individual can forfeit any claim to freedom that he or she once had, so can a collective of people (or even and idea, ideology, or other movement).

They can have all the self-determination they want, just not here.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

Holy shit what a bone-headed comparison :lol:

Nothing bone-headed about it, at all. Both peoples are failures and largely responsible for their own lot in life. Go move out of your home and give it to an Aboriginal, then we'll talk.

[jacee]

We've got one Jewish country, and the lands the "Palestinians" are claiming as their own include OUR OWN LAND.

What land is that, and how is it yours?

They can have all the self-determination they want, just not here.

It appears that they will be there. Now what? Bomb them some more?

If Israel intends to remain a viable state, perhaps it should act like one.

Edited September 12, 2011 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

.... It appears that they will be there. Now what? Bomb them some more?

If Israel intends to remain a viable state, perhaps it should act like one.

It is acting like one...don't you realize what CF-188's are used for, and where they have been used? Why are you holding Israel to a different standard?

[CitizenX]

An Interesting documentary I just watched

[dre]

Is it? When will treaty rights and land claims be settled? When will the "occupations" end?

When will you come up with an analogy that isnt retarded?

[Black Dog]

What I'm saying, and it's indisputable, is that there are no meaningful differences between "Palestinians" and neighbouring Arab/Muslim countries. They have plenty of countries, as it is. They cannot build another one on top of ours.

You mean on top of the one Israel built on top of theirs.

[bush_cheney2004]

When will you come up with an analogy that isnt retarded?

When the land claims are settled.