cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 No, member betsy has already won, particularly in the case of agnostics. Her faith and commitment to a belief system based on the Bible has more substance than those who waffle in the wind, unsure of such a foundation. Good for her.... Stubbornly holding onto beliefs that have no evidence to back them up... yeah, she's a winner alright. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Actually its pretty much devoid of any real substance once you take a close look. I consider myself an agnostic, but I need no such "foundation". I barely even CARE if a god exists or not. But yeah... if you consider rigid uncompromising adherence to a doctrine a meaninfull foundation then I guess Betsy, and UFO enthusiasts, and people that believe their horoscopes have a foundation I dont have... or want... or need. Would you be so kind as to answer these two questions:Does God exist? Do you believe in God? Quote
CANADIEN Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Glad I am an atheist. Thank God I'm not one. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Stubbornly holding onto beliefs that have no evidence to back them up... yeah, she's a winner alright. Why is it so important to attack and belittle such religious or spiritual beliefs in the very same way you criticize people for espousing their faith? Billions of people in the world have such belief systems...are they all "stubborn" because they refuse to think just as you do? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Would you be so kind as to answer these two questions: Does God exist? Do you believe in God? Ill try my best but god isnt a word with any real definition. 1. The personal creator god characters in modern monotheistic religions definately dont exist, but its not impossible that an entity might exist that has some of the attributes that religionists believe gods have. Its a hard question to answer because theres no universal definition of the word god. If youre a guppy in a fish tank are the gigantic mysterious creatures moving around on the other side of the glass, and dropping food from the sky gods? Look at cargoists... their gods definately exist (they're planes and soldiers). 2. No I dont. I self describe as agnostic because humans are like those guppies gazing out through the glass. We know almost nothing and we see almost nothing. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Why is it so important to attack and belittle such religious or spiritual beliefs in the very same way you criticize people for espousing their faith? Billions of people in the world have such belief systems...are they all "stubborn" because they refuse to think just as you do? Why is it ok for people to believe in religious ideas without any evidence, but it's not ok for poltiicians to make policy on faith, or doctors to do surgery on faith, or plane mechanics to fix your commuter jet on faith, or scientists to publish conclusions in journals on faith? The only sphere of life where this is allowed is religion. And by making it untouchable and fostering irrational beliefs, we protect the most horrific atrocities that are committed in its name because people must be allowed to have these beliefs not based on anything other than the imagination of past generations. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Ill try my best but god isnt a word with any real definition. 1. The personal creator god characters in modern monotheistic religions definately dont exist, but its not impossible that an entity might exist that has some of the attributes that religionists believe gods have. Its a hard question to answer because theres no universal definition of the word god. If youre a guppy in a fish tank are the gigantic mysterious creatures moving around on the other side of the glass, and dropping food from the sky gods? Look at cargoists... their gods definately exist (they're planes and soldiers). 2. No I dont. I self describe as agnostic because humans are like those guppies gazing out through the glass. We know almost nothing and we see almost nothing. See, in my opinion, if you don't believe in God, you're an atheist. Most of the atheists I know are more than willing to accept a God if there's ever any evidence whatsoever produce for its existence; however, at this moment they don't believe in God. If you have no idea whatsoever if God exists (and I'm not talking about calling God something else, in which case you may as well use that something else as its label. Let's not confuse things any more than they already are.) there is no reason whatsoever to believe in its existence and you are an atheist. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Faith gives people courage where it is otherwise very difficult to find. Faith also consoles us when tragedy strikes. It is belief that affects human thought and takes us to another level. Where rational thinking atheists concede that defeat is certain, a person of faith will fight on. Many great athletes draw their inner strength and courage from a belief in God. Ask people like Muhammad Ali. Therefore faith is not something you can just dismiss. A person with faith is a force to be reckoned with. Faith is a weapon. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 A person with faith is a force to be reckoned with. Faith is a weapon. Yup. That's true. And that's what's so dangerous about it. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Why is it ok for people to believe in religious ideas without any evidence, but it's not ok for poltiicians to make policy on faith, or doctors to do surgery on faith, or plane mechanics to fix your commuter jet on faith, or scientists to publish conclusions in journals on faith? Because faith is for the spiritual realm, not pedestrian functions you have listed. The only sphere of life where this is allowed is religion. And by making it untouchable and fostering irrational beliefs, we protect the most horrific atrocities that are committed in its name because people must be allowed to have these beliefs not based on anything other than the imagination of past generations. This is an unbalanced accusation....far greater "atrocities" are committed outside of any faith based systems (i.e. for economics or geopolitics). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 See, in my opinion, if you don't believe in God, you're an atheist. Most of the atheists I know are more than willing to accept a God if there's ever any evidence whatsoever produce for its existence; however, at this moment they don't believe in God. "God" can be acknowledged in many forms....pick one. If you have no idea whatsoever if God exists (and I'm not talking about calling God something else, in which case you may as well use that something else as its label. Let's not confuse things any more than they already are.) there is no reason whatsoever to believe in its existence and you are an atheist. This doesn't make any sense....you don't get to define what "God" means to other people just for the sake of feeling correct about being an atheist. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 If God can mean anything, then God means nothing. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Faith gives people courage where it is otherwise very difficult to find. Faith also consoles us when tragedy strikes. It is belief that affects human thought and takes us to another level... Agreed...faith is real, and any "atheist" who dismisses it as silly superstition discounts its importance to human behaviour. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 If God can mean anything, then God means nothing. God means nothing...to you. We're happy for 'ya! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 If God can mean anything, then God means nothing. And that is the problem. God DOES have no meaning. Its a concept not a tangible thing.... used to describe virtually everything from lights in the sky, to the planets, stars, trees, fish, birds, cows, airplanes and other things. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
CANADIEN Posted September 5, 2011 Report Posted September 5, 2011 And that is the problem. God DOES have no meaning. Its a concept not a tangible thing.... used to describe virtually everything from lights in the sky, to the planets, stars, trees, fish, birds, cows, airplanes and other things. Really... how many times do you hear people say an airplane is God? Quote
dre Posted September 5, 2011 Report Posted September 5, 2011 Really... how many times do you hear people say an airplane is God? 10's of thousands of people have believed this. When both Japenese and Allied forces started flying over, and landing on the Melanaysian islands in the south pacific the tribesman started worshipping them and a whole religion emerged. Some of the soldiers that landed there would give these natives things... trinkets, food, tools, etc. The tribesmen had never seen ANY kind of technology or civilization. After the war the planes stopped coming, and followers feared that the gods had abandoned them. They began doing religious rituals believing the gods would return - They started building airports! They would cut down large swaths of jungle to make runways, and they would even build aircraft control towers, and staff them with controllers equipped with headphones made of bark and twigs. They believed that if they did this the gods would return and bring them more goods. It seems incredible but its true, and its a very interesting study on human religion. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
CANADIEN Posted September 5, 2011 Report Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) 10's of thousands of people have believed this. When both Japenese and Allied forces started flying over, and landing on the Melanaysian islands in the south pacific the tribesman started worshipping them and a whole religion emerged. Some of the soldiers that landed there would give these natives things... trinkets, food, tools, etc. The tribesmen had never seen ANY kind of technology or civilization. After the war the planes stopped coming, and followers feared that the gods had abandoned them. They began doing religious rituals believing the gods would return - They started building airports! They would cut down large swaths of jungle to make runways, and they would even build aircraft control towers, and staff them with controllers equipped with headphones made of bark and twigs. They believed that if they did this the gods would return and bring them more goods. It seems incredible but its true, and its a very interesting study on human religion. I was awqare of the cargo cult. You'll notice that those cults do not view planes as Gods, but as the mean their Gods would use to return. In more technologically advanced socieites, you will not find many people of faith who mistake unexplained physical phenomenum for deities. Edited September 5, 2011 by CANADIEN Quote
cybercoma Posted September 5, 2011 Report Posted September 5, 2011 In more technologically advanced socieites, you will not find many people of faith who mistake unexplained physical phenomenum for deities. qualifier. Quote
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2011 Report Posted September 5, 2011 Thank God I'm not one. If it works for you, great. Quote
betsy Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Your 55 articles of meaningless jibgerish dont prove anything beyond your inability to master even elementary school level logic. Phoooey! All you do is blab. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? If you don't agree with the 55 listed facts - then contradict them! Individually, and specifically! However, you do need to support your contradictions with facts! From credible sources. You can keep giving your adhominems, your straw men, your interpretations and your views, but keep in mind personal opinion are taken with a mega bag of salt. Edited September 5, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Holy mackerel, I didn't know there's this! I missed this string, guys. Dre, I could kiss you! You're truly another gift that keeps on giving. Most Christians are. Theyre a little more resistant and it often takes a little extra time but they come around. Oh boy. Remember that statement very well, Dre. It'll come back and slam you later. Big time. Which underscores the bizzare and hopeless position Betsy finds herself in. Shes on board full of mostly atheists and agnostics ranting aboud Dawkins and "new atheism". But she cant even sell her crap to other Christians, who are starting to accept evolution in greater and greater numbers, and finding ways to reconcile science with their philisophical and spiritual beliefs. Ehhh? You've been dozing all this time? What do you think I'm selling with Intelligent Design? Why do I say "science is a tool being used by God?" What do you think this statement - Christians can go where the scientific evidence leads them - means? What is it about you atheists that have this comprehension-impairment, technical brain problems processing data, and poor eyesight? Speaking of evolution, as a disciple of Neo-Darwinism, you should be in big panic mode by now - because you are devolving - degenerating towards certain extinction! With those kinds of serious malfunctions, how do you expect to last? Biblical creationism is on the run... thats why Betsy is afraid. And modern Christians are ditching the whole concept of biblical literalism because they just cant live in the modern world if they dont, and the reality is they dont need to! The bible was written by Roman aristocrats generations after Christ was already dead. People can lead a spiritually fullfilled life without believing every word of it. I don't think anyone who's bold enough to throw the gauntlet repeatedly with a challenge to try to contradict is anything but afraid! I don't think anyone who keeps shaking the tree that results in a commotion of noisy, chattering monkeys is anything but afraid. Actually, it's the monkeys who seem so nervously agitated! Edited September 5, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Ill try my best but god isnt a word with any real definition. 1. The personal creator god characters in modern monotheistic religions definately dont exist, but its not impossible that an entity might exist that has some of the attributes that religionists believe gods have. Its a hard question to answer because theres no universal definition of the word god. If youre a guppy in a fish tank are the gigantic mysterious creatures moving around on the other side of the glass, and dropping food from the sky gods? Look at cargoists... their gods definately exist (they're planes and soldiers). 2. No I dont. I self describe as agnostic because humans are like those guppies gazing out through the glass. We know almost nothing and we see almost nothing. Ha-ha-ha ha-ha-ha ROFL ha-ha-ha Ill try my best but god isnt a word with any real definition. 1. The personal creator god characters in modern monotheistic religions definately dont exist, but its not impossible that an entity might exist that has some of the attributes that religionists believe gods have. And what do you call that Entity? If youre a guppy in a fish tank are the gigantic mysterious creatures moving around on the other side of the glass, and dropping food from the sky gods? Put yourself in the tail of the guppy. If you're in that fish tank and there's nowhere to get any food except the food that drops from above - like manna from guppy heaven - wouldn't you associate life-giving food to the mysterious creatures moving around on the other side of the glass? A foolishly stubborn guppy may not call that mysterious creature, God. It may instead call Him, the Entity...... ...but really, what's in a name if it smacks of basically the same thing? Does calling a cat, a feline, makes her a non-cat? Remember, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck.... ...so what's with all this, "Entity?" You're not fooling anyone. You might as well refer to Him as the Intelligent Designer. Or better yet, God. Anyway I don't think a lot of humans I know, would compare their thinking to that of a guppy! Edited September 5, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Now, let's go back to this statement you made: Most Christians are. Theyre a little more resistant and it often takes a little extra time but they come around. Well....well....well.....after all the song-and-dance by Dre...... 1. The personal creator god characters in modern monotheistic religions definately dont exist, but its not impossible that an entity might exist that has some of the attributes that religionists believe gods have. What exactly are those attributes you're referring to that this Entity have? You can squirm and flip and flop....but my, I've got you hooked! Though it's taking so painstakingly slow, Dre....looks like it's you who's starting to come around. Edited September 5, 2011 by betsy Quote
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