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What is a Christian?


betsy

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Christian - An irritional individual with an uncanny desperate will to appear morally superior. Often someone who warps the teachings of christ to rationalize every decision they make including theft, manipulation, violence and even hate crimes.

Substitute Marx for Christ and out comes Atheist :)

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Again with the irony. What do YOU know about Christian values? That is the point isn't it - your ability to "know" anything outside of the mental structures you have created to substantiate a delusional sense of superior knowledge.

You don't even know your "own group" and, furthermore, cannot engage in any sort of meaningful discussion in which the nature of those internal truisms can be honestly examined in the open. All you appear to be able to do is parrot.

But despite the parrot's best effort at repeating The Word, it still doesn't know what The Word actually means.

But how do you know the parrot doesn't know what the Word actually means? :blink:

That's one of the gripes I've mentioned above.....like Dre, you're just winging it!

What do you know about The Word???

Boy, you don't even agree on the simple, validity of the Bible - you can't even grasp the scale of significance that's being given in the other topic - and here you go trying to lecture on The Word, and intricacies of Christian values? :lol:

Like....you seem to imply a Christian must be perfect? That erring is an opportunity for a "gotcha" moment? :)

Anyway, whether I sin or not, let me worry about myself.... after all it is I who'll face my God for judgement.

In the meantime, you focus. You're all over the place!

I don't know why you're obsessed with hypochondria! :rolleyes:

Do focus on the real argument at hand.

Edited by betsy
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First of all, it's not a popular usage the way you "abstractly" try to define what is a Christian.

Of course, it's not. I said so myself.

There's no one else on this thread aside from you who defines it "abstractly" like you do.

Why should I care ? Should people abandon their ideas because no one else on a web board believes them ?

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What do you know about Christian values?

Did you yourself say that you are not the one who decides who is Christian and who isn't ? I think that's a valid argument, but yet you seem to be arguing from authority here - telling another poster that you KNOW what something means and have some authority to decide what it means.

This is called arguing from authority, and it's a fallacy.

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Christian - An irritional individual with an uncanny desperate will to appear morally superior. Often someone who warps the teachings of christ to rationalize every decision they make including theft, manipulation, violence and even hate crimes.

Your definition only. Thanks - we'll add it to the definition pile.

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I have asked you repeatedly to not make this about you and me, and you still refuse.

But like I said....how can this not ULTIMATELY be about your belief and my belief?

Your opinion on the number one tenet of Christianity is just that - an opinion.

No. It's a fact. Christian philisophy is primarily anchored in belief in God - the God whom Jesus says is The Father.

All of Jesus' philosophy - all the good things you like about His teachings - they're all for the purpose of pleasing and obeying that God! In order to gain eternal life!

I ask you again: let's argue about this objectively and not personally. I do not want this to descend into a pit of personal insults.

We are arguing objectively.

Okay, why would someone who don't believe in the Christian God call himself a Christian?

You gave your answers. I base my responses on your answers!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and it should be respected whether one believes in the logic behind it or not.

Ahh....therefore you don't want a debate. You just want me to "respect"...which means to agree! Not to contradict.

This reminds me of an AA movie scene - "Hi. My name is So-and-so, and I'm an alcoholic."

Okay. :)

Then why the heck are we discussing this? Why are we wasting time?

I posted the topic to discuss! To argue!

It was inspired by Canadien's sudden declaration that he is Christian - like I just stepped on a landmine that blew me away! For he didn't come accros as a Christian at all - basing on all his responses.

Edited by betsy
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Did you yourself say that you are not the one who decides who is Christian and who isn't ?

Yes.

I think that's a valid argument, but yet you seem to be arguing from authority here -

You got that right I'm arguing from Authority. Authority of the Bible.

telling another poster that you KNOW what something means and have some authority to decide what it means.

She is an atheist, right? She doesn't believe in the validity of the Bible, or the existence of God! Furthermore, her previous responses have already shown and proven how much she knows about the Bible. And it's not very much at all....other than the simplistic catechism or intro to the Bible given to children!

This is called arguing from authority, and it's a fallacy.

It's called, common sense.

Reason. (and by that, I don't mean "excuses.")

Rational thinking.

Edited by betsy
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But like I said....how can this not ULTIMATELY be about your belief and my belief?

Any argument is ultimately about the people making it. Nietzsche wrote about that. But there is an argument in front of us that is about the points you and I are making, so let's talk about that.

I was discussing the Iraq War on a board about 7 years ago when the poster bailed on the argument saying "well, you're French so that's why you have your beliefs"... I scratched my head where he got that idea until I realized that my user name was "Lafleur" from a hockey forum !

No. It's a fact. Christian philisophy is primarily anchored in belief in God - the God whom Jesus says is The Father.

I disagree. I think it's based on the rules for living not on the idea of a higher power. Jesus was a teacher, and was giving instructions for living in the here and now. I think it's un-Christian to put the Golden Rule (his ultimate lesson) lower in priority than an abstract belief in God.

It if were lower in priority, then presumably someone who believed in God but didn't live the Golden Rule would presumably be more Christian than someone who did the reverse.

I believe that the Christian philosophy, once adopted, provided a framework for society that primarily governed personal behavior, irregardless of one's belief in heaven and hell, spirits or what have you.

All of Jesus' philosophy - all the good things you like about His teachings - they're all for the purpose of pleasing and obeying that God! In order to gain eternal life!

I think they're instructions for living, not for getting a payout in the afterlife.

Ahh....therefore you don't want a debate. You just want me to "respect"...which means to agree!

No. Respecting an opinion does not necessarily mean agreeing with it.

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Any argument is ultimately about the people making it. Nietzsche wrote about that.

Thank you.

But there is an argument in front of us that is about the points you and I are making, so let's talk about that.

What other argument is that?

I was discussing the Iraq War on a board about 7 years ago when the poster bailed on the argument saying "well, you're French so that's why you have your beliefs"... I scratched my head where he got that idea until I realized that my user name was "Lafleur" from a hockey forum !

Were they talking about spiritual belief?

I disagree. I think it's based on the rules for living not on the idea of a higher power. Jesus was a teacher, and was giving instructions for living in the here and now. I think it's un-Christian to put the Golden Rule (his ultimate lesson) lower in priority than an abstract belief in God.

But that's point isn't it? If you take away God and the divinity of Jesus, the Golden rule doesn't become Christian anymore....it just becomes another rule.

That's why I told you there are other rules from other cultures that have something like the Golden Rule.

Christ mentioned the Golden Rule to simplify the explanation about loving one's neighbors - which is one of the two most important in the Commandments of God.

It if were lower in priority, then presumably someone who believed in God but didn't live the Golden Rule would presumably be more Christian than someone who did the reverse.

No....no..no...you're not getting the point.

If you take away God and the divinity of Jesus....you are changing the message of His philosophy.

And if you change the message of His philosophy....it is no longer His philosophy.

And if it is no longer His philosophy....then it is no longer Christian.

Believe that the Christian philosophy, once adopted, provided a framework for society that primarily governed personal behavior, irregardless of one's belief in heaven and hell, spirits or what have you.

The framework of our society is already based on that....irregardless of one's belief in heaven and hell. Our laws on murder, stealing, assault, perjury - all are in the teachings of Christ, that governs personal behaviour.

We used to reserve Sunday as a day of rest - but that's no longer. There's nothing of the "divine" or supernatural part in our framework now. And we don't call everyone who follows our framework a Christian.

I think they're instructions for living, not for getting a payout in the afterlife.

Then that's what you think. If that's how you think....what more can I say?

No. Respecting an opinion does not necessarily mean agreeing with it.

Like I said, what more can I say?

Although I find it intriguing since I've never come across someone like the one you describe: an atheist calling himself a "christian."

So, out of curiosity....please answer,

Why don't you want to be called an "atheist?"

Edited by betsy
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why would someone who don't believe in the Christian God call himself a Christian?
Why would someone who does believe in the Christian God call themselves a Christian? Jews and Muslims believe in the "Christian" God, but don't call themselves Christian. Satanists also happen to believe in the "Christian" God too.
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Why would someone who does believe in the Christian God call themselves a Christian? Jews and Muslims believe in the "Christian" God, but don't call themselves Christian. Satanists also happen to believe in the "Christian" God too.

Oh Cybercoma :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Do Muslims and Jews believe in Christ?

How can it be a Christian God if they don't even believe in Christ.

The root word. Christ. :D

MHardner is talking about the Christian philosophy.

Not Muslim. Not Jewish!

Wait a minute.....you do have a point....

Jews and Muslims believe in the "Christian" God, but don't call themselves Christian.

Anyway, explain that to MHardner! Those who already seem to get it half-right do not dare call themselves Christians....and yet, one who gets it all wrong calls himself one! Go figure.

Thank you for that.

Edited by betsy
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What other argument is that?

See the thread title.

Were they talking about spiritual belief?

No.

But that's point isn't it? If you take away God and the divinity of Jesus, the Golden rule doesn't become Christian anymore....it just becomes another rule.

I disagree. Christ said it so what else could it be ?

No....no..no...you're not getting the point.

If you take away God and the divinity of Jesus....you are changing the message of His philosophy.

And if you change the message of His philosophy....it is no longer His philosophy.

And if it is no longer His philosophy....then it is no longer Christian.

I disagree. Many Christians select different parts of the message to accept or ignore and this one makes more sense to me than other selections.

The framework of our society is already based on that....irregardless of one's belief in heaven and hell.

Yes, sometimes called our Christian-Judeo culture.

Then that's what you think. If that's how you think....what more can I say?

...

Why don't you want to be called an "atheist?"

Thanks for respecting my opinion. 'Atheist' has a firmer definition than 'Christian' in my opinion, and I don't fit the definition.

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But how do you know the parrot doesn't know what the Word actually means?

Why on earth would you think that it would? :blink:

That's one of the gripes I've mentioned above.....like Dre, you're just winging it!

You're the one that keeps going from doctor to doctor trying to get someone to validate your complaints to re-enforce your perfect opinion of your so-called knowledge. Not me. You are the one that started the thread, not me.

What do you know about The Word???

Enough to confidently spot the phoney parrots. How about you?

Boy, you don't even agree on the simple, validity of the Bible - you can't even grasp the scale of significance that's being given in the other topic - and here you go trying to lecture on The Word, and intricacies of Christian values?

A hypochondriac will frequently come up with new and different symptoms, usually as an avoidance mechanism towards discussing their actual condition of hypochondria. In your case you want to make this about Hardner or Dre, the Bible, Christian values or The Word. But it isn't. It is an epistemological condition you suffer from, unable to objectively verify your internal reality, but desperate to prove that you can. You need to, I don't.

Like....you seem to imply a Christian must be perfect? That erring is an opportunity for a "gotcha" moment?

No I don't, but you are free to believe that if you wish, and integrate that notion into your mental structures. It won't help you much, but you are free to do so anyways.

Anyway, whether I sin or not, let me worry about myself.... after all it is I who'll face my God for judgement.

Then why the desperate need to prove that the Bible is true or that you are a true Christian? I'll tell you why: because you suspect neither is true and you have to continually re-enforce that internal notion to keep the thought that you might be completely wrong, at bay. Even Jesus has his doubts, but not mighty betsy.

"Go and sin no more." Is that too difficult a phrase for you to understand?

In the meantime, you focus. You're all over the place!

I don't know why you're obsessed with hypochondria! :rolleyes:

Do focus on the real argument at hand.

Oh, but I am focused. You are the one that is scattered and trying to duck the obvious. Surely there is a YouTube video or some evangelical blog you can cite as a counter-measure to the epistemological argument of your knowledge. Surely, there are scholars you can cite and reams of scientific evidence that show - that prove to everyone here beyond any doubt - that you are a Christian.

Surely, a hig functioning Christian with an overwhelming wealth of faith and knowledge of The Truth such as you, must have this information at their fingertips ready to dispense to the meek and humble masses.

Come on betsy, you can do it.

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Why on earth would you think that it would? :blink:

Well I'm referring to the parrot! The parrot well-trained by the 4 horsemen.

Aside from the parrot...they've trained some seals too!

Oh, but I am focused. You are the one that is scattered and trying to duck the obvious. Surely there is a YouTube video or some evangelical blog you can cite as a counter-measure to the epistemological argument of your knowledge.

I've been distracted readiung the hypochondria part....

Uh....what epistomological argument is that again? Be specific. :)

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It's all here, in this thread.

Here and here.

And who sez it's incomplete? Where did you pull that one out? I already responded to that....asking you to give a back-up to your statement!

Where is it? GIve a credible source and let's talk.

I'm not gonna debate based on your personal opinion alone. Or imagined stuffs!

Boy, for all I know this is one of your hypochondria moment! :D

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Christian - An irritional individual with an uncanny desperate will to appear morally superior. Often someone who warps the teachings of christ to rationalize every decision they make including theft, manipulation, violence and even hate crimes.

Yes, as I pointed out on another thread, trashing all people with a belief system isn't productive or interesting.

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And who sez it's incomplete? Where did you pull that one out? I already responded to that....asking you to give a back-up to your statement!

I did, based on the fact that the Biblical recording of all the the Jesus character ever said or taught, in his entire lifetime, is very likely incomprehensive. The fact that the record we do have is such a small sub-set of the entire possible dataset, regarding the sub-set as non-comprehensive is a sound premise.

Do you have grounds to suggest that this premise cannot be true and that the Bible contains a comprehensive and complete recording of everyhing that Jesus ever taught?

Canon of the New Testament

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I did, based on the fact that the Biblical recording of all the the Jesus character ever said or taught, in his entire lifetime, is very likely incomprehensive.

Likely? Therefore you're just assuming? That's just your opinion? I'm not debating based on mere personal opinion.

Support your argument. Cite.

The fact that the record we do have is such a small sub-set of the entire possible dataset, regarding the sub-set as non-comprehensive is a sound premise.

Support your argument. Cite.

Do you have grounds to suggest that this premise cannot be true and that the Bible contains a comprehensive and complete recording of everyhing that Jesus ever taught?

Canon of the New Testament

Well I'm not reading the Catholic Bible...so I can't answer about their Bible. Ask Canadien.

It's important to know what Bible to read.

I am using the New King James or King James - which is the one most recommended and used by scholars. NIV is also recommended.

Edited by betsy
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Likely? Therefore you're just assuming? That's just your opinion? I'm not debating based on mere personal opinion.

No need to cite, I am making the statement myself. If you are unable to refute it, based on what is presented to you in plain language, then you concede the point to me. Plain and simple. Do you need a "cite" to know that 1+1=2? Come on now betsy, surely you can do better than that.

Well I'm not reading the Catholic Bible...so I can't answer about their Bible. Ask Canadien.

It's important to know what Bible to read.

I am using the New King James or King James - which is the one most recommended and used by scholars. NIV is also recommended.

Unimportant which Bible you are currently reading, it refers to the canon of the New Testament and how it came about. Every scholar will understand it's implications in any version of the Bible. Do you understand the implications of the formulation of the canon of the New Testament?

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No need to cite, I am making the statement myself. If you are unable to refute it, based on what is presented to you in plain language, then you concede the point to me. Plain and simple. Do you need a "cite" to know that 1+1=2? Come on now betsy, surely you can do better than that.

Yes, the point that it's all just assumption. It's all just your personal opinion - biased opinion - that's bent on maligning and ridiculing faith!

You've demonstrated how you could bomb in your assumptions! Well here's a sample.

Let me get this right: A creationist is introducing fossil ants as evidence of climate change having occurred in the early part of the eocene epoch ( hoping thereby to refute the human role in the current climate shift....)

Excuse me while I just... back away... slowly...

:D

Come off it Molly, we all know that the ant fossil is only 6 thousand years old!

Surprised to hear this from you. I thought you didn't believe in evolution?

Not only did they miss the "trick," but obviously they don't understand creationists....or evolution. Or both! :lol:

Well listen up, bumbling trio! :rolleyes:

------

What are you so afraid of? Why don't you cite? Because you just pulled it out of thin air!

Or parroted another new atheist somewhere online! He didn't give any cite....therefore you can't either. Ask him to give you a cite. Then give it here.

Why should I waste time on someone who's just pulling things out of thin air? You could take the bs anywhere you want....since it's all assumption.

What's the point in that? Unless you're just here catatonically tinkering away at the keys....with no purpose....no organization.....no meaning. I'm not like you.

Unimportant which Bible you are currently reading, it refers to the canon of the New Testament and how it came about. Every scholar will understand it's implications in any version of the Bible. Do you understand the implications of the formulation of the canon of the New Testament?

whatever.

Edited by betsy
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