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What is a Christian?


betsy

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No need to cite, I am making the statement myself. If you are unable to refute it, based on what is presented to you in plain language, then you concede the point to me. Plain and simple. Do you need a "cite" to know that 1+1=2? Come on now betsy, surely you can do better than that.

Furthermore, what are you saying? You're making that statement yourself....and? No one's stopping you. You can even believe in it if you want to.

But I'm not going to play "philosopher" and pretend there is rational discussion with someone who cannot even grasp the...

... full implication of having several (51 at latest count) scientifically proven facts all found in and supporting A SINGLE ANCIENT Book that was written thousands of years ago!

If you can't find any logic in that....or see the significance of that....then gimme a break! :lol:

Edited by betsy
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What are you so afraid of? Why don't you cite? Because you just pulled it out of thin air!

Or parroted another new atheist somewhere online! He didn't give any cite....therefore you can't either. Ask him to give you a cite. Then give it here.

Why should I waste time on someone who's just pulling things out of thin air? You could take the bs anywhere you want....since it's all assumption.

What's the point in that? Unless you're just here catatonically tinkering away at the keys....with no purpose....no organization.....no meaning. I'm not like you.

If you are unable to refute my statement - with the wealth of resources at your fingertips - then you concede the point to me and tarnish your credibility with regard to your knowledge of the material. There is no reason for me to "cite" because I am formulating a fairly straight forward premise. One to which you have no answer whatsoever?

Well, that was easy. :P

whatever.

So you don't understand the implications of the formulation of the canon of the New Testament?

Or don't want to understand the implications?

I think it is the latter, since if you concede the implications of the formulation of the canon of the New Testament, then there is the possibility that not everything Jesus taught is available to us through the Biblical record, fragmentary as it was to begin with.

Edited by Shwa
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Furthermore, what are you saying? You're making that statement yourself....and? No one's stopping you. You can even believe in it if you want to.

But I'm not going to play "philosopher" and pretend there is rational discussion with someone who cannot even grasp the...

Any excuse eh betsy? All your knowledge and you can't even supply a simple answer to a fairly simple premise.

... full implication of having several (51 at latest count) scientifically proven facts all found in and supporting A SINGLE ANCIENT Book that was written thousands of years ago!

If you can't find any logic in that....or see the significance of that....then gimme a break!

51 scientifically proven facts in a book such as the Bible isn't statistically significant and thus the Bible cannot be considered scientifically reliable to any great degree. There are more than 51 "scientifically proven facts" in your average Star Trek novel, but I wouldn't be looking for Captain Kirk anytime soon.

A question I ask vehement atheists can also be posed to you: how does science prove morality? Ever asked yourself that?

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51 scientifically proven facts in a book such as the Bible isn't statistically significant

To you perhaps....and to those who don't see the logic in that!

and thus the Bible cannot be considered scientifically reliable to any great degree.

<shaking head> :rolleyes:

For the record:

the Bible is not trying to prove science. But on the other hand, science supports the Bible.

Big difference.

There are more than 51 "scientifically proven facts" in your average Star Trek novel, but I wouldn't be looking for Captain Kirk anytime soon.

:blink:

<shaking head> :rolleyes: Oh boy......

ANCIENT BOOK!

You're saying STAR TREK NOVEL's been around for thousands of years??? It's an ancient book?

A question I ask vehement atheists can also be posed to you: how does science prove morality? Ever asked yourself that?

And here's my answer to a "vehement" Shwa:

Go look it up on Star Trek! :lol::lol:

Edited by betsy
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Want to know what a Christian is?

I'll show you Christians.

A couple who, because of their faith in the creating God, left heir confortable life and are serving the poor in a Third World country.

A man who, because of his faith in the creating God, spends one evening a week providing security at a Out of the Cold location.

A women who, because of her faith in the creating God, has pledged to live her life in a religious community in a foreign country.

People who, because of their faith in the creating God, have shared the lives of people with developmenttal disabilities.

Men and women who, because of their faith in the creating God, live the best that they can, in their ordinary lives, with successes and with failures, the call to serve God and love others.

THAT,s how one recognizes a Christian.

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Want to know what a Christian is?

I'll show you Christians.

A couple who, because of their faith in the creating God, left heir confortable life and are serving the poor in a Third World country.

A man who, because of his faith in the creating God, spends one evening a week providing security at a Out of the Cold location.

A women who, because of her faith in the creating God, has pledged to live her life in a religious community in a foreign country.

People who, because of their faith in the creating God, have shared the lives of people with developmenttal disabilities.

Men and women who, because of their faith in the creating God, live the best that they can, in their ordinary lives, with successes and with failures, the call to serve God and love others.

THAT,s how one recognizes a Christian.

Since you identify yourself as a Chrsitian, do you then believe that God PLANNED, DESIGNED and CREATED everything?

That nothing comes from nothing?

That's settled then?

Edited by betsy
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Since you identify yourself as a Chrsitian, do you then believe that God PLANNED, DESIGNED and CREATED everything?

That nothing comes from nothing?

That's settled then?

It has already been settled. Any claim that I haven't settled it by stating clearly what I believe is a lie.

Edited by CANADIEN
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It has already been settled. Any claim that I haven't settled it by stating clearly what I believe is a lie.

So you believe that God Planned, Designed and Created everything!

That nothing comes from nothing.

Okay. Now I understand you.

Well, I do wish and hope you understand where I'm coming from too.

We're not really miles apart in belief, you know. I just happen to believe that there some passages in Genesis that are literal.

Edited by betsy
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This topic is inspired by the discussion with Canadien in the other topic, The Bible. It is an interesting question for the situation is not unique. There are those who profess and believe themselves to be Christians, and yet do not adhere nor even believe some of the truths that Jesus Christ had taught.

I would like to emphasize that this is just for the sake of discussion.

I take the position of a Christian who believes that to be a Christian, the most basic requirement will be to believe that everything Jeus Christ - and his Apostles, whom He personally appointed, and taught, to continue His work - revealed, said and instructed are true. By everything, it means all!

Out of curiosity, do you believe in the "eye of the needle" parable?

I know some Christians--particularly those who heretically beleive that the wealthy are superior--have attempted to water it down, so that an important parable by God-in-the-flesh amounts to "you can't take it with you." :)

I ain't buying that.

so what do you think?

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Want to know what a Christian is?

I'll show you Christians.

A couple who, because of their faith in the creating God, left heir confortable life and are serving the poor in a Third World country.

A man who, because of his faith in the creating God, spends one evening a week providing security at a Out of the Cold location.

A women who, because of her faith in the creating God, has pledged to live her life in a religious community in a foreign country.

People who, because of their faith in the creating God, have shared the lives of people with developmenttal disabilities.

Men and women who, because of their faith in the creating God, live the best that they can, in their ordinary lives, with successes and with failures, the call to serve God and love others.

THAT,s how one recognizes a Christian.

Other than the god part it sounds like your talking about a Buddhist. B)

But if these are the values they hold I'm all for Christianity.

Edited by CitizenX
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Out of curiosity, do you believe in the "eye of the needle" parable?

I know some Christians--particularly those who heretically beleive that the wealthy are superior--have attempted to water it down, so that an important parable by God-in-the-flesh amounts to "you can't take it with you." :)

I ain't buying that. so what do you think?

I believe the parable is true. Not that there is anything wrong with wealth....but how one looks at it.

Who is your master?

It is far harder for a wealthy person to follow the teachings of Christ. How many times do we hear about wealthy people so consumed with greed that what they have is never enough! They have to acquire more....

A wealthy person can so be consumed by the security his wealth brings, become so confident that he forgets from whom all that he has comes from. Also, wealth can offer so many distractions.

It is easier for a financially-struggling person to remember God, to humble himself before Him - reaffirm his dependence and placing his trust in God - and accept that all His will be done.

We tend to call on God when we are suffering....and we can easily forget Him when everything is

"smooth-sailing."

Here is a bible study note on the parable.

Parable of the Rich Young Man

(From Forerunner Commentary) Matthew 19:16-26 (Go to this verse :: Verse pop-up)

We see a very polite, respectful, and eager young man who leaves Christ and goes away sorrowful. Why? The story makes it clear that he is young, and Luke tells us he is a ruler (Luke 18:18), possibly a magistrate or a kind of justice of the Peace.

In the parallel account in Mark, we are told that the young man came "running" up to Christ and "knelt" before him (Mark 10:17), indicating a sense of urgency and respect. He then shows submissiveness and a willingness to be taught when he addresses Jesus as "Good Teacher." This was not a typical form of address for the Jews at this time. A more respectful greeting may not be found in the entire Bible.

This young man came, not to tempt Christ, but to learn from him. We know that he was not a Sadducee because it is clear that he believed in eternal life and wanted to attain it—an unusual goal in someone of his position and age. A man of wealth will often trust his riches and not be interested in what God has to offer. The young do not often look beyond today, much less to the far reaches of eternity.

This rich young ruler was a very sensible fellow. He knew something must be done to attain this happiness; eternal life is not a game of chance or blind fate. Romans 2:6-7 tells us that we are rewarded for our works, good and bad, and that "eternal life [goes] to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality."

Christ's response to all this is interesting. He first establishes that none are truly good except God, and to Him goes all glory. Then Jesus tells him to "keep the commandments," specifically listing the last six of the ten commandments, the ones dealing with human-to-human relationships. The Jews of the time were well-versed in the mechanics of the first four commandments, in terms of the letter of the law, so Christ lists the ones in which they were weakest.

It seems so simple, right? In order to have eternal life, "keep the commandments." How do today's professing Christians, who claim the law has been done away, get around this simple instruction? Other verses, such as John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments," reinforce this straightforward directive.

The young ruler tells Christ that he has kept the commandments since he was a child. What else should he do? Jesus does not contradict him. In Mark's account, it says He looked at him and "loved him." Possibly, this man was adept at keeping the letter of the law, but he was coming up short in abiding by the spirit of the law. Perhaps Jesus saw that he was absolutely sincere in his efforts to abide by those commandments.

Whatever the case, Christ does not attempt to sermonize on this point. The way the young man phrased his question, "What do I still lack?" smacks a bit of pride or self-righteousness. In effect, he says, "I'm keeping the commandments and have done well in that regard all my life. Show me where I'm coming up short."

Unlike what many of us would do, Christ avoids becoming mired in a dispute about this claim, but gets right to the bottom line: The young man's love of the world. He tells him to sell his possessions, give the money away, and follow Him as a disciple. Yet, the young ruler was unwilling to do this. His treasure was here on earth. His money exerted a stronger tug on his heart than Christ did. Matthew Henry says in his commentary, "When we embrace Christ, we must let go of the world, for we cannot serve God and money."

To the young man's credit, he was not hypocritical. He did not pretend he could do this when he could not. He knew what this meant: Christ's high standards and his own ambitions and desires were incompatible. Being both thoughtful and well-intentioned, he went away "sorrowful."

What did he possess that had such a hold on him as to make him willing to walk away from eternal life? To put it into terms we can relate to: Did he have a fully equipped game room with pinball, billiards, jukebox, and wet bar? Maybe he had the latest and hottest SUV? Perhaps his living room sported a plasma television, where he could kick back and watch all the sports he could handle?

What was holding him back? What did he really trust in? There is nothing spiritually wrong with wealth itself. The Bible is full of examples of godly men who were very wealthy—for instance, great men of God like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, and David. The problem is in the love of money.

Because we live in a consumer-driven society, the love of money can hold us back too. Advertisements call to us constantly, informing us of "needs" we did not even know we had. It is difficult to maintain a proper balance while under such an assault. We may not think of it this way, but it could be considered a blessing not to have great wealth because of the additional stress it can put on our spiritual lives.

It is instructive to study what Christ had to say to His disciples after the rich young ruler sadly walked away. Twice Jesus tells us how hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God. The Christian walk is not easy for anyone, but it is particularly hard for the wealthy. In fact, Jesus goes on to say, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

Read more: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/3873/Parable-of-Rich-Young-Man.htm#ixzz1WvipCiGf

Edited by betsy
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Let's cut to the chase. I CANNOT be a Christian. How could I? I see the Bible, the Word of God, differently than betsy.

No. You couldn't be a Christian because of your own stance on issues.

1. Even after the fact of explaining to you why I have to use science to prove the Bible is the Word of God - because I'm debating with atheists and skeptics, who wouldn't, understandably, just take my words based merely on faith - you still took on the position to try to bust and negate the listed facts in The Bible. You ignore that completely.

It is so surprising to see that the most rabid and hostile voice comes from someone claiming to be a Christian.

2. Your claim that presenting science supports the Bible is "blasphemous." Blasphemous towards who?

Towards the godly scientists who presented you with the theory of evolution???

3. You're right there like a shadow on practically every fact that is being listed - ever vigilant to attack it.

I did a latest recap of all the 55 listed facts. Here's your response:

Out of common courtesy for others, i will not debunk what has been already debunked.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

If there is anyone who's committing such hair-raising blasphemy - it comes from the christian who tries his darndest to show that the Bible is nothing more than a "history" book written by outdated, simple-minded people who should just be regarded as fiction writers!

In other words, this "christian" is saying the Bible IS NOT the Word of God. And he's doing exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do: to try to debunk every fact that is listed.

So, why do you act so surprised that I look at you as an "enemy" of my God?

4. Science was given by God as a tool to let us know what He wants us to know, at His own convenience, following His own plan, His own time-line! You have a problem with that. Your indignation seems to be more because I have the audacity to say so....that somehow, I am being disrespectful to science!

That's why I ask you several times: who is your god? The Christian God....or science.

5. You say creatinism is a fraud. You say you believe in evolution. Yet, you don't support Intelligent Design - at least that's the message I'm getting from you.

Even though I've given an article that explains where Intelligent Designers stand.

To Intelligent Designers, evolution is not off the table. They go where the evidence leads them. Let me repeat that....

They go where evidence - scientific evidence - leads them!

Isn't that supposed to be compatible about your reasoning?

Shouldn't you go where scientific evidence leads you?

If you don't require the necessity of scientific evidence in your belief on evolution - doesn't that mean your belief in evolution is therefore based entirely on faith? Let me repeat that:

If you don't require the necessity of scientific evidence in your belief on evolution - doesn't that mean your belief in evolution is therefore based entirely on faith?

YOU BECOME JUST LIKE THE ATHEISTS DIGGING IN THEIR HEELS, CLINGING TO THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION - DESPITE LACK OF ANY COMPELLING EVIDENCE(S) - BECAUSE THEY FIGHT FOR THEIR FAITH!

6. William Craig said it so, too. Christians can go where the evidence leads them.

He went on further to hypothesize that if evolution is true, it would've had to be a miracle!

A proof of God's existence! I posted this fact in The Bible.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

#55.

FACT: "The special creationist's picture of the world's formation is not a necessary component of Christian belief."

What was your attack-response to that?

Interesting point 55, though, coming from someone who insists that Christians who KNOW that the "special creationist" picture is a non-sense are in fact atheists.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

How well you wave the flag for the atheists!

Even though science has not proven the non-existence of God, atheists are sensible because they said "special creationism"

is non-sense. Like as if atheists will ever say it isn't non-sense!

Do you blame me if I look at you as an atheist posing as a christian?

A wolf in a very skimpy sheep's clothing?

Christ warns us of that in the New Testament. He warns us of those who use His name to lead others astray.

I don't know what's in your heart. Your intentions may well be good - but your method is coming across the wrong way - very much against the Bible?

Perhaps you do need another self-analysis, not if you are a new atheist. This time ask yourself honestly if you are truly what you claim to be: a Christian.

God be with you and bless you. And this is not a sarcasm.

Edited by betsy
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No. You couldn't be a Christian because of your own stance on issues.

1. Even after the fact of explaining to you why I have to use science to prove the Bible is the Word of God - because I'm debating with atheists and skeptics, who wouldn't, understandably, just take my words based merely on faith - you still took on the position to try to bust and negate the listed facts in The Bible. You ignore that completely.

It is so surprising to see that the most rabid and hostile voice comes from someone claiming to be a Christian.

2. Your claim that presenting science supports the Bible is "blasphemous." Blasphemous towards who?

Towards the godly scientists who presented you with the theory of evolution???

3. You're right there like a shadow on practically every fact that is being listed - ever vigilant to attack it.

I did a latest recap of all the 55 listed facts. Here's your response:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

If there is anyone who's committing such hair-raising blasphemy - it comes from the christian who tries his darndest to show that the Bible is nothing more than a "history" book written by outdated, simple-minded people who should just be regarded as fiction writers!

In other words, this "christian" is saying the Bible IS NOT the Word of God. And he's doing exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do: to try to debunk every fact that is listed.

So, why do you act so surprised that I look at you as an "enemy" of my God?

4. Science was given by God as a tool to let us know what He wants us to know, at His own convenience, following His own plan, His own time-line! You have a problem with that. Your indignation seems to be more because I have the audacity to say so....that somehow, I am being disrespectful to science!

That's why I ask you several times: who is your god? The Christian God....or science.

5. You say creatinism is a fraud. You say you believe in evolution. Yet, you don't support Intelligent Design - at least that's the message I'm getting from you.

Even though I've given an article that explains where Intelligent Designers stand.

To Intelligent Designers, evolution is not off the table. They go where the evidence leads them. Let me repeat that....

They go where evidence - scientific evidence - leads them!

Isn't that supposed to be compatible about your reasoning?

Shouldn't you go where scientific evidence leads you?

If you don't require the necessity of scientific evidence in your belief on evolution - doesn't that mean your belief in evolution is therefore based entirely on faith? Let me repeat that:

If you don't require the necessity of scientific evidence in your belief on evolution - doesn't that mean your belief in evolution is therefore based entirely on faith?

YOU BECOME JUST LIKE THE ATHEISTS DIGGING IN THEIR HEELS, CLINGING TO THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION - DESPITE LACK OF ANY COMPELLING EVIDENCE(S) - BECAUSE THEY FIGHT FOR THEIR FAITH!

6. William Craig said it so, too. Christians can go where the evidence leads them.

He went on further to hypothesize that if evolution is true, it would've had to be a miracle!

A proof of God's existence! I posted this fact in The Bible.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

#55.

FACT: "The special creationist's picture of the world's formation is not a necessary component of Christian belief."

What was your attack-response to that?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1125

How well you wave the flag for the atheists!

Even though science has not proven the non-existence of God, atheists are sensible because they said "special creationism"

is non-sense. Like as if atheists will ever say it isn't non-sense!

Do you blame me if I look at you as an atheist posing as a christian?

A wolf in a very skimpy sheep's clothing?

Christ warns us of that in the New Testament. He warns us of those who use His name to lead others astray.

I don't know what's in your heart. Your intentions may well be good - but your method is coming across the wrong way - very much against the Bible?

Perhaps you do need another self-analysis, not if you are a new atheist. This time ask yourself honestly if you are truly what you claim to be: a Christian.

God be with you and bless you. And this is not a sarcasm.

Thank you for once again misrepresentating what I say, and for outright lying about me. May God forgive you.

Edited by CANADIEN
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Your 55 articles of meaningless jibgerish dont prove anything beyond your inability to master even elementary school level logic.

Don't forget, we are talking about a person whose idea of logic is to go everywhere scientific evidence will lead will rejecting scientific evidence that doesn't support her literalist view of the word of God.

As for myself, I am more than ready to go where scientific evidence leads. After all, scietific evidence validates the theory of evolution, despite claims to the contrary.

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Don't forget, we are talking about a person whose idea of logic is to go everywhere scientific evidence will lead will rejecting scientific evidence that doesn't support her literalist view of the word of God.

As for myself, I am more than ready to go where scientific evidence leads. After all, scietific evidence validates the theory of evolution, despite claims to the contrary.

As for myself, I am more than ready to go where scientific evidence leads.

Most Christians are. Theyre a little more resistant and it often takes a little extra time but they come around.

Which underscores the bizzare and hopeless position Betsy finds herself in. Shes on board full of mostly atheists and agnostics ranting aboud Dawkins and "new atheism". But she cant even sell her crap to other Christians, who are starting to accept evolution in greater and greater numbers, and finding ways to reconcile science with their philisophical and spiritual beliefs.

Biblical creationism is on the run... thats why Betsy is afraid. And modern Christians are ditching the whole concept of biblical literalism because they just cant live in the modern world if they dont, and the reality is they dont need to! The bible was written by Roman aristocrats generations after Christ was already dead. People can lead a spiritually fullfilled life without believing every word of it.

Whats odd, is that Betsy would focus on Dawkins or "new atheists". These people dont threaten religion in any meaningfull way. Dawkins has probably never turned a single Christian into an atheist with all his books combined... and atheists are afraid of their own shadows and tiptoe around trying to avoid offending religion for the most part. Its tragically misguided... these people are not the ones behind slow death that biblical literalism has been dying since the industrial revolution.

Shes waging her little holy war on the wrong bunch of people. :lol: Why does she expect to win this argument here when she cant even win it in her church or prayer group. She probably wont even win it with her own kids once all is said and done.

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....Shes waging her little holy war on the wrong bunch of people. :lol: Why does she expect to win this argument here when she cant even win it in her church or prayer group. She probably wont even win it with her own kids once all is said and done.

No, member betsy has already won, particularly in the case of agnostics. Her faith and commitment to a belief system based on the Bible has more substance than those who waffle in the wind, unsure of such a foundation. Good for her....

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No, member betsy has already won, particularly in the case of agnostics. Her faith and commitment to a belief system based on the Bible has more substance than those who waffle in the wind, unsure of such a foundation. Good for her....

Actually its pretty much devoid of any real substance once you take a close look. I consider myself an agnostic, but I need no such "foundation". I barely even CARE if a god exists or not. But yeah... if you consider rigid uncompromising adherence to a doctrine a meaninfull foundation then I guess Betsy, and UFO enthusiasts, and people that believe their horoscopes have a foundation I dont have... or want... or need.

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Actually its pretty much devoid of any real substance once you take a close look. I consider myself an agnostic, but I need no such "foundation". I barely even CARE if a god exists or not.

I know...agnostics like you are either still searching for "the answer", or are in a permanent state of spiritual drift.

But yeah... if you consider rigid uncompromising adherence to a doctrine a meaninfull foundation then I guess Betsy, and UFO enthusiasts, and people that believe their horoscopes have a foundation I dont have... or want... or need.

You are missing the point entirely....member betsy has found a belief system that works for her. It matters not what you may think of another's commitment to such a belief system. As an agnostic, you are readily admitting to having...none.

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I know...agnostics like you are either still searching for "the answer", or are in a permanent state of spiritual drift.

No Im not in search of anything. Its clear that humans have worshipped thousands of diferent dieties not because any of them actually exist, but because its something humans are predisposed to. The only reason I describe myself is agnostic is because I find it scientifically possible that an entity or race could exist somewhere in the universe that would fit most of the human definitions of "god".

You are missing the point entirely....member betsy has found a belief system that works for her. It matters not what you may think of another's commitment to such a belief system.

Its not that Im missing the point, its that there isnt one.

As an agnostic, you are readily admitting to having...none.

Why do you say that? I definately have a belief system.

Edited by dre
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No Im not in search of anything. Its clear that humans have worshipped thousands of diferent dieties not because any of them actually exist, but because its something humans are predisposed to. The only reason I describe myself is agnostic is because I find it scientifically possible that an entity or race could exist somewhere in the universe that would fit most of the human definitions of "god".

...and other humans have resolved the issue to their satisfaction, regardless of your smug opinion(s) about how they have done so.

Its not that Im missing the point, its that there isnt one.

...the point is faith...in anything...that can't be "proven" by definition. This abstraction escapes your narrow perspective.

No... this is patently stupid to say that agnostics dont have a belief system. I seriously doubt you really believe that. In fact its highly unlikely you belief any of the crap youre spouting here.

The "crap" I spout is from my own "belief system". In this context, you are always hedging your bet, while member betsy is all in for hers. Attacking believers as "stupid" purveyors of "meaningless jibgerish" only demonstrates your own insecurities. So be afraid...be very afraid...of people who actually believe in...something.

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