The "growth economy" is not sustainable.

[dre]

Why? Because we should plunder people's assets as a way of paying off the debt?

Well the problem is thats the only place where the money exists to tax.

Remember.. when the government is really taxing "people" its taxing the economy. Taxing the incomes of individuals is simply the method of doing it.

And the reality is that the bottom 50% of society only controls a few measly percent of the economy (2.5 in the US). You just arent going to get much money out of these people. The bottom 50% in the US only OWNS about 1.5 trillion in wealth. You could completely strip them of EVERYTHING they own and it would still only cover the defecit for about one year.

[jacee]

It's been interesting reading this thread ... and quite frightening. The only solution is more of the same greed and exploitation that got us here ... and let's suck some more out of the middle class, until there isn't one anymore. Then what?

Clearly there must be some solutions you aren't mentioning because they'll upset someone's applecart perhaps?

It seems to me that there is a need for much broader input into the finance system than has been the case to date, a more broadly based discussion of how the finance system can work for everyone, not just the superrich.

It would seem a good time to revisit our purposes as a human society.

Forget the trickle down and float every boat crapola. Be creative.Think outside the box. Suggest something wild and new ... and humane.

[Michael Hardner]

Forget the trickle down and float every boat crapola. Be creative.Think outside the box. Suggest something wild and new ... and humane.

How about reengineering government to help people instead of... doing not sure what?

Those 90% tax rates funded valuable investments in the country - interstate highways and research. My impression is that there is more being spent, but it's not being used effectively.

How much needs to be done in North America now ? There are large cities with huge dead areas, and people who are receiving funds but not improving themselves - lots of areas for investment.

And the biggest problem, IMO, is that we have no good infrastructure to discuss problems. The press is effectively dead. Use the web to discuss problems, to address issues and explore alternatives, and to publicize the particulars of government operations and projects. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[bush_cheney2004]

How about reengineering government to help people instead of... doing not sure what?

Those 90% tax rates funded valuable investments in the country - interstate highways and research. My impression is that there is more being spent, but it's not being used effectively.

Krikey...if you are going to channel the United States interstate highway system, please do it correctly...it was paid for nearly 100% by US federal gasoline taxes.

And the biggest problem, IMO, is that we have no good infrastructure to discuss problems. The press is effectively dead. Use the web to discuss problems, to address issues and explore alternatives, and to publicize the particulars of government operations and projects. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Uh-huh...the US gave you that too and it didn't cost Canada much at all.

[Michael Hardner]

Krikey...if you are going to channel the United States interstate highway system, please do it correctly...it was paid for nearly 100% by US federal gasoline taxes.

Really ? Did not know that. Please give me a cite as I will use this information in future.

Did they reduce the taxes at some point ? Seems odd that they could fund the construction of the system that way, but maintaining it seems like such a problem.

[William Ashley]

World population is still increasing - so the idea of an expanding economy is more or less like this

portion of population with "essential demands"

portion of population with "luxury demands"

Essential demands will always increase (although if excess is prior used then it wont so a fat america going to a thin america may see a decrease in essentials this can create less agregate demand in areas such as medical or transport costs but it leads to a healthier and more efficient america - to stem the economic loss due to declined demand you need to increase the population) and are dependent on increased production which may require access to more resources to fullfill that need.

Luxury is variable.

There should be increased efficiency due to technology - however this can be offset by resource depletion in non sustainable cycles.

As an economy ages, the more sustainability needs to be integrated in the economic cycle.

The luxury factor is what often creates context of wealth.

IN reality the economy is growing if there is a larger population that is healthy and resources are intact to continue supporting them, or supporting a larger population.

The measure of economic success cannot rely on monetary success alone but must be based on the sustainability of a the society and how protected that society is from failure. Valuation is a very cultural idea.

However we can take the total asset values, but there are intagible ideas like intellectual property and human resource that often are excluded, yet they are due to being the very core of capacity for efficient process and the measure of wealth that is viewed culturally essential.

For instance a fat woman costs more to produce usually than a thin woman - yet depending on the culture a fat or thin women may hold more value. Likewise in some area a truck is favoured while in others a car. Some favour location over the size of an estate. Some people like fish eggs while others prefer chicken.

In this essence if happiness of a society is a measure of wealth then really happiness is the only measure of growth in the economy.

Edited September 7, 2011 by William Ashley

[Bonam]

Well the problem is thats the only place where the money exists to tax.

Remember.. when the government is really taxing "people" its taxing the economy. Taxing the incomes of individuals is simply the method of doing it.

Taxing income and plundering assets are very different things. While the government now has solidly established for itself the right to tax your income, I'd rather it not also gain the right to randomly confiscate your house, boat, car, stock portfolio, or other asset as a form of "tax".

[Bob]

The OP is just more of the same worthless liberal arts pink commie "intellectual" tripe that's been around since at least the 70s. It's funny listening to liberal arts students whine about "the earth" when the very reason they're in liberal arts is because they couldn't get a decent grade in science or math when in high school.

Without even knowing it, the OP is trying to justify mass unemployment and poverty in the name of "the environment".

[jacee]

World population is still increasing - so the idea of an expanding economy is more or less like this

portion of population with "essential demands"

portion of population with "luxury demands"

Essential demands will always increase (although if excess is prior used then it wont so a fat america going to a thin america may see a decrease in essentials this can create less agregate demand in areas such as medical or transport costs but it leads to a healthier and more efficient america - to stem the economic loss due to declined demand you need to increase the population) and are dependent on increased production which may require access to more resources to fullfill that need.

Luxury is variable.

There should be increased efficiency due to technology - however this can be offset by resource depletion in non sustainable cycles.

As an economy ages, the more sustainability needs to be integrated in the economic cycle.

The luxury factor is what often creates context of wealth.

IN reality the economy is growing if there is a larger population that is healthy and resources are intact to continue supporting them, or supporting a larger population.

The measure of economic success cannot rely on monetary success alone but must be based on the sustainability of a the society and how protected that society is from failure. Valuation is a very cultural idea.

However we can take the total asset values, but there are intagible ideas like intellectual property and human resource that often are excluded, yet they are due to being the very core of capacity for efficient process and the measure of wealth that is viewed culturally essential.

For instance a fat woman costs more to produce usually than a thin woman - yet depending on the culture a fat or thin women may hold more value. Likewise in some area a truck is favoured while in others a car. Some favour location over the size of an estate. Some people like fish eggs while others prefer chicken.

In this essence if happiness of a society is a measure of wealth then really happiness is the only measure of growth in the economy.

Interesting because my understanding of research on the relationship between happiness and wealth is that lower and middle income people express more happiness than upper income people. Those with more experience in surviv al and making do are more inclined to recognize and count their blessings , while those with huge income and assets are driven by constant fear and anxiety of losing them. Edited September 7, 2011 by jacee

[Bob]

Interesting because my understanding of research on the relationship between happiness and wealth is that lower and middle income people express more happiness that upper income people. Those with more experience in survival and making do are more inclined to recognize and count their blessings , while those with huge income and assets are driven by constant fear and anxiety of losing them.

Yes, who can argue with the ideologically-informed "experiences" of a 20-year-old "conflict resolution" major?

[jacee]

Sure it is - if we can get off the debt fuelled binge we are on now.

Which is created by the financial sector to benefit themselves and mega investors - ie, the superrich - to suck more money into their pockets and out of the fast disappearing middle class.

Puleeeez ... put the artificially created debt-bogeyman to rest. It is and always was a scam. Next thing the financiers will be creating another world war to contain the 'masses' and shovel even more money into the offshore-bound trunks of the megarich. Can't the money shovellers raise their heads for a moment and see that they are just the house slaves?

[Wild Bill]

I disagree with the premise that we are soon to be limited by fundamental resource shortfall. We have barely begun to tap the available resources.

Here's the link:

http://www.geekologie.com/2011/08/china-lets-trap-an-asteroid-in-earths-or.php

"China is considering temporarily capturing an asteroid in earth's orbit and then mining it for all it's valuable metals."

"There's speculation that mining an asteroid a mile-wide could be worth something to the tune of 25-trillion dollars."

This article is about China beginning a plan to mine asteroids for their valuables. I posted about this some time ago and most replies blew the idea off as some sort of Buck Rogers stuff, even though the idea is decades old in both the popular and professional scientific community.

Sadly, I've become convinced these past 10-15 years that the West has lost its drive to develop space capabilities and that Space belonged to other countries, like China or even India. Articles like this would seem to confirm it, especially after Obama appears to have deliberately taken America out of the playing field.

$25 TRILLION DOLLARS! With that kind of money from just ONE asteroid China will not only hold America's entire debt, it will be able to pave the entire country over for "brownfield re-development"!

Running out of resources indeed! What ignorance! Just pull your eyes away from your shoes and look UP once in a while!

[Wild Bill]

It's funny listening to liberal arts students whine about "the earth" when the very reason they're in liberal arts is because they couldn't get a decent grade in science or math when in high school.

:lol:

ROTFLMAO! ZING! Dead on the mark! Hell, most of them were lucky to get a decent math mark in GRADE school and only passed science because at that level its all about sprouting bean seeds in jars of tissue paper!

[CPCFTW]

Which is created by the financial sector to benefit themselves and mega investors - ie, the superrich - to suck more money into their pockets and out of the fast disappearing middle class.

Puleeeez ... put the artificially created debt-bogeyman to rest. It is and always was a scam. Next thing the financiers will be creating another world war to contain the 'masses' and shovel even more money into the offshore-bound trunks of the megarich. Can't the money shovellers raise their heads for a moment and see that they are just the house slaves?

Do you have any idea what you're talking about or are you just going to spout off BS? Government debt is issued by governments, not the financial sector. The debt is used to pay for all the liberal entitlements you want to protect.

[Bonam]

Here's the link:

http://www.geekologie.com/2011/08/china-lets-trap-an-asteroid-in-earths-or.php

"China is considering temporarily capturing an asteroid in earth's orbit and then mining it for all it's valuable metals."

"There's speculation that mining an asteroid a mile-wide could be worth something to the tune of 25-trillion dollars."

This article is about China beginning a plan to mine asteroids for their valuables. I posted about this some time ago and most replies blew the idea off as some sort of Buck Rogers stuff, even though the idea is decades old in both the popular and professional scientific community.

Sadly, I've become convinced these past 10-15 years that the West has lost its drive to develop space capabilities and that Space belonged to other countries, like China or even India. Articles like this would seem to confirm it, especially after Obama appears to have deliberately taken America out of the playing field.

$25 TRILLION DOLLARS! With that kind of money from just ONE asteroid China will not only hold America's entire debt, it will be able to pave the entire country over for "brownfield re-development"!

Running out of resources indeed! What ignorance! Just pull your eyes away from your shoes and look UP once in a while!

Definitely. While there are obviously technological challenges in exploiting extraterrestrial resources, there are huge potential rewards as well. But even just looking at resources right here on Earth, we've barely started tapping them. For example, the world's entire energy consumption represents only about 0.01% of the energy reaching the Earth from the Sun. Another example: the hydrogen in the Earth's oceans can provide enough fusion energy to sustain current energy usage levels for 29 quadrillion years.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Definitely. While there are obviously technological challenges in exploiting extraterrestrial resources, there are huge potential rewards as well. But even just looking at resources right here on Earth, we've barely started tapping them. For example, the world's entire energy consumption represents only about 0.01% of the energy reaching the Earth from the Sun. Another example: the hydrogen in the Earth's oceans can provide enough fusion energy to sustain current energy usage levels for 29 quadrillion years.

Why bother destroying a resource? Free hydrogen can be screened out of solar wind, known fact. Not easy, but actually doable. The real quarry here is "FUSION", that is where the big bucks are. In addition, room temperature superconductors are the holy grail of those who utilize a delivered electrical power source. Not just power, but a way of delivering it without loss in the transmission, that is the key.

In my view the oceans should be tapped for tidal power in addition to wind power.

[Wild Bill]

Definitely. While there are obviously technological challenges in exploiting extraterrestrial resources, there are huge potential rewards as well. But even just looking at resources right here on Earth, we've barely started tapping them. For example, the world's entire energy consumption represents only about 0.01% of the energy reaching the Earth from the Sun. Another example: the hydrogen in the Earth's oceans can provide enough fusion energy to sustain current energy usage levels for 29 quadrillion years.

Indeed! It's amazing how many people hold to the "fixed pie" illusion, that there is only so much wealth and only the resources we know about today. At any point in Man's History that claim could and has been made, usually as a justification for wresting wealth from someone else. I watched a documentary a few days ago about the wars between England and the Dutch in the 1600's, largely begun because England believed that the Dutch had more than their share of the New World trade and therefore England had no choice but to take it from them. They had no concept of what trade with the New World would become as it just grew and grew and grew!

The resources in Space are virtually infinite, both for energy and for materials. Looks like the Chinese have realized that. Meanwhile Obama is still orating about Mom, Apple Pie and the America he'd LIKE to see, with never one world about HOW he would achieve it! I listened to his speech the other day and I was just amazed that anyone could listen to that malarkey! Not a single blessed real idea of how to make things better, just a long list of high-falutin' wishes!

If I'm still here when they come along, I'm going to encourage my kids to learn Mandarin.

[maple_leafs182]

Let's face it, your problem is you seem to think the rich took your wealth rather than earning theirs. Most of the wealth in the Western world was earned. If you want to steal it, then just come out and say it rather than playing the victim.

The wealth of the middle and lower classes is being redistributed to the rich threw inflation. Inflation is the hidden tax on the people that nobody seems to talk about.

[jacee]

Do you have any idea what you're talking about or are you just going to spout off BS? Government debt is issued by governments, not the financial sector. The debt is used to pay for all the liberal entitlements you want to protect.

Atta boy! Good slave! Here's a doggie treat. Edited September 7, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

:lol:

ROTFLMAO! ZING! Dead on the mark! Hell, most of them were lucky to get a decent math mark in GRADE school and only passed science because at that level its all about sprouting bean seeds in jars of tissue paper!

Beats counting beans with you mouth on the butt of the master! Edited September 8, 2011 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

Really ? Did not know that. Please give me a cite as I will use this information in future.

Here ya go...everything you would ever want to know about America's beloved interstate highway system and how it was funded. We just love it to death....and so do Canadians for lots of reasons.

[Michael Hardner]

The OP is just more of the same worthless liberal arts pink commie "intellectual" tripe that's been around since at least the 70s. It's funny listening to liberal arts students whine about "the earth" when the very reason they're in liberal arts is because they couldn't get a decent grade in science or math when in high school.

Without even knowing it, the OP is trying to justify mass unemployment and poverty in the name of "the environment".

Your post doesn't do much, other than show your bigotry against people with arts degrees. It's a strange take on things to say the least.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, who can argue with the ideologically-informed "experiences" of a 20-year-old "conflict resolution" major?

This is called 'arguing from authority'... which isn't much better than insults when it comes down to it.

If you have a good argument, you should be able to make it without trotting out your or your opponents' credentials.

[bush_cheney2004]

Beats counting beans with you mouth on the dick of the master!

I think we have a winner folks...won't be long now.

[Michael Hardner]

:lol:

ROTFLMAO! ZING! Dead on the mark! Hell, most of them were lucky to get a decent math mark in GRADE school and only passed science because at that level its all about sprouting bean seeds in jars of tissue paper!

Let's get out our high school and university marks then, and kick everybody off the board who didn't get at least an A- in trigonometry.

Worst of all... there was a real artsy president elected in 1980 with a Bachelor of Arts, who was an actual ACTOR in Hollyweird ! They should have sent him back to Russia when he graduated...