Why Toronto needs MORE libraries

Boges · July 27, 2011

All the libraries are packed and well used and shouldn't be closed. There you go.

Here are some more people saying the same sort of thing:

Constituents to Ford: Lose our library and lose our votes

Apparently he is incorrect.

.

Wow what a biased story. And that one stat doesn't really say much. Again Ford isn't saying he would close every library. Only a few to make the service more efficient. How does the library usage compare to say 15 years ago when internet didn't have the effect it does now.

You suspect stuff coming from the Ford's is a lie but when it comes from the Star it's totally legit? PLEASE!

And it seems Libraries aren't this sanctuary for reading as much as a free internet cafe. Sort of flies in the face of all those people who say anyone who don't think all of them are sacrosanct is a dummy.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Boges

August1991 · July 27, 2011

Doug Ford stepped into it again. And as usual, not only did he produced what he stepped in, but he stepped in it on his own front stoop.
If there was ever a reason for more libraries, more Canadian cultural exposure and events and more emphasis on education, Doug Ford is the poster boy.

Doug Ford blasts Margaret Atwood over libraries

You see, this fits well with what we are starting to see from the "Ford Nation." You can participate, just keep your mouth shut. And that sort of politics has a lot of followers, especially in an apathetic voting world, in an apathetic City like Toronto.

I read of Margaret Atwood's rant on the Internet, and she apparently "published" it on twitter.

Why didn't she post a notice in her local library?

----

Doug Ford is right, and Peggy Atwood is wrong. In 100 years, no one will remember who Atwood was, and she will have changed nothing. (Who today remembers Arnold Bennett?) But people like Doug Ford change the world.

Such is life.

really don't have a use for a Library at this stage in my life. If I want to a book I can buy one and I have access to internet in my home. Last time I used one was when I was in school finding source material for projects.

Precisely. Edited July 27, 2011 by August1991

Shwa · July 27, 2011

I read of Margaret Atwood's rant on the Internet, and she apparently "published" it on twitter.

Why didn't she post a notice in her local library?

----

Doug Ford is right, and Peggy Atwood is wrong. In 100 years, no one will remember who Atwood was, and she will have changed nothing. (Who today remembers Arnold Bennett?) But people like Doug Ford change the world.

Such is life.

Precisely.

So you don't know who Margaret Atwood is either?

bloodyminded · July 27, 2011

Doug Ford is right, and Peggy Atwood is wrong. In 100 years, no one will remember who Atwood was, and she will have changed nothing. (Who today remembers Arnold Bennett?) But people like Doug Ford change the world.

Such is life.

.

She's held a palce of esteem in the literary canon for forty years now...a centure doesn't seem a terrible stretch.

Still, at least it's possible, sure; unlike your similar pronouncement about Shakespeare.

And no...the number of Canadian City Mayors (even Toronto ones) who are broadly remembered (outside of fringe political enthusiasts) are a rare bird indeed.

Edited July 27, 2011 by bloodyminded

Shwa · July 27, 2011

Wow what a biased story. And that one stat doesn't really say much. Again Ford isn't saying he would close every library. Only a few to make the service more efficient. How does the library usage compare to say 15 years ago when internet didn't have the effect it does now.

Why not close all but one of the branches and make it super efficient? Ok, that is ridiculous. Maybe close all but five.

You suspect stuff coming from the Ford's is a lie but when it comes from the Star it's totally legit? PLEASE!

Well in their defence, they are Toronto's Canada's most widely read newspaper. But no, people usually buy the Star for the Sunshine Girl.

And it seems Libraries aren't this sanctuary for reading as much as a free internet cafe. Sort of flies in the face of all those people who say anyone who don't think all of them are sacrosanct is a dummy.

Of course for someone who doesnt have any use for libraries and hasn't likely visited one in quite some time - let alone any in Toronto - your qualifed and wholly unbiased opinion is far more valuable than anything the Toronto Star could come up. :lol:

Boges · July 27, 2011

Why not close all but one of the branches and make it super efficient? Ok, that is ridiculous. Maybe close all but five.

Well in their defence, they are Toronto's Canada's most widely read newspaper. But no, people usually buy the Star for the Sunshine Girl.

Of course for someone who doesnt have any use for libraries and hasn't likely visited one in quite some time - let alone any in Toronto - your qualifed and wholly unbiased opinion is far more valuable than anything the Toronto Star could come up.

You're like Black Dog, you require stats when your position is challenged yet provide very little to defend your position.

The claim is that "SOME" cuts in Library services might be needed to fill the budget hole.

The response isn't to ask if those cuts could be endured without greatly reducing the average Toronto resident's access to free internet and books. BUT to call anyone who would even consider cutting anything related to Library services an anti intellectual idiot.

It's elitism at it's worst.

I can't prove that the cuts ARE needed, but you also can't prove to me that they AREN'T.

The only retorts on this issue are because he took shots at Margaret Atwood, pronounced Library wrong and said something regarding Tim Horton's.

What about calling Margaret Atwood anti intellectual for condemning the idea of Sun News.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Boges

guyser · July 27, 2011

Doug Ford is right, and Peggy Atwood is wrong. In 100 years, no one will remember who Atwood was, and she will have changed nothing. (Who today remembers Arnold Bennett?) But people like Doug Ford change the world.Such is life.

Precisely.

Don't think I have ever said this to a respected poster here.....but you have got to be f'in kidding me !

Um, in 10 years, no one will know who Doug Ford is, Atwood will still be reknowned.

Edited July 27, 2011 by guyser

Jack Weber · July 27, 2011

Don't think I have ever said this to a respected poster here.....but you have got to be f'in kidding me !

Um, in 10 years, no one will know who Doug Ford is, Atwood will still be reknowned.

I disagree..

They will remember him...

As the guy who tried to reprimand Atwood by using the word "libary"....

I wonder if he says "punkin" and pisgetti"?

Shwa · July 27, 2011

You're like Black Dog, you require stats when your position is challenged yet provide very little to defend your position.

In this particular discussion, it is of no matter is it? You have admitted you already have no clue and, furthermore, don't know how to get a clue. Right Boges, depending on who you ask?

But cuts are OK anyways, if what the Ford Nation is saying is true.

I am just taking counterpoint and offering you back the same sort of reasoning. I did offer a couple of stories from the Star, but apparently such grossly biased reports are to be discredited even IF they contain a little bit of a clue.

The claim is that "SOME" cuts in Library services might be needed to fill the budget hole.

You admitted that if "...all these Libraries are packed and being well used I guess that would be a defense against closing them."

So I did say these Libraries are packed and being well used as a defence, even offering the story from the Star as an illustration of that - even if, in a small way. But again, the story was discredited as anything, which is ironic seeing that you admitted to not having a clue in the first place and not knowing how to go about in getting one, you would want to discredit anything. If you were generally interested in a productive discussion on the issue. But you are not and, really, neither am I so there you go.

The response isn't to ask if those cuts could be endured without greatly reducing the average Toronto resident's access to free internet and books. BUT to call anyone who would even consider cutting anything related to Library services an anti intellectual idiot.

Show me - quote it directly - anywhere in this thread where I have called "anyone who would even consider cutting anything related to Library services an anti intellectual idiot." I'll bet you can't. In fact, I'll bet you are the one that keeps bringing this up. Sort of like if you bring it up enough, someone will believe you.

But I don't. So you go right ahead and find that damned quote of mine. I'll wait. I'll remind you from time to time if you like. :lol:

It's elitism at it's worst.

Naw, it's Boges-ism at it's best.

I can't prove that the cuts ARE needed, but you also can't prove to me that they AREN'T.

I am not trying to prove that cuts AREN'T needed. I don't need to.

You're only questioning the cuts because the mayors brother took a shot at Margaret Atwood, pronounced Library wrong and said something regarding Tim Horton's.

I am only questioning cuts because YOU are.

What about calling Margaret Atwood anti intellectual for condemning the idea of Sun News.

No, that is more of an astute observation.

Jack Weber · July 27, 2011

most libraries are second homes for homeless people and international students.

It's not needed in the upper-middle class neighborhoods, not with the electronic world

taking over. The Yorkville branch is usless, it's only five minutes away from

the big reference library at yonge/bloor... they should get rid of the Yorkville library

the stench from the homeless people in there, is enough to make you puke.

Speaking of elitism....

Boges · July 27, 2011

Shwa you really didn't prove that the Libraries are being well used.

You only cited a Star article that quoted the the Library service that said check outs are up 15% over last year in June. That doesn't mean much when this debate is about individual libraries.

But then Slate give an example of a Library that could probably be closed because it's located near a bigger one. I suspect that's not the only example of this.

Shwa · July 27, 2011

Shwa you really didn't prove that the Libraries are being well used.
You only cited a Star article that quoted the the Library service that said check outs are up 15% over last year in June. That doesn't mean much when this debate is about individual libraries.

For a guy who said something about libraries and learning to read, let me cite the Star article in a fashion that will make sense to you:

“Tell her to go run in the next election and get democratically elected,” the Etobicoke councillor said, adding as an example that it “wouldn't bother” his constituents if the Northern Elms library branch at Kipling Ave. and Rexdale Blvd. were closed.
“Why do we need another little library in the middle of nowhere that no one uses?” he said.

Fadumo Elmi had a message for Doug Ford Tuesday night. “I gave him my vote,” she said sternly outside Northern Elms.

“If he closes the library, I want back my vote.”

If Ford's comments raised eyebrows at City Hall, they raised blood pressure among patrons of this supposedly disposable library.

Statistics from the Toronto Public Library show that usage is rising at the branch, with 15 per cent more checkouts in June 2011 compared to last year.

Get it? You asked, I gave you an example of two things: Doug Ford bullshitting and a example of libray use increasing at a branch.

But then Slate give an example of a Library that could probably be closed because it's located near a bigger one. I suspect that's not the only example of this.

I believe you suspect many things.

The_Squid · July 27, 2011

It's rather sad that some Canadians don't even know the name Margaret Atwood, let alone have read a book by her. I reccomend the book "Oryx and Crake". I liked it a lot. And of course "The Handmaid's Tale" is a chilling look at the future.

She is a Companion of the Order of Canada, won the Governor General's Award twice, won the Booker Prize in 2000, among a whole slew of other awards. She has been bestowed honourary degrees by 17 universities, including Harvard.

I think a few people have heard of Ms. Atwood, and her books will be read for a long time to come. Maybe centuries.

She is worthy of a listen on matters of literature and literacy, even if it is only a rebuttal-tweet to the illiterate idiots we call Toronto politicians.

cybercoma · July 28, 2011

What I find most insidious about these comments is that Margaret Atwood is a citizen, possibly a Toronto constituent (I'm not certain, but it doesn't matter). The implication in Ford's remarks is that constituents have absolutely no say in government policy outside of casting a ballot in an election. They seem to suggest that they have free-reign, without answering to the public, for their entire term. Everyone on all sides of the political spectrum ought to be utterly disgusted with this frightening and dangerous notion.

Shwa · July 28, 2011

Ford ally, Stintz, won't support library closures

A key ally of Mayor Rob Ford is breaking ranks and saying his administration should take library closures off the table.
Councillor Karen Stintz, the TTC chair, also called on Ford to allay public concerns over consultant KPMG's host of suggested cuts by telling Torontonians where exactly his administration is "going."

Which is a fair request. Instead of Doug Ford's stream of "off-the-cuff" remarks, which makes him out to be somewhat daft, Mayor Ford needs to muzzle his brother and lay some cards on the table. Let people participate. Wasn't that what the 'Ford Nation' was supposed to be about?

Meanwhile, Doug Ford retreated Wednesday from his public spat with celebrated author Margaret Atwood over her Twitter posts urging people to fight any library cuts.

Likely Doug was taken out in the back yard by his brother and told to smarten up and get in line.

treehugger · July 28, 2011

Perhaps because they are debt up to their eyeballs depending on who you ask.

Doug Ford says he's not against libraries, he just wants to close a few. Perish the thought.

It came out today that a few Libraries in Toronto make 6 figures. Please tell me going SHHHH!!!! to rowdy kids and updating the dewey decimal system isn't worth 6 figures?

That's librarians that make six figures and some of them were up to over 200,000$ and they certainly don't deserve to burden the taxpayers back with that. Library people are union, who could have guessed that one!

Edited July 28, 2011 by treehugger

treehugger · July 28, 2011

Depending on who you ask. Is that like there are more libraries than Tim Hortons in Etobicoke "depending on who you ask?"

There's a map in the national post where all of the libraries are, and some place in there is three libraries. Most of the other libraries seem to ba a block apart.That's too many libraries. Do you know the usage of each library? if they are underused they should go. you seem to know all of the facts.

treehugger · July 28, 2011

All the libraries are packed and well used and shouldn't be closed. There you go.

Here are some more people saying the same sort of thing:

Constituents to Ford: Lose our library and lose our votes

Apparently he is incorrect.

.

ALL the libraries are NOT packed, I have been in some that only have one other person in it.There are many little hole -in -the wall libraries in the downtown area that need to close their doors.

The MAIN concern about this was the money that is paid out to the non deserving librarians who receive $137.38 million dollars a year plus numerous extra privileges when the total revenue allowed is $183,598,142 as of 2010. It rises yearly.

treehugger · July 28, 2011

Ford ally, Stintz, won't support library closures

Which is a fair request. Instead of Doug Ford's stream of "off-the-cuff" remarks, which makes him out to be somewhat daft, Mayor Ford needs to muzzle his brother and lay some cards on the table. Let people participate. Wasn't that what the 'Ford Nation' was supposed to be about?

Likely Doug was taken out in the back yard by his brother and told to smarten up and get in line.

WHO CARES one fig about Margaret Attwood and what she has to say, She is only one person, How often does she go to libraries? Never?

Her books are there and in schools where they have a teacher to explain what the hell she is talking about in her books.

Sir Bandelot · July 28, 2011

Evidently the guy Ford has a big ego problem, as is often the case for people who seek positions of power. It's shown in his comment that she should get elected if she wants to have any say in the matter. In other words, "I'm in charge here, so I'm the one who decides".

In this democratic society I say, whoever the people elect, they deserve everything they get.

bloodyminded · July 28, 2011

WHO CARES one fig about Margaret Attwood and what she has to say, She is only one person,

????

But she is a citizen...so by your logic (mind: yours, not mine) your own remarks on this matter should be mocked and/or ignored, as you are "only one person," and so it doesn't matter what you have to say.

Unless you're going to argue that agreeing with the leaders is automatically better than disagreeing with them. Perhaps that's your view, I can't make it out.

The_Squid · July 28, 2011

Librarians that make $200,000???? hmmm.... show me the money....

Shwa · July 28, 2011

There's a map in the national post where all of the libraries are, and some place in there is three libraries. Most of the other libraries seem to ba a block apart.That's too many libraries. Do you know the usage of each library? if they are underused they should go. you seem to know all of the facts.

No, I don't know all the facts. But then neither do you since the libraries "seem" to be a block apart and "if" they are underused...

So we are on equal footing in a way. So tell me, what does an "underused" library look like? Is there a patron-per-hour metric that you know about?

Cause there "seems" to be lots of people complaining "if" their library is targeted for closure.

Shwa · July 28, 2011

ALL the libraries are NOT packed, I have been in some that only have one other person in it.There are many little hole -in -the wall libraries in the downtown area that need to close their doors.

I was responding to Boges concern that no one had used usage as a defence for closing the libraries. So I gave him the defence. If there are "many little hole -in -the wall libraries" one or two people could make it seem packed. Just sayin.

The MAIN concern about this was the money that is paid out to the non deserving librarians who receive $137.38 million dollars a year plus numerous extra privileges when the total revenue allowed is $183,598,142 as of 2010. It rises yearly.

So it isn't REALLY about closing libraries, it is about librarian's salaries. And they are in unions, etc. I see. And they are "non deserving librarians" to boot. Why? Don't they know the dewey decimal system and how to search the card catalogue?

Shwa · July 28, 2011

WHO CARES one fig about Margaret Attwood Doug Ford and what she he has to say, She he is only one person, How often does she he go to libraries? Never?

I fooled around with some editing and stuff and made a more interesting and likely more truthful paragraph for you.

Her books are there and in schools where they have a teacher to explain what the hell she is talking about in her books.

How do you know her "books are there?" Maybe in most of the libraries they aren't and for someone to access a copy they have to use inter-library loan or some other internal TPL system.

Handmaid's Tale is telling. I think you would identify with some of the characters.