Why Toronto needs MORE libraries

[Shwa]

Doug Ford stepped into it again. And as usual, not only did he produced what he stepped in, but he stepped in it on his own front stoop.

If there was ever a reason for more libraries, more Canadian cultural exposure and events and more emphasis on education, Doug Ford is the poster boy.

Doug Ford blasts Margaret Atwood over libraries

Councillor Doug Ford has fired back at world-renowned author Margaret Atwood for her criticism of suggested library cuts, telling reporters: “I don’t even know her. If she walked by me, I wouldn’t have a clue who she is.”

Ford also said that the literary icon and activist — who took him to task on Twitter for saying, erroneously, that his Etobicoke ward has more libraries than Tim Hortons — should get herself elected to office or pipe down.

“Well good luck to Margaret Atwood. I don’t even know her. If she walked by me, I wouldn’t have a clue who she is,” said the councillor and advisor to his brother, Mayor Rob Ford, after a committee meeting on proposed cuts.

You see, this fits well with what we are starting to see from the "Ford Nation." You can participate, just keep your mouth shut. And that sort of politics has a lot of followers, especially in an apathetic voting world, in an apathetic City like Toronto.

There's always duct tape if self-control won't work.

“She’s not down here, she’s not dealing with the problem. Tell her to go run in the next election and get democratically elected. And we’d be more than happy to sit down and listen to Margaret Atwood.”

Why wait for an election to listen to Margaret Atwood, one of Canada's literary icons? Wouldn't it be better to engage her and see what her ideas are, to see if she has ideas that will improve the policy, to get her views since she likely has a better understanding of Canadian culture and how libraries - and books - fit in?

Nah, not with the Ford Nation. They have a majority. The citizens of Toronto elected them. They can do whatever they want in their petty kingdom.

Except engage Margaret Atwood. Because she scares them.

[Jack Weber]

I'm not a huge fan of Margaret Atwood,however,...

Does it really come as a shock that anyone in the Ford family is'nt exactly well read?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Jack Weber

[CANADIEN]

I'm not a huge fan of Margaret Atwood,however,...

Does it really come as a shock that anyone in the Ford family is'nt exactly well read?

Margaret Atwood is a Torontonian.. err I mean a taxpayer. Which gives her the right to speak on issues of public interest. who counsillor Ford think he is for claiming that one has to be elected to express an opinion.

Now, I think a lot of people would not recognize Ms. Atwood on the street. Most of us would still have the common sense not to claim that they don't know who she is. Another opportunity to put one's foot in own mouth, and Ford could not miss it.

[guyser]

Does it really come as a shock that anyone in the Ford family is'nt exactly well read fed ?

I just had to.

Edited July 27, 2011 by guyser

[Boges]

You know this story is total bullshit. Toronto has more Libraries per capital then most large cities in the world. It actually has more than New York total.

To imply that anyone that says perhaps Toronto could close a few branches and streamline the service is immediately labeled an anti-intellectual luddite. It's ridiculous!

People on the radio were going after Doug Ford for not pronouncing the word right.

People in Toronto are becoming exceedingly petty about these cost cutting issues.

[Boges]

BTW it's surprising that Margaret Atwood is so eager to keep Libraries considering if you're reading her book at a Library that means you aren't buying it.

[Michael Hardner]

People in Toronto are becoming exceedingly petty about these cost cutting issues.

I believe that that is their best defense. You can see how groups rally against certain changes (tax cuts, for example) and won't give an inch. It succeeds in many cases.

[Boges]

I believe that that is their best defense. You can see how groups rally against certain changes (tax cuts, for example) and won't give an inch. It succeeds in many cases.

The only the defense I've heard against possibly closing a few underused libraries is that anyone who thinks a few should be closed is a big dummy that hates books.

I suspect most people going into Libraries these days are doing so to use the free internet provided and not to "borrow" a new or old book.

BTW what's the difference between going to a Library and taking out a book and downloading it online?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Boges

[Shwa]

You know this story is total bullshit.

Really? Let's examine some Grade A bullshit and see if you can spot the bullshitter:

Doughnuts vs books? In Ford's Etobicoke, it’s 3-1

Councillor Doug Ford’s provocative statement that there are more library branches than Tim Hortons in his area has prompted people to check his numbers.

Turns out the library is not quite as ubiquitous as Ford suggested in a recent comment in a radio interview. According to library union president Maureen O’Reilly, Etobicoke has 13 library branches and 39 Tim Hortons. Three library branches are in areas Ford represents, Ward 2, Etobicoke North, while the Tim Hortons website shows seven of their shops in the ward.

Who's bullshitting now?

Toronto has more Libraries per capital then most large cities in the world.

But not in Canada right?

Asked to comment, the library provided some comparisons. Toronto has one library for every 28,120 citizens, fewer than Hamilton (one branch per 21,629); Ottawa (27,527); and Vancouver (27,976). But Toronto does better than Mississauga (40,555); Montreal (36,833) and Calgary (61,346).

It actually has more than New York total.

I wonder if there is a reason for that?

Toronto Public Library

Toronto Public Library (TPL; French: Bibliothèque publique de Toronto) is a public library system based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. It operates the largest such system in the world. With an estimated 17.5 million visitors annually, it is also the busiest public library system in the world. Established as the library of the Mechanics' Institute in 1830, the Toronto Public Library now consists of 99 branch libraries and has over 11 million items in its collection.

Hmmmm.... interesting indeed.

To imply that anyone that says perhaps Toronto could close a few branches and streamline the service is immediately labeled an anti-intellectual luddite. It's ridiculous!

No, the implication is that Doug Ford is an anti-intellectual luddite. If you choose to associate with that role, you are free to do so. In the meantime, tell us why Toronto should not have the largest library system in the world, or why the busiest public library system in the world needs to be less busy. Tim Hortons should be so lucky.

People on the radio were going after Doug Ford for not pronouncing the word right.

Yeah, he said "libary."

People in Toronto are becoming exceedingly petty about these cost cutting issues.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. These so-called "people in Toronto" were the ones that elected Ford Nation, are you accusing the Ford Nation of being petty towards the Ford Nation?

Eh, it was invetible I suppose, you know, people becoming "exceedingly petty" over these cost cutting "issues." I mean, after all, what do "people" have to do with anything? Stupid petty people! :angry:

[bloodyminded]

BTW it's surprising that Margaret Atwood is so eager to keep Libraries considering if you're reading her book at a Library that means you aren't buying it.

Speaks well of her, I should say.

[Shwa]

BTW it's surprising that Margaret Atwood is so eager to keep Libraries considering if you're reading her book at a Library that means you aren't buying it.

Yeah, I mean, why would Margaret Atwood care about literacy? I mean, the illiterate can't read her books anyways.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Shwa

[Boges]

Tell us why Toronto should not have the largest library system in the world, or why the busiest public library system in the world needs to be less busy. Tim Hortons should be so lucky.

Perhaps because they are debt up to their eyeballs depending on who you ask.

Doug Ford says he's not against libraries, he just wants to close a few. Perish the thought.

It came out today that a few Libraries in Toronto make 6 figures. Please tell me going SHHHH!!!! to rowdy kids and updating the dewey decimal system isn't worth 6 figures?

[bloodyminded]

You got your idea of what a Librarian is from the Archie comics, I see.

[Boges]

Yeah, I mean, why would Margaret Atwood care about literacy? I mean, the illiterate can't read her books anyways.

So Librarians teach people to read now? I thought that service was provided at schools.

Actually if you can't read there are several government run services that teach people to read for free.

[Boges]

You got your idea of what a Librarian is from the Archie comics, I see.

I guess.

I really don't have a use for a Library at this stage in my life. If I want to a book I can buy one and I have access to internet in my home. Last time I used one was when I was in school finding source material for projects.

The Librarian surely didn't help me with the project, that would have been cheating anyway.

But tell me, what do they do that warrants 6-figures?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Boges

[Shwa]

Perhaps because they are debt up to their eyeballs depending on who you ask.

Doug Ford says he's not against libraries, he just wants to close a few. Perish the thought.

It came out today that a few Libraries in Toronto make 6 figures. Please tell me going SHHHH!!!! to rowdy kids and updating the dewey decimal system isn't worth 6 figures?

Depending on who you ask. Is that like there are more libraries than Tim Hortons in Etobicoke "depending on who you ask?"

[Shwa]

So Librarians teach people to read now? I thought that service was provided at schools.

Actually if you can't read there are several government run services that teach people to read for free.

You see? There is your problem right there. If you spend a little more time in a library - practically any public library - you would come to understand "literacy" means a titch more than learning to read.

Plus, once people learn to read, what other free services have the same sort of choice as the Toronto Public Library system?

You could say "the internet" but you would have to go to a public library to access it for free.

[Boges]

Depending on who you ask. Is that like there are more libraries than Tim Hortons in Etobicoke "depending on who you ask?"

Well you ask the Ford's Toronto a quarter billion in the hole. Apparently some councillors dispute that. I don't have access to the books so I have no idea.

But if they are in the whole by as much as the Ford's say. I think closing under performing libraries is probably a good idea.

From what I hear there are ares of Toronto where you have one at every block. I don't live in Toronto so I can't comment on that. But again if it's true that perhaps cuts can be made.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Boges

[Shwa]

Well you ask the Ford's Toronto a quarter billion in the hole. Apparently some councillors dispute that. I don't have access to the books so I have no idea.

But "Ford's Toronto" said it, so it must be truer, right? The libraries-in-Etobicoke comment aside I mean.

But if they are in the whole by as much as the Ford's say. I think closing under performing libraries is probably a good idea.

It only makes sense. If I were inclined to make up facts, I would also agree to support them. You know, for integrity's sake.

From what I hear there are ares of Toronto where you have one at every block. I don't live in Toronto so I can't comment on that. But again if it's true that perhaps cuts can be made.

Libraries on every block? No, you are thinking of Tim Hortons too.

[Boges]

But "Ford's Toronto" said it, so it must be truer, right? The libraries-in-Etobicoke comment aside I mean.

It only makes sense. If I were inclined to make up facts, I would also agree to support them. You know, for integrity's sake.

Libraries on every block? No, you are thinking of Tim Hortons too.

Well how many Libraries does a city or town really need?

I think the Tim Hortons remark was meant more as an off the cuff remark. Everyone knows there are Tim Horton's everywhere you can sort of grasp the issue of there possibly being too many if you make that comparison. I'm sure he wasn't willfully lying to make a point.

[Michael Hardner]

The only the defense I've heard against possibly closing a few underused libraries is that anyone who thinks a few should be closed is a big dummy that hates books.

And it works. The emotional defense has been proven to work over reason in countless examples: immigration, war, and the ongoing debate over "hot buttons - pro or con ?". That last one really gets my blood boiling.

[Shwa]

Well how many Libraries does a city or town really need?

I dunno. You might want to find out from the people that planned the growth of the library system in the first place, since they had a reasonable definition based, likely, on study and research. What do you think?

I think the Tim Hortons remark was meant more as an off the cuff remark. Everyone knows there are Tim Horton's everywhere you can sort of grasp the issue of there possibly being too many if you make that comparison. I'm sure he wasn't willfully lying to make a point.

Well how many Tim Hortons does a city or town really need?

[Boges]

I dunno. You might want to find out from the people that planned the growth of the library system in the first place, since they had a reasonable definition based, likely, on study and research. What do you think?

Well how many Tim Hortons does a city or town really need?

Well Tim Horton's puts stores where they believe there's a need. I've heard They bought land in North Halton and don't plan to build anything there for years because they believe there will be a demand in the future.

If that demand doesn't materialize the store is closed.

I know there are two Timmy's and a Timmy's in an ESSO within walking distance from my house and all are well used.

If all these Libraries are packed and being well used I guess that would be a defense against closing them. So far I have not seen that defense being used however.

[Boges]

I also suspect the demand for these libraries when they were built and now are very different.

Certainly the demand for books stores are.

[Shwa]

Well Tim Horton's puts stores where they believe there's a need. I've heard They bought land in North Halton and don't plan to build anything there for years because they believe there will be a demand in the future.

If that demand doesn't materialize the store is closed.

I know there are two Timmy's and a Timmy's in an ESSO within walking distance from my house and all are well used.

If all these Libraries are packed and being well used I guess that would be a defense against closing them. So far I have not seen that defense being used however.

All the libraries are packed and well used and shouldn't be closed. There you go.

Here are some more people saying the same sort of thing:

Constituents to Ford: Lose our library and lose our votes

Doug Ford had a message Tuesday morning for Margaret Atwood and her campaign to prevent service cuts to public libraries.

“Tell her to go run in the next election and get democratically elected,” the Etobicoke councillor said, adding as an example that it “wouldn't bother” his constituents if the Northern Elms library branch at Kipling Ave. and Rexdale Blvd. were closed.

Apparently he is incorrect.

If Ford's comments raised eyebrows at City Hall, they raised blood pressure among patrons of this supposedly disposable library.

Statistics from the Toronto Public Library show that usage is rising at the branch, with 15 per cent more checkouts in June 2011 compared to last year.

“My blood is boiling,” said Beverly Pringle, a resident of the ward since 1984.

“As you can see, (the library) is really rather important to me,” she said, using her cane to tap a teetering stack of books on tape she was picking up for two sight-impaired friends

.