OECD: Canada's richest get richer...

[TimG]

Ever hear about Japanese occupation,civil war,impearalism,attempted colonialization or WW2?

WTF? Europeans trashed their countries twice in the same period. They recovered. The only people who are to blame for the slow Chinese growth are the Chinese.

[WWWTT]

Har!

No to my eyes

Saying Har! is like Ronald Reagan saying "Oh there you go again" in a telivised political debate with Jimmy Carter.Pretty much the kiss of death for anyone who thinks its a brilliant statement.

As far as things getting better in Canada.....Ya I guess if you are a CEO or vice president of a Bank or multi million corporation.Of which you are neither and I sincerely doubt you actually believe that!

Ok its bed time so go ahead and have the last word.Make it good and maybe we'll pick up where I left off tomorrow!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

WTF? Europeans trashed their countries twice in the same period. They recovered. The only people who are to blame for the slow Chinese growth are the Chinese.

Where were you a few days/weeks ago when Portugal,Spain,Greece,Italy,Britain were bringing the world economies down?

Oh sorry you must have ment another Europe!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

I have bein to China four times,Hunan,Guangxi,Guangdong provinces,Hong Kong and Macau.These places are all in the south and yes I have visited rural aswell as urban.

Then the obvious disparities should be evident.

Have you ever bein to some of the poorer areas in Canada?

Yes, but there was only 50 people living there.

So please explain how they are copying current leaders?And I guess they are only copying how to be successful.When I last checked we are just barely getting out of a recession.Are they copying how to get into recessions aswell or were they sick that day when this was being taught in economics 101?(This is actually one of the most lamest points I have ever heard someone use for an argument)

Your thoughts are garbled...but I will try to respond anyway. The Chinese are explicitly adopting the methods of the reigning superpower. They even want to go to the Moon!

As far as why China has not bein able to catch up to the west until the last 30-40 yrs is very simple.Ever hear about Japanese occupation,civil war,impearalism,attempted colonialization or WW2?

Didn't seem to slow down Japan very much, and hell, the US nuked them!

[M.Dancer]

Do you think our burgeoning service sector "McJob" economy will support our standard of living long term?

McJobs are only part of the economy. There is also SAP, IBM, Apple, Bombardier, Symcor, BMO....

and yes, even a McJobber can afford an iPad..

[Tilter]

Which sorts of policies do you mean? What kind of party would you prefer? Something like Doer's NDP? Just curious.

Everyone should follow the lead of the NDP.

Raise corporate taxes--- they make too much so soakum to death.

Companies see they can no longer make a profit on their investments so they lay off 1/2 of the staff.

When the Layoffs run out of benefits Jack increases the time people can collect pogey . Jack raises the "donation" of the businesses. They lay off more. they close up shop so Jack prints money to pay the pogey & welfare people.

The only business left in Canada is the National mint who have to expand 2000% , hire new artists to design 100,000, 500,000 and 1 million dollar bills (the average weekly takehome" of pogey getters)

Jack is a hero. the country sinks slowly into the ocean likely because of the weight of the money produced by Jack.

Vote NDP.

[maple_leafs182]

Everyone should follow the lead of the NDP.

Raise corporate taxes--- they make too much so soakum to death.

Companies see they can no longer make a profit on their investments so they lay off 1/2 of the staff.

When the Layoffs run out of benefits Jack increases the time people can collect pogey . Jack raises the "donation" of the businesses. They lay off more. they close up shop so Jack prints money to pay the pogey & welfare people.

The only business left in Canada is the National mint who have to expand 2000% , hire new artists to design 100,000, 500,000 and 1 million dollar bills (the average weekly takehome" of pogey getters)

Jack is a hero. the country sinks slowly into the ocean likely because of the weight of the money produced by Jack.

Vote NDP.

Ya, that is pretty much what would happen, I personally think the US is getting close to that. I know the NDP really doesn't understand economics but the conservatives aren't a viable alternative either. Instead of spending that money to help people they will spend it on expanding prisons, wars and the military.

That is why we can't use fiat currencies, governments always end up abusing them. They push us so far into debt and we end up spending tens of millions of dollars a day just serving that debt. Paper money has never worked long term and it never will, it can't.

[eyeball]

Ummmm....are you one of those who see nobility in poverty...they don't...that's why they leave...so they won't be poor.

All Bajans, many or just the poor? Barbados is definitely not an economic basket-case, not by a long shot, especially if poor people are free to pick fruit and veggies and catch all the fish they can eat plus they can sell stuff they find on the beach to tourists. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seemed to be implying that poor Bajan were better than poor Canadians because poor people there went out and picked, caught and sold things to make their living rather than sit around waiting for a welfare cheque.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume it was the free for all in Barbados you made it sound like. If not, how do poor Bajan get around all the rules and regulations, licencing, registering, quotas, leases and so on and so forth that poor people here would have to comply with? Like I said, if any poor Canadian tried without all these ducks in a row they'd be crucified. Are you suggesting they should anyway? When did you suddenly become such an anarchist?

[WWWTT]

Everyone should follow the lead of the NDP.

Raise corporate taxes--- they make too much so soakum to death.

Companies see they can no longer make a profit on their investments so they lay off 1/2 of the staff.

When the Layoffs run out of benefits Jack increases the time people can collect pogey . Jack raises the "donation" of the businesses. They lay off more. they close up shop so Jack prints money to pay the pogey & welfare people.

The only business left in Canada is the National mint who have to expand 2000% , hire new artists to design 100,000, 500,000 and 1 million dollar bills (the average weekly takehome" of pogey getters)

Jack is a hero. the country sinks slowly into the ocean likely because of the weight of the money produced by Jack.

Vote NDP.

This is something that I have never understood?

Tilter do you own a multi million dollar corporation?Are you a CEO,vice president or board member or have any such affiliation with one?

I sincerely doubt you are any of the above,so then why are you so quick to defend these people and organizations?

Do you think these organizations actually care about you?They obviously do not when you fill up your SUV or pay your bills!

Why do you feel it is neccessary to make up wild fantasies just to protect them and help or justify them to continuely gouge you any way they can concievabely imagine?

WWWTT

[bloodyminded]

A few years ago I met a man from Barbados..he had some thoughts on poverty.

He said poverty was much stranger in Canada, where there are relatively few poor people, than in Barbadoes, where there are many.

He said, in Canada, the poor could go hungry if they don't have money, in Barbados, if the poor are hungry, they: fish, pick fruit/vegetables, sell shells to sea side sightseers...

He said in Barbados, the poor cannot afford electricity...in Canada, the poor cannot afford premium cable services.

He said the poor in Canada are lazy....the poor in Barbados are not but have little opportunity....which is why you do not see very many poor bajans in Canada...

I enjoy these anecdotal little political fictions, in which the subject becomes the mouthpiece for the poster, by wanton coincidence agreeing on every single point.

No doubt Mr. Barbados also loves Reagan, mocks Layton's health problems, prefers European immigrants over third-worlders, and enjoys the same radio stations. A veritable doppleganger.

[bloodyminded]

All Bajans, many or just the poor? Barbados is definitely not an economic basket-case, not by a long shot, especially if poor people are free to pick fruit and veggies and catch all the fish they can eat plus they can sell stuff they find on the beach to tourists. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seemed to be implying that poor Bajan were better than poor Canadians because poor people there went out and picked, caught and sold things to make their living rather than sit around waiting for a welfare cheque.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume it was the free for all in Barbados you made it sound like. If not, how do poor Bajan get around all the rules and regulations, licencing, registering, quotas, leases and so on and so forth that poor people here would have to comply with? Like I said, if any poor Canadian tried without all these ducks in a row they'd be crucified. Are you suggesting they should anyway? When did you suddenly become such an anarchist?

Why take his self-indulgent little made up fantasy seriously in the first place?

It would take you about three minutes to invent "a man you met" from this or that place, and who echoed your every political stance in pitch-perfect tones; the whole thing presented as quite educational for you, hey, isn't that interesting stuff?....and hey, they're his words, not yours! You're simply reporting.

[M.Dancer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seemed to be implying that poor Bajan were better than poor Canadians because poor people there went out and picked, caught and sold things to make their living rather than sit around waiting for a welfare cheque.

You are wrong. Inflation is running at 6%, unemployment at 10%, youth unemployment is over 30% and the average wage is about $300US per week.

The biggest difference why the poor in Canada are better off is opportunity. In Barbados the largest employer is tourism, which surprise surprise is seasonal.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume it was the free for all in Barbados you made it sound like. If not, how do poor Bajan get around all the rules and regulations, licencing, registering, quotas, leases and so on and so forth that poor people here would have to comply with? Like I said, if any poor Canadian tried without all these ducks in a row they'd be crucified. Are you suggesting they should anyway? When did you suddenly become such an anarchist?

You are out to lunch

[Bob]

I enjoy these anecdotal little political fictions, in which the subject becomes the mouthpiece for the poster, by wanton coincidence agreeing on every single point.

No doubt Mr. Barbados also loves Reagan, mocks Layton's health problems, prefers European immigrants over third-worlders, and enjoys the same radio stations. A veritable doppleganger.

This is a really stupid post. Anecdotes like that are not political fictions, they help illustrate certain realities. Aside from extreme situations, such as a person suffering from serious illness, there are very few situations in which a Canadian can really blame 'poverty' on factors beyond his or her control. Many welfare policies allow people to sit around and do nothing on the backs of taxpayers. Spend some time in subsidized housing neighbourhoods, which are often located within nice neighbourhoods (which has negative effects on the housing market, as well, typically depressing the values of adjacent housing blocks), and see for yourself welfare moms who sit around all day watching TV and working under-the-table jobs as waitresses while enjoying artificially low rent that is subsidized by the taxpayer. Is it any wonder there is a huge waiting list for these housing options? I'm getting off topic here, but I agree with M. Dancer's suggestion that poverty is Canada is largely a fantasy, and is perpetuated by welfare policies, rather than the other way around.

[bloodyminded]

This is a really stupid post.

Though not as stupid, surely, as those that are invented, the "guy I met" tales that are designed (albeit poorly) to confer an air of authority upon someone's opinion.

[Bob]

Though not as stupid, surely, as those that are invented, the "guy I met" tales that are designed (albeit poorly) to confer an air of authority upon someone's opinion.

Why are you assuming he's lying? I have many such personal anecdotes from my own experience. I think M. Dancer is challenging the assertion that these social welfare policies are the "safety net" that prevent Canadians from starving in the streets, while in reality simply killing incentives for most of these "at-risk" folks to go and be productive. There's nothing wrong with anecdotes, I think they help explain and illustrate concepts.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Bob

[eyeball]

You are wrong.

Hey pay attention dipshit and stop changing the subject.

You said poor Bajan are better than poor Canadians because they don't sit around waiting for welfare cheques. You then went on to describe why with the clear implication that Canadian poor people could or should do the same thing.

Now you're back-pedaling, twisting and squirming and trying to weasel out of the corner you backed yourself into.

[Bob]

Hey pay attention dipshit and stop changing the subject.

You said poor Bajan are better than poor Canadians because they don't sit around waiting for welfare cheques. You then went on to describe why with the clear implication that Canadian poor people could or should do the same thing.

Now you're back-pedaling, twisting and squirming and trying to weasel out of the corner you backed yourself into.

That's not how I understood M. Dancer's post. I understood it as him suggesting that our social policies destroy the incentives for the poor to go out and work, effectively perpetuating the cycle of poverty. And as poverty grows (and I use that term lightly because I think poverty is a relative term), the natural reaction from the socialists is to tax and spend more, again perpetuating the problem. There is nothing inherently better or worse about Bajan or any ordinary low-income Canadian, the difference is social systems between Canada and Barbados regarding welfare.

[eyeball]

Why are you assuming he's lying?

Because of the way he's changing his tune.

I have many such personal anecdotes from my own experience. I think M. Dancer is challenging the assertion that these social welfare policies are the "safety net" that prevent Canadians from starving in the streets, while in reality simply killing incentives for most of these "at-risk" folks to go and be productive.

Momo is clearly saying that poor Bajans are more moral than poor Canadians because poor Canadians refuse to help themselves by utilizing the natural resources that surround them the way Bajan's do. How far do you think a poor Canadian would get if they did what Morris is describing?

There's nothing wrong with anecdotes, I think they help explain and illustrate concepts.

It's when they fall into the hands of a bullshit artist that things go wrong.

[eyeball]

That's not how I understood M. Dancer's post. I understood it as him suggesting that our social policies destroy the incentives for the poor to go out and work, effectively perpetuating the cycle of poverty.

Really, where the hell do you get that?

And as poverty grows (and I use that term lightly because I think poverty is a relative term), the natural reaction from the socialists is to tax and spend more, again perpetuating the problem. There is nothing inherently better or worse about Bajan or any ordinary low-income Canadian, the difference is social systems between Canada and Barbados regarding welfare.

Sounds more like the difference is that in Canada the tragedy of the commons has been replaced with the tragedy of enclosure and in Barbados every one is still free to do whatever they need to do to survive.

The natural reaction of the poor in Barbados is to use their freedom, but in Canada that freedom doesn't exist and our poor would be arrested for doing the same thing.

[M.Dancer]

Barbados every one is still free to do whatever they need to do to survive.

Except get a well paying job that will allow your kids to go to university....

That's where Canada has Barbados beat, and why perhaps out of a population of under 300,000, 100,000 live in Canada, Britain and the US.

[eyeball]

Except get a well paying job that will allow your kids to go to university....

That's where Canada has Barbados beat, and why perhaps out of a population of under 300,000, 100,000 live in Canada, Britain and the US.

Bully for them, to bad they're completely besides the point you're trying to weasel out of.

You, or your pal said; in Canada, the poor could go hungry if they don't have money, in Barbados, if the poor are hungry, they: fish, pick fruit/vegetables, sell shells to sea side sightseers......the poor in Canada are lazy.

The poor in Canada are hamstrung by all sorts of rules and regulations that Bajans apparently don't have to worry about. If you're suggesting our poor be given the same opportunity Bajan poor have I agree. Lets make Canada the free for all paradise Barbados is so our poor can take care of themselves the way their poor do.

[M.Dancer]

Bully for them, to bad they're completely besides the point you're trying to weasel out of.

You, or your pal said; in Canada, the poor could go hungry if they don't have money, in Barbados, if the poor are hungry, they: fish, pick fruit/vegetables, sell shells to sea side sightseers......the poor in Canada are lazy.

The poor in Canada are hamstrung by all sorts of rules and regulations that Bajans apparently don't have to worry about. If you're suggesting our poor be given the same opportunity Bajan poor have I agree. Lets make Canada the free for all paradise Barbados is so our poor can take care of themselves the way their poor do.

You really should work on the reading comprehension part, instead of trying to weasel yourself into a corner..

He said in Barbados, the poor cannot afford electricity...in Canada, the poor cannot afford premium cable services.

He said the poor in Canada are lazy....the poor in Barbados are not but have little opportunity....which is why you do not see very many poor bajans in Canada...

Maybe if I quote the whole piece and you read it slowly...

Ask yourself which is worse, having no electricity or no premium cable?

Being able to pick fruit and fish, or being able to get a good paying job?

Hmmm?

[bloodyminded]

Why are you assuming he's lying?

I once met a fellow from Bogota who had an interesting opinion on the wealthy in North America. He said he had seen first-hand and up-close the effects of free market neoliberalism on the have-nots, and expressed astonishment that many Canadians were blithely unaware of the way investments and corporate shareholding was directly related to violence against poor, innocent people. He said he'd seen union leaders shot otuside the nation's capital on behalf of Coca Cola bottling subsidiaries, and peasants forced to pay a third of their income for water...ever since the right-wing government gifted water services to private firms.

He related how the rich in North America simply don't understand the effects of their own enrichment, in myriad ways, and how such horrors are actually related, on a smaller scale, to the working and welfare poor here in the North.

.....

That's not difficult to do, Bob.

Whenever someone goes into storytelling mode, introduces an anecdotal "native" who is wise, and who agrees with the poster on every point ....my suspicions are immediately raised. Hell, I have intensely studied literature, and I'm an amateur movie buff; the cliches and tropes are completely recognizeable, even banal. He might as well have said the man was "tall, dark and handsome," or described their first meeting as "A car door opens; we see feet emerge, dressed in fine shoes, and step on to the curb. Pan up."

I have many such personal anecdotes from my own experience.

Even if the tale were literally true, and not invented or at least embellished, it is not a telling anecdote.

If it is, why? A man from another country agrees with my political opinions, or disagrees?

So if I met Noam Chomsky from the exotic world of near-Boston, and repeated what he said, that would tell us something?

Or does it work better if it's a fellow from an impoverished naiton?

Because if so, I'm sure you'll agree that the anti-Western (or -Northern, if we prefer) sentiment which could be articulately explained from many of these folks would differ from M. Dancer's Man Friday story in some important details.

I think M. Dancer is challenging the assertion that these social welfare policies are the "safety net" that prevent Canadians from starving in the streets, while in reality simply killing incentives for most of these "at-risk" folks to go and be productive.

I have no doubt that's his point, or something similar.

There's nothing wrong with anecdotes, I think they help explain and illustrate concepts.

I have no problem with anecdotes either. But we have to trust in the integrity of the poster to be honest, since there's no way to check them.

[bloodyminded]

Bully for them, to bad they're completely besides the point you're trying to weasel out of.

You, or your pal said; in Canada, the poor could go hungry if they don't have money, in Barbados, if the poor are hungry, they: fish, pick fruit/vegetables, sell shells to sea side sightseers......the poor in Canada are lazy.

The poor in Canada are hamstrung by all sorts of rules and regulations that Bajans apparently don't have to worry about. If you're suggesting our poor be given the same opportunity Bajan poor have I agree. Lets make Canada the free for all paradise Barbados is so our poor can take care of themselves the way their poor do.

Further, I get the impression that the life of the poor in Barbados has a lot more aspects, and is a lot different in usual respects, from the colonial fantasy of resource-rich exotic nations that is portrayed in M's post. It sounds like a caricature of the first order.

[Moonlight Graham]

Saying the poor are disabled or mentally ill is also a stereotype. I think if you could quantify the numbers, the disabled, the mentally ill would be a minority.

I never said all were that way. My point is there are many kinds of people on social assistance, ya there are some that are lazy and who try to beat the system or who spend their cheques in wasteful ways, but I would call that an argument for possible reform and not an argument against social assistance. In Alberta they had a call-in number for people to report their neighbours etc. who were wasting their welfare money on ridiculous things or defrauding the system. It was very popular lol.

That happens to all kind of people...it in itself is not a reason for poverty, it is an excuse. Should the person who decides to ....ummm.....get and education and work despite the traumas, get extra credit?

Go sexually molest your kid to the point where they run away and tell me how they turn out.

I bet you have never been to a food bank...watching the able bodies stroll in and tote the loot out...what's more, I bet you haven't been to the bingo hall the day the welfare cheques come in....if you want to really talk to the poor..you would hear the stories, the dodges, the scams and how they can make middle class dogooders feel so bad they would eat crow....gimme a schmoke eh, and I will tell you sumptink

I bet I volunteered at a food bank for 2 years and worked in a community agency that had a food bank for a year. I bet you haven`t been to Barbados.