Toronto deficit is historical Miller not hysterical Ford

[Shady]

increase by 7-8% a year.

You think increasing property taxes by 7 - 8% a year is sustainable?

[punked]

You think increasing property taxes by 7 - 8% a year is sustainable?

No see this is where you are being willfully ignorant again. The tax rate on properties isn't being raised on cent that isn't what Ford did. He froze property assessments Shady which is a different thing.

[punked]

The globe has an article which paints a pretty bad picture of how Ford is handling this situation.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/marcus-gee/fords-financial-numbers-dont-add-up/article2099511/

[punked]

That's misleading. It was over 4 years and now there's talk of a major police layoff.

Really because Ford made a campaign promise about this he promised to hire a 100 more of them. So he is a liar, it is that simple eh?

[Guest Peeves]

Really because Ford made a campaign promise about this he promised to hire a 100 more of them. So he is a liar, it is that simple eh?

From 2000 through 2008, the city's operating expenditures increased at an annual average pace of 5.3 per cent. Yet its main source of revenue, property taxes, increased at 3.6 per cent per annum. It is this wedge between the growth rates of spending and revenue that gave rise to the structural deficit.

Considering lay offs makes no one a liar. Your use of hyperbole is amusing.

If and when police are laid off then start your agitprop.

Meantime I doubt he promised raises either, one goes with the other.

Miller caused the deficit that existed when Ford ran for office. It's a fact whether you continue to deny it or not. Link to something showing a surplus in October 2010 please.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Peeves

[punked]

Considering lay offs makes no one a liar. Your use of hyperbole is amusing.

If and when police are laid off then start your agitprop.

Meantime I doubt he promised raises either, one goes with the other.

Miller caused the deficit that existed when Ford ran for office. It's a fact whether you continue to deny it or not. Link to something showing a surplus in October 2010 please.

You are right he promised in his campaign to put more cops on the streets now you say he is looking to lay them off. That doesn't make him a lair at all.

[Oleg Bach]

You can't lay off the cops. They are law enforcement - Those that make the laws would be powerless and just paper tigers without their standing army which is the cops. G 20 was a good model of who is running the place ...The show of force was to show who was boss and it was not some simple mayor.

[Black Dog]

Miller caused the deficit that existed when Ford ran for office. It's a fact whether you continue to deny it or not. Link to something showing a surplus in October 2010 please.

By your own information, Toronto had a deficit when Miller took over, which implies there's more at work here than your simple-minded and unproven theory that everything is Miller's fault.

[Shwa]

By your own information, Toronto had a deficit when Miller took over, which implies there's more at work here than your simple-minded and unproven theory that everything is Miller's fault.

Ford expected to plow surplus into 2011 budget

Mayor Rob Ford is planning to use the city’s one-time surplus to help balance his 2011 budget, avoiding unpopular service cuts and delivering on a property tax freeze, say members of the executive and budget committees.

“Obviously if you can avoid a tax increase and not cut services based on your previous year’s surplus, that’s not an entirely bad thing,” said Councillor Peter Milczyn, who sits on both, adding that the city of Toronto has been balancing budgets with one-time money since amalgamation.

Oh, but wait. This story is from December, 2010. What's this talk of surplus? What was that Mayor Ford? What did you say?

Ford makes layoffs sound like a certainty

“We’ve saved over $70 million in the first six months so if we can find $70 million I’m sure we can save $700 million, that’s for sure,” Ford said.

So, hmmmmm, let's get this straight....

In the start of the new year, the Mayor plans to use this mysterious "surplus" to balance the budget; like Miller had before him. Yet, six months later, the Mayor says they have "saved" over $70 million. Why, without any service cuts or massive layoffs, all the while kissing the car tax good-bye, how did he actually "save" over $70 million" dollars. The guy is a pure genius because it appears that he and his Nation have made things appear out of thin air. No, not genius, it's... it's... magic!

Whoops, I almost forgot:

Link to something showing a surplus in October 2010 please.

Toronto posts $275M surplus

Now this story is not from October, but from November, but I am hoping proximity will do.

[punked]

So, hmmmmm, let's get this straight....

In the start of the new year, the Mayor plans to use this mysterious "surplus" to balance the budget; like Miller had before him. Yet, six months later, the Mayor says they have "saved" over $70 million. Why, without any service cuts or massive layoffs, all the while kissing the car tax good-bye, how did he actually "save" over $70 million" dollars. The guy is a pure genius because it appears that he and his Nation have made things appear out of thin air. No, not genius, it's... it's... magic!

I just want to point out here he didn't save 70 million. He counts people "saving" their tax dollars as savings but he didn't actually save any money in terms of cuts. He is counting the car tax which blew a 64 million dollar hole in the budget as "savings". It is clearly not savings and someone should call the liar on the fact when the government taxes in less revenue it is not "savings" for the government it is adding to the deficit which is debt. That is the opposite of savings. He is playing fast and lose with facts because he knows no one will call him on his lies. Typical of a conservative.

[Guest Peeves]

By your own information, Toronto had a deficit when Miller took over, which implies there's more at work here than your simple-minded and unproven theory that everything is Miller's fault.

Do you get off calling responders simple minded? If you do, good luck in getting responses.

[Guest Peeves]

Ford expected to plow surplus into 2011 budget

Oh, but wait. This story is from December, 2010. What's this talk of surplus? What was that Mayor Ford? What did you say?

Ford makes layoffs sound like a certainty

So, hmmmmm, let's get this straight....

In the start of the new year, the Mayor plans to use this mysterious "surplus" to balance the budget; like Miller had before him. Yet, six months later, the Mayor says they have "saved" over $70 million. Why, without any service cuts or massive layoffs, all the while kissing the car tax good-bye, how did he actually "save" over $70 million" dollars. The guy is a pure genius because it appears that he and his Nation have made things appear out of thin air. No, not genius, it's... it's... magic!

Whoops, I almost forgot:

Toronto posts $275M surplus

Now this story is not from October, but from November, but I am hoping proximity will do.

That's true. However it did not cover the deficit that existed.

The City of Toronto has accrued a surplus of $275 million in the current fiscal year, a sum that cuts the anticipated budget shortfall by more than half, outgoing Mayor David Miller says.

The city was still in a major deficit position in the millions when Ford was elected on his platform.

[punked]

That's true. However it did not cover the deficit that existed.

The city was still in a major deficit position in the millions when Ford was elected on his platform.

and it got even worse when he won. Thus your thread premise is a lie and you admit it.

[Shwa]

Let's review, shall we?

That's true...

Miller caused the deficit that existed when Ford ran for office. It's a fact whether you continue to deny it or not. Link to something showing a surplus in October 2010 please.

So I did supply "something" showing a surplus in October 2010. Well, November 2010, so you get the gist.

However it did not cover the deficit that existed.

Was it supposed to?

The city was still in a major deficit position in the millions when Ford was elected on his platform.

And what was his platform? To use the budget surpluses to cover off the deficit? Well, he has done that already hasn't he? So what's next now that he has used that one all up?

What else was in his platform? Let's see this beaut of a quote:

Rob Ford’s election platform vision

But in a perfect world, what I’d like to do is get us from the red into the black, have a surplus, reduce our debt, have our finances under control then I’d say great let’s welcome more people.”

That sounds exactly like what David Miller was doing already. LOFL!

What else do you have to say Mr. Ford?

If elected, he promised to eliminate the vehicle registration and land transfer taxes, which bring in approximately $218-238 million a year.

So reduce the things that bring in supluses, then complain that austerity is needed, slash service to the bones and then - and then - when it simply doesn't work out...

With Rob Ford, freezing property taxes is job one

“

I’ve asked staff to come back with a zero-based budget,” Ford told a side room packed with media, politicians and aides. “Property taxes will not go up this year.”

Oh-oh...

Look out 2012...

[Black Dog]

Do you get off calling responders simple minded? If you do, good luck in getting responses.

If the pointy hat fits...

Toronto had a deficit before Miller took office. So, unless he had eliminated it at some point before dipping back into the red, your claim that Miller caused the deficit is completely false.

Now, a person who was actually interested in looking at this topic instead of scoring partisan political points for his team would argue Miller made it worse and show exactly how, but that would require getting really into details about the city's finances and we all know how boring that stuff is and how much better it is to reduce complex issues to bumper-sticker length soundbites.

Question: if Ford can't get out from the deficit in four years, does it become Ford's problem or do you get to hang this on Miller forever and ever amen?

[Michael Hardner]

KPMG Report

Hey all - I believe I have found source material for us to discuss - the KPMG report.

[Michael Hardner]

Please review and let me know your thoughts. Is this indeed the report currently being discussed ?

[Black Dog]

Some interesting tidbits here...

Mayor Rob Ford’s administration continues to raise the spectre of a $774 million budget hole in the 2012 budget even though new revenues have dramatically changed the outlook.

For example, the city has already revealed it has an extra $88 million in surplus funds from 2010 that can be used to reduce the gap, and other extra revenues can cut it further.

That brings Miller's surplus up to around $300M, or more than what Ford's consultants have found so far in the way of "gravy".

But this bit is just for Peeves.

Milczyn said the real difference is the Miller administration maintained services were being provided efficiently and the Ford administration doesn’t agree.

He said Ford is willing to act to put the city on a sound financial footing.

“We’ve had a structural deficit since amalgamation occurred (in 1998) and it’s never really been addressed. The goal of this administration during this term of council is to try to finally address the structural deficit.”

[Black Dog]

Please review and let me know your thoughts. Is this indeed the report currently being discussed ?

It's one of a series. There's been five reports so far on various areas: Public Works/Infrastructure, Parks/Environment, Community Development and Recreation, Licensing and Standards, and Economic Development.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm wondering about IT... oh... well, here it is:

$90M budget.

http://www.toronto.ca/budget2011/pdf/op11_an_i&t.pdf

[Shwa]

I'm wondering about IT... oh... well, here it is:

$90M budget.

I wonder if Dash Domi could get the City a deal and save some money on the IT budget. I am sure Jacobek and Ford are fast friends. Jacobek could be the intermediary...

[Wild Bill]

If the pointy hat fits...

Toronto had a deficit before Miller took office. So, unless he had eliminated it at some point before dipping back into the red, your claim that Miller caused the deficit is completely false.

Now, a person who was actually interested in looking at this topic instead of scoring partisan political points for his team would argue Miller made it worse and show exactly how, but that would require getting really into details about the city's finances and we all know how boring that stuff is and how much better it is to reduce complex issues to bumper-sticker length soundbites.

Question: if Ford can't get out from the deficit in four years, does it become Ford's problem or do you get to hang this on Miller forever and ever amen?

Toronto is a foreign city to a kid from the Hammer and I avoid the place like the plague but that being said, when they talk about "one time monies" are they talking about bailouts from other governments?

Perhaps you know better than I. That's why I'm asking. Has Toronto been self-sustaining with its budgets or has it been surviving on bailouts paid by taxpayers that don't even live there and/or never go there, except maybe once a season to watch the Leafs lose, yet again.

Outside of the GTA media this is a popular viewpoint and I truly am not sure if it is true or not. One thing I do know, if it is true it is one more reason to resent Toronto.

[Black Dog]

Toronto is a foreign city to a kid from the Hammer and I avoid the place like the plague but that being said, when they talk about "one time monies" are they talking about bailouts from other governments?

I think it means money from annual budget surpluses.

[Shwa]

Good article on the actuals and what we are actually talking about. And seriously, former Mayor Miller must be chuckling.

From $350 million surplus to $774 million deficit in one Ford year?

We’ve heard a lot recently from Mayor Rob Ford and his supporters about how the city is facing a $774 million budget hole. This crisis is used to explain why we need to consider the possibility of slashing snow removal, contracting out garbage collection and stopping the practice of fluoridating the water.

But wait! Here comes Councillor Gord Perks, who sat on the budget committee of David Miller (and alongside Shelley Carroll and Kyle Rae, did most of the heavy lifting of actually writing those last few David Miller budgets) to argue with the math. As he was quoted in Torontoist, without much context, my old friend and former colleague Perks says:

The mayor’s allies are profoundly misleading Torontonians. [...] In 2010 we ran a $350 [million] surplus. I don’t understand how in one year that becomes a $774 million deficit. The important thing is though, that water and garbage are not on the property tax, so none of the cuts to things like environment days or fluoridation or any of that has a single thing to do with your property taxes.

Enjoy the chuckle...

[Wild Bill]

Good article on the actuals and what we are actually talking about. And seriously, former Mayor Miller must be chuckling.

From $350 million surplus to $774 million deficit in one Ford year?

Enjoy the chuckle...

I'm chuckling that someone would consider a man who sat in that position with those other players to be an unbiased source!

Is it not perhaps possible that he might want to deliberately make Ford look bad?