LOL Greece!

[Oleg Bach]

There is if you're asking other people to pay for it.

If you cruch the numbers they have paid for it. Is it the fault the workers and governmental employees in Greece that their leaders took bad advice and squandered what was not theirs? The money is there. Pension funds should not be used as leverage money by private enterprise or by government. Pensions are savings. You can talk all you want about someone having a cushy retirement and vent all the resentment you want - but that does not change the fact that working for 25 years is no different than working for 37 years - to force old people to keep on going without a rest because some group of inept and greedy high ranking leaders want to maintain a small rich group?

The Greeks are suddenly poor? I am sure there still is a segment of Greek society that is still rich...and expect the poorer brothers.....to take a fall - This is always the case...someone some where is getting or expecting to get richer or stay rich during this turmoil.

[Sir Bandelot]

Similar problems in the UK have prompted them to raise the age of retirement by one year. It makes me wonder what good it does to pay wages to someone who is elderly and often less productive, while displacing youth who need jobs. Either way, the old folks get paid for their year whether by wages or retirement, but how much work is getting done? And who loses.

These tactics fail to see their own results. it's pay me now, or pay me later. The answer from short-soghted politicians is always, later.

[Oleg Bach]

Met an Irish immigrant the other day. He said that Ireland is pure poverty - Met an older Russian recent immigrant - He's just happy to eat. Some how I believe that the poor do not make themselves poor as some may wish to believe. That it is their fault for their straights! Poverty or general economic collapse is not something that is self inflicted. It is usually done to them. Forget the media light weights and their views on why these things occur - I just want to know - WHO is responsible? Who are the INDIVIDUALS who bring about these disasters? People made this happen...who are they?

See the above is a logical question that will never be answered by media - government or the judical investigative institutions....The world court has "crimes against humanity" - what about economic crimes against humanity that manifest in a material way that is akin to slow motion incrimental genocide.

[Shady]

If you cruch the numbers they have paid for it.

No they haven't. They don't pay the necessary funds into their pensions to receive the benefits they're receiving for as long as they're receiving them. Which is 30+ years thanks to a ridiculous public retirement age of 55. It's a giant ponzi scheme. Heckuva job lefties!

[bud]

Met an Irish immigrant the other day. He said that Ireland is pure poverty - Met an older Russian recent immigrant - He's just happy to eat. Some how I believe that the poor do not make themselves poor as some may wish to believe. That it is their fault for their straights! Poverty or general economic collapse is not something that is self inflicted. It is usually done to them. Forget the media light weights and their views on why these things occur - I just want to know - WHO is responsible? Who are the INDIVIDUALS who bring about these disasters? People made this happen...who are they?

See the above is a logical question that will never be answered by media - government or the judical investigative institutions....The world court has "crimes against humanity" - what about economic crimes against humanity that manifest in a material way that is akin to slow motion incrimental genocide.

there is no 'bad' person. it's a system made up of bankers and policy makers who do not think about the consequences of their actions unless it has to do with profits for their company. they're not in the business to think about the consequences their actions may have on the people or on the environment. their job is to make money for the company and watch the shares go up.

[Oleg Bach]

there is no 'bad' person. it's a system made up of bankers and policy makers who do not think about the consequences of their actions unless it has to do with profits for their company. they're not in the business to think about the consequences their actions may have on the people or on the environment. their job is to make money for the company and watch the shares go up.

Sure there are bad persons. Don`t tell me that there are not a few chumps who sit their and plot in glee how to screw humanity. Evil and stupidity are kin. What crap was the former head of the world bank thinking other than rape and pillaging....If he had evil thoughts regarding the abuse of woman - then certainly he might have got a kick out of abusing a whole nation...just a bigger more pronouned thrill!

[bud]

Sure there are bad persons. Don`t tell me that there are not a few chumps who sit their and plot in glee how to screw humanity. Evil and stupidity are kin. What crap was the former head of the world bank thinking other than rape and pillaging....If he had evil thoughts regarding the abuse of woman - then certainly he might have got a kick out of abusing a whole nation...just a bigger more pronouned thrill!

i think they do their best not to think about the consequences and only keep their eyes and mind on the ultimate goal, profit. in order for these systems to work, there needs to be thousands of people involved in making it work. it's not just one or two people.

[WIP]

You're damn right it is. Who do you think is responsible for lowering the retirment age to 55? Increasing an ever growing public sector? Increasing an ever growing public sectors salaries, based on nothing. Increasing their pensions, based on nothing. And expecting people in the private sector to foot the bill. Don't be ridiculous.

I don't know how the public pension system works in Greece (and I'm willing to bet, neither do you), but employees who pay into government or company pension plans do not have a choice regarding contributions, or a say in how the pension funds are managed. In both cases we're now seeing many examples of employers showing us empty pockets and telling us that the money just isn't there, and benefits will have to be cut back...as in the example of Stelco. In Stelco's example, it boils down to the employer owing over a billion to the plan, while expecting that enough retirees would die early enough to maintain the plan's solvency....and they lost the bet...so someone has to pay, and it should be the former owners, the present owners who assumed this liability, but it should not be the steel workers who expect a promise made to be a promise kept....same thing goes for Greece...at some point in the past, the governments made these promises, and now they need to answer to their people why it's okay for to short change them, but not the international bankers!

[Bonam]

same thing goes for Greece...at some point in the past, the governments made these promises, and now they need to answer to their people why it's okay for to short change them, but not the international bankers!

The government made promises it couldn't keep. Why? Because it was politically expedient to do so and let the guy who would be in power a few decades later take the blame. That's how it works. Democratically elected governments plan for a time horizon that is no longer than the maximum term allowed for elected officials to have.

[KeyStone]

Greece is a great example of what happens when the liberal entitlement culture becomes entrenched in a society. It's also a great example of what happens when the public sector is given preference over the private sector. Heckuva job lefties!

That's certainly one perspective, albeit an incorrect one.

The biggest problem identified in Greece, is that many of those in the private industry aren't paying their taxes. There is a huge underground economy - and it isn't the 'evil government workers' cheating on their taxes. Apparently, doctors in Greece report an average income of $12,000. But for the knee-jerk rightwingers, it's much easier to blame the evil government workers, than to take a real look at what's going on.

As for a great example of the private sector being given preference, just take a look at Guatemala. Incredibly low taxes, both personal and corporate. Very little interference by government. Go enjoy. A real paradise. Or perhaps you could look at Ireland's tax haven - that's certainly done wonders for them.

[Sir Bandelot]

This demonstrates how the REAL criminals (ie. the wealthy elite) have now entered a final phase in which their only option left to make increasing profit is to blatantly steal, right from the pockets of people. For centuries in the past they used stealth and concealment to give at least a facade that the system is not inherently corrupted and stacked against the common person. Today the children of the privileged class need not bother to pain themselves to take such steps, their behavior akin to frenzied looting as they grab the last dollar there is left, before the game ends.

The common person who is not politically active, may not be openly aware of these things or willing to riot as the Greeks are, for we have not reached that tipping point as of yet. But the awareness manifests itself in other ways. Subconsciously in the minds of the consumer, we know we're being systematically screwed. And this has consequences. We hear about 'consumer confidence' being low, people are not buying the goodies and the junk that they did a few decades ago. People are not spending, even if they have cash. This is the backlash- consumerism, the very pillar of our system is failing, adding to the eventual demise of our society. This gives the elite no option but to shamelessly take. Thirty years after the Soviet system imploded upon itself due to internal corruption, much to the gloating of western aristocrats, our own corrupted system follows suit. What the soviets did was more honest, they claimed insolvency in an attempt to stay off the worst, before it's too late. We on the other hand continue by raising our debt ceilings. And now today the absurdity of our situation can no longer be concealed...

[Oleg Bach]

The gangsters in old Chicago always in the end ran off with the unions pension fund - not much has changed - the money in Greece simply did not disappear - it was shifted by the shifty.

[Shady]

The gangsters in old Chicago always in the end ran off with the unions pension fund

Incorrect. The money never existed in the first place. Greek public workers weren't paying enough money in to get the benefits they were taking out. The union pension fund was the private sector tax payer footing the bill. It was a giant ponzi scheme, similar to the ones in several states, like California.

[M.Dancer]

This demonstrates how the REAL criminals (ie. the wealthy elite) have now entered a final phase in which their only option left to make increasing profit is to blatantly steal, right from the pockets of people.

Can you demonstrate that.....keeping in mind that 32% of the workforce lives off the taxes of 58%..who aren't so willing to pay their taxes...

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

Who are the real criminals...apparently the everyday ordinary Greek

Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.

The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.

Such incomes defy belief, said Ilias Plaskovitis, the general secretary of the Finance Ministry, who has been in charge of revamping the country’s tax laws. “You need more than that to pay your rent in that neighborhood,” he said.

He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000. Yet signs of wealth abound.

“There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,” Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. “You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income.”

The author of Greece's dilemma are the Greeks. No one else.

[GostHacked]

Incorrect. The money never existed in the first place.

Well, you are correct here. There was no money in the first place. It's all just accounting practices to show the 'money'.

It was a giant ponzi scheme, similar to the ones in several states, like California.

And Ohio, and Florida, actually all of the USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain .... I think you get the picture.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, you are correct here. There was no money in the first place. It's all just accounting practices to show the 'money'.

And Ohio, and Florida, actually all of the USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain .... I think you get the picture.

I forget the name but as I mentioned my Greek butcher said that it was some American finacial wizard who a few years back advise the Greek government on how to lever national cash..blame it on the yanks who always take advantage of their foot soldiers who operate under the banner of socialism.

[Shady]

And Ohio, and Florida, actually all of the USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain .... I think you get the picture.

Not true.

[GostHacked]

Not true.

Care to elaborate?

[Shady]

Care to elaborate?

Private sector pensions are fine. They switched to defined contributions from defined benefits long ago. However, public sector pensions are still basically ponzi schemes relying on private sector contibutions to remain solvent. Which isn't really a pension system at all. It's more like a welfare system. So you're partly right, and partly wrong.

[GostHacked]

Private sector pensions are fine. They switched to defined contributions from defined benefits long ago. However, public sector pensions are still basically ponzi schemes relying on private sector contibutions to remain solvent. Which isn't really a pension system at all. It's more like a welfare system. So you're partly right, and partly wrong.

Well, that's pretty generous of you to admit I was even partly right. Which means you are also partly right, and partly wrong. I guess that's the best I could hope for from you.

Now how is having a central bank not a ponzi scheme? You can't get into the whole thing without looking at the one vital part that is the main cause of these finicial crisis' which is your central banks tied to the world bank and IMF aka the central banks of the world.

[Oleg Bach]

In the film industry I met a few part timers who worked for the government. One such person worked as a lawyer and was envolved in pensions - and he said this about 20 years ago. `By the time you are ready to collect your pension there will be no money to speak of in the fund`. So it that statement was true what is keeping the thing afloat at this time....we might just be faking it and pretending we have money..that could be the case. In time if it is true - the system will ultimately collapse. Pensions are no different than the classic life savings people use to talk about - It`s your money over investment of it or gambling with some ones life`s savings should be under stringent control.

[Shady]

Now how is having a central bank not a ponzi scheme? You can't get into the whole thing without looking at the one vital part that is the main cause of these finicial crisis' which is your central banks tied to the world bank and IMF aka the central banks of the world.

Nope, it has nothing to do with any banks. It's simple math. You have an ever growing group of public workers and even private that are getting more from a system than they're paying in. That's the ponzi scheme. Full pensions at age 55, receiving those full pensions for 20 - 30 years, while only contributing a fraction of that amount while they worked.

[WIP]

This demonstrates how the REAL criminals (ie. the wealthy elite) have now entered a final phase in which their only option left to make increasing profit is to blatantly steal, right from the pockets of people. For centuries in the past they used stealth and concealment to give at least a facade that the system is not inherently corrupted and stacked against the common person. Today the children of the privileged class need not bother to pain themselves to take such steps, their behavior akin to frenzied looting as they grab the last dollar there is left, before the game ends.

The common person who is not politically active, may not be openly aware of these things or willing to riot as the Greeks are, for we have not reached that tipping point as of yet.

And that's what really concerns me over here! Even Wisconsin's protests look tepid and timid in comparison to what's happening in Greece, Spain, England and Iceland, where leaders have attempted to pay off bankers at the expense of the citizenry. Maybe they still have access to real information, which Americans haven't seen for years, after the steady growth in concentration of media ownership and the decline in newspapers and public broadcasting. Which reminds me -- we will be in the same boat in a few years after CBC is privatized, and Suntv becomes our flagship news network. The latest economic numbers show a continued decline in Canadian manufacturing and increasing dependence on resource...especially oil industries to keep the economy going. I'd like to be optimistic, but I'm expecting that Canadians will be passive and clueless, rather than take to the streets over austerity measures.

But the awareness manifests itself in other ways. Subconsciously in the minds of the consumer, we know we're being systematically screwed. And this has consequences. We hear about 'consumer confidence' being low, people are not buying the goodies and the junk that they did a few decades ago. People are not spending, even if they have cash. This is the backlash- consumerism, the very pillar of our system is failing, adding to the eventual demise of our society.

I'm convinced that the reasons have a lot to do with our nearing natural or biospheric limits that are not factored into typical economic theorizing. We do know that there has not been significant real economic growth in most of the world; and the places where economies are growing (like China and India) are realizing that their growth is coming at great, if not catastrophic ecological costs.

Joseph Stiglitz believes the lack of real return on investment is what has created all of these crazy derivative investment schemes during the last 10 years. The only way to get the big returns was to create ponzi schemes on top of existing investment strategies, or to use debt as leverage to raid the public assets of smaller nations -- as in the Greece example.

[GostHacked]

Nope, it has nothing to do with any banks. It's simple math. You have an ever growing group of public workers and even private that are getting more from a system than they're paying in. That's the ponzi scheme. Full pensions at age 55, receiving those full pensions for 20 - 30 years, while only contributing a fraction of that amount while they worked.

The central banks get more than they pay into. The central bank ponzi scheme supports the other ponzi schemes!!!

[Oleg Bach]

The central banks get more than they pay into. The central bank ponzi scheme supports the other ponzi schemes!!!

Money is a religion - a belief system...we must believe that they are rich and we are poor . that they are master and we slave...now if you don`t believe that - then you have a fighting chance at freedom. No one has any real money these days - when there is a 10 billion dollar merger taking place - No real money changes hands - just a few letters from some old lawyers...with influence. Other than that - it`s all paper or digitital - The so-called rich and powerful have figured this out so even they are now buying gold in a desperate attempt to maintain the image of master.