LOL Greece!

[Shady]

The central banks get more than they pay into. The central bank ponzi scheme supports the other ponzi schemes!!!

Complete nonsense. Banks don't set retirement ages, banks don't set pension contributions, banks don't set government social welfare spending, and banks don't set an ever expanding government workforce. You'e obsessed with something that has little to do with the problems of Greece.

[Oleg Bach]

Complete nonsense. Banks don't set retirement ages, banks don't set pension contributions, banks don't set government social welfare spending, and banks don't set an ever expanding government workforce. You'e obsessed with something that has little to do with the problems of Greece.

Yes they do. The banks can ask that wefare checks are dispersed via direct deposit - Then the banks collect a monthly fee from a few million welfare recipients...thats a lot of money - First they tell you ìt is for your own convenience` _ If you do not except the proposal they will then force it upon you. Banks and banking lawyers are very powerful and are well connected - If a banker does not like a certain social policy - he will mention it to a friend who has influence in those matters and things get done - You can make all the laws you want - who ever controls the money rules the roost.

[GostHacked]

Complete nonsense. Banks don't set retirement ages, banks don't set pension contributions, banks don't set government social welfare spending, and banks don't set an ever expanding government workforce. You'e obsessed with something that has little to do with the problems of Greece.

The reason some of these pension funds even exists is due to investing in the stock market and other ponzi schemes operated by central banks, and the financial sector. They may look like separate issues, but they are tied together. Let's say the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund invests that money into a venture that fails. The banks are the ones coordinating the trading and investing for the most part. They seem to make money no matter who loses. The fund gets depleted and there is no retirement. It's just an example so don't go off on teachers n stuff.

You can look at Greece like the canary in the coal mine. You think it's different here but we have the same problems in Canada, even though they are not apparent to some.

Bad investment and bad business and bad accounting practices are the real reason we are in this mess. This goes back to the overall debt of a country.

Just wait a while for the US dollar to go insolvent, it will make Greece look like someones piggy bank.

Edited June 30, 2011 by GostHacked

[Oleg Bach]

A very wise old banker said to me regarding fiscal collapse. `That it takes place because of LAZYNESS - STUPIDITY AND GREED... What he was saying was that the new up and coming finacial people are inept..The only thing holding it together in Canada at present are a small group of wise and experienced men in their early 70s once they are gone all will fall apart. There are no replacements for these talented and dutiful old guys and no one wants to except the position of honour cos`honour is a thing of the past...we are living on borrowed time. These old men can not retire - they will work till they drop. This breed of manager is becoming an extinct species...again good luck in the future - you are going to need it!

[bud]

here is a good article from vanity fair that goes deep into the situation and the players involved:

Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds

As Wall Street hangs on the question “Will Greece default?,” the author heads for riot-stricken Athens, and for the mysterious Vatopaidi monastery, which brought down the last government, laying bare the country’s economic insanity. But beyond a $1.2 trillion debt (roughly a quarter-million dollars for each working adult), there is a more frightening deficit. After systematically looting their own treasury, in a breathtaking binge of tax evasion, bribery, and creative accounting spurred on by Goldman Sachs, Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

link

[dre]

here is a good article from vanity fair that goes deep into the situation and the players involved:

Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds

As Wall Street hangs on the question “Will Greece default?,” the author heads for riot-stricken Athens, and for the mysterious Vatopaidi monastery, which brought down the last government, laying bare the country’s economic insanity. But beyond a $1.2 trillion debt (roughly a quarter-million dollars for each working adult), there is a more frightening deficit. After systematically looting their own treasury, in a breathtaking binge of tax evasion, bribery, and creative accounting spurred on by Goldman Sachs, Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

link

I remember posting a year ago, that I sure would like to know if GS is shortselling Greek debt.

Its amazing that a lot of these bankers and investment bankers arent in prison, but instead recieve huge bonuses from the taxpayers.

Iceland got it essentially right. Tell the IMF and the international bankers to go fuck themselves, and then start frog marching them into prison.

[Sir Bandelot]

Can you demonstrate that.....keeping in mind that 32% of the workforce lives off the taxes of 58%..who aren't so willing to pay their taxes...

Who are the real criminals...apparently the everyday ordinary Greek

The author of Greece's dilemma are the Greeks. No one else.

What you've said appears to be correct, that corruption is rampant in Greece, at many levels of their society. From the lowly cab driver right up to the top levels of government. It should be noted that the Greek government purposely misquoted statistics on the health of their economy to the EU and the IMF. They did so in order to secure loans at a better rate, knowing full well that the real trouble they are in was far worse.

That does not discount that outside influences took advantage of the inherent corruption that is Greece, to take their money and run. The source of their problems goes beyond mere tax evasion and black market dealings. As indicated here-

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=auacgKEWPrFI

“The debt that had to be accumulated, when it’s going badly, is now becoming the object of speculation by precisely those institutions that we saved a year-and-a-half ago,” Merkel said in her speech late yesterday. “That’s very difficult to explain to people in a democracy who should trust us.”

Not just a Greek problem.

The bolding is mine, it shows what I was talking about in regards to loss of confidence.

[Sir Bandelot]

Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis

I don't feel a need to verify it with links, but since you asked, I might oblige. There's hardly a need to look things up. The pattern is always the same.

[Shady]

Looks like California's following the Greece model. Good luck with that guys.

California Prison Psychiatrist Paid $838,706

The chief psychiatrist for California’s overcrowded prison system was paid $838,706 in 2010, more than any other state employee that year, payroll figures released today show.

Bloomberg

[Scotty]

What you've said appears to be correct, that corruption is rampant in Greece, at many levels of their society. From the lowly cab driver right up to the top levels of government. It should be noted that the Greek government purposely misquoted statistics on the health of their economy to the EU and the IMF. They did so in order to secure loans at a better rate, knowing full well that the real trouble they are in was far worse.

Rampant corruption and dishonesty, fifty percent of the economy underground, a nation with grandiose social programs where avoiding paying taxes is a national sport. Big surprise they're bankrupt.

[bud]

Looks like California's following the Greece model. Good luck with that guys.

it looks like all the information that people have shared in here in regards to greece's problems didn't penetrate the bubble around you.

[Oleg Bach]

What no more lamb dinners followed by jugs of ooooozoh on the patio? - Europe hates Greece because the work to life and not live to work.

[Rue]

Not sure why we have a thread discussing this when Michael Lewis already had a great article about this back in October, 2010.

For the love of Pete! Before anyone else writes something stupid please read the above article first.

--------

Glad I went to Greece in October 2009.

Would love to go again as it's a great country. But too bad about the people and their dysfunctional ways (culturally, politically, bureaucratically).

Lol appreciated your intervention. Not to worry. We are a lively bunch.

p

[Rue]

Here are some recent articles. Kind of hard to over look banking practices in Greece at the root of this problem and specifically its allowing debts to rise as much as they did:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-financial-collapse-of-greece-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine-for-the-global-economy

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/greek-bonds-collapse-ecbs-nowotny-announces-bank-will-compromise-agree-temporary-greek-defau

http://economicsnewspaper.com/economics/euro-zone-the-three-possible-scenarios-in-case-of-collapse-greek-40786.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100092968/the-greek-collapse-ought-to-destroy-reputations-around-europe-but-it-wont/

http://www.grreporter.info/en/collapse_greek_competitiveness_according_world_bank_report/3599

The banking system as we know it went into collapse in Europe and North America because of a lack of regulations as to how investments could be made and how much debt could be carried. It really is that simple. For a country that limited its debt ratio and enforced investment regulations such as Canada the ability of people to speculate with bonds, fly by night mortgage deeds and hedging of dividends was kept in check and thus no collapse.

Fact is the US and Europe are both bankrupt and the reason is simple, the rampant speculating and debts have caught up with traders who can no longer hedge their debts and play off future anticipayed profits.

Add that global warming which has destroyed food markets and caused severe water shortages, rampant out of control petro speculation on oil prices, China flooding world markets and creating huge debts no one can pay back for their cheap goods as well as the insurance claim pay outs from 9-11 and now Japan and New Zealand and poof the world banking system is bankrupt and a market correction will happen because the amount of debt can not be paid back.

The only question now is, what does China do when it can't be paid back. Greece is done like dinner and Nigeria is probably next up. The US is bankrupt. The US dollar and Treasury is under severe crisis and could also be next.

Trying to blame this on socialism is foolish. The fact is China is anything but socialist. Its a large government corporate monopoly and in that sense no different from the swollen multi nationals it competes against.

Free market economy has collapsed precisely because without regulation to enforce the markets from being monopolized by a few, it has been.

Socialism has nothing to do with it. Large governments and government spending as the scapegoat for lack of investment and banking regulations makes no sense.

George Bush had no problem escalating government growth and allowing his government to become a clearing house for the tendering of fixed contracts to multi-nationals with ties to his government in Iraq.

The US is bankrupt because of Iraq, Afghanistan, and disasterous lack of regulation to its banking practices which started with Jimmy Carter's desire to assure every American could have a house. From there Reagan and Bush assured the rampant deregulation of banking enabling anyone to get a loan for any amount with little or no down payment. They then took away regulations as to credit cards.

Interestingly many economists warned credit card financing would be the beginning of the end for capitalism and they are probably right. Credit cards triggered both inflation and recession by causing interest rates to go ga ga.

Reagonomics proved they never worked. There of course was no trickle down effect but the exact opposite, the pooling of revenues into the hands of a few monoplies while record numbers of bankruptcies then took place.

The corupt lobby groups in Washington enabled Japan to corner the market on auto trade with unfair trade restrictions on the U.S. Americans could not trade cars in Japan except on a limited basis but Japan flooded the US markets and why-because this was the price the US paid for naval presence in Japan. Same comments about South Korea.

Where was Regan or Bush regulating the Chinese demolition of the US economy flooding it with cheap inferior goods like an economic cancer putting quality production businesses out of work?

Greed. Pure and simple. When people are fueled by greed they self destruct. For an economy to work it needs to be balanced-to balance its inescapable you need some government regulation-not so much as to stifle creativity and competition but enough to prevent predatory pricing and unethical speculation based on insider trading or captive markets.

So no this is not a matter of socialist or capitalist-its a bit of both. For a country to have a strong economy it must strike a balance between too much and too little government involvement. In the US there is this knee jerk reaction that ANY government intervention is bad.

Greeks by nature are incompetent when it comes to finances. Always have been. This is why their governments have collapsed and they swing back and forth from facists to socialists.

But Greece is just a minor player and an early warning sign. Many more nations have serious problems including Turkey, Spain, France, Ireland, Belgium, Portugal in Europe and most probably the US, UK and without a doubt Japan.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Rue

[Sir Bandelot]

Free market economy has collapsed precisely because without regulation to enforce the markets from being monopolized by a few, it has been.

Reagonomics proved they never worked. There of course was no trickle down effect but the exact opposite, the pooling of revenues into the hands of a few monoplies while record numbers of bankruptcies then took place.

The corupt lobby groups in Washington enabled Japan to corner the market on auto trade with unfair trade restrictions on the U.S. Americans could not trade cars in Japan except on a limited basis but Japan flooded the US markets and why-because this was the price the US paid for naval presence in Japan. Same comments about South Korea.

Where was Regan or Bush regulating the Chinese demolition of the US economy flooding it with cheap inferior goods like an economic cancer putting quality production businesses out of work?

Greed. Pure and simple.

But Greece is just a minor player and an early warning sign. Many more nations have serious problems including Turkey, Spain, France, Ireland, Belgium, Portugal in Europe and most probably the US, UK and without a doubt Japan.

Good post. It's like one sane and truthful voice in an otherwise confused wilderness.

[Remiel]

Good to have you back and starting to post a little more often, Rue. I hope it is a trend, .

[fellowtraveller]

The author of Greece's dilemma are the Greeks. No one else.

Pretty much. They saw the golden pony of the EU and climbed aboard, big mistake for the EU. In the past, Greek students would take to the streets, a few cops and a few kids would die, and the govt would back down. Not this time, there is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide, the purse is empty and the purse itself boiled for soup.

Far too few people pay taxes in Greece, yet they have been able to sustain the pretence of financial viability long past when they should have been denied any credit anywhere, as happened in New Zealand in the 1980s for example. But NZ did not have France or Germany backstopping them. Neither will Greece, this time and they'll sink on their own.

Greece will inevitably default, leave the EU, reintroduce the drachma and walk away from the whole mess and leave their former allies in the EU reeling and holding the bag. Of course, the Greek economy will be utterly shattered and ordinary Greeks will suffer mightily for decades, while of course scapegoating bankers, IMF, UN, EU, Amerikkka, anybody but themselves. All this will come to pass, the real question is will it take down the EU too?

The grand experiment of the EU is looking really tattered and unsustainable right now.

Edited July 20, 2011 by fellowtraveller