Do religious people have a right to push their faith at others?

[bloodyminded]

If I may foolishly revive a debate that seems to have died off...

Take these two statements:

1) I lack belief in a god.

2) There is no god.

It appears to me that the defenders of atheism in this thread are arguing that atheism is 1, while plenty of people who call themselves atheists are in fact 2. Calling them atheists may be something of a misnomer, however. They might be more properly called anti-theists.

Furthermore, I am not sure how you would argue that someone ought to have a lack of belief. So if someone is telling you that everyone should be an atheist, chances are their arguments will in fact reveal them as anti-theists.

I prefer Bertrand Russell's houghts on the matter; technically, he was agnostic; but for all intents and purposes, he was an atheist.

Many atheists are, in fact, both at the same time, which is (again) technically a slight contradiction, but is really based on accepting the notion that there's so much we don't know.

Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.

[betsy]

"If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!"

Talk is cheap. What are you doing about it?

That question doesn't apply unless Native people want to be treated like toddlers and babysat all throughout their lives...which is actually quite demeaning and un-dignified.

As far as I know we are already doing something about it! Let's not get into the details of finances and all the tax breaks and aids, not to mention the effort to install and keep the identity of the Native Indian people, and the apology that was given at last!

My question is: what are you (the native Indian people) doing about helping yourselves?

Whining about the residential school atrocity does not deliver that kind of emotional impact anymore simply because everyone knows something was and is still being done to make up for that atrocity....and that atrocity pales when it's compared to the level of atrocities that the Jewish people have endured 60-70 years ago.

Speaking of the Jewish people, I think the native Indians should get inspiration from them.

The Jews experienced getting rounded up - not to be forcefully assimilated into society - but to get, annihilated!

As far as I know, I don't hear about Jews going on pointing accusing fingers at Germany (and all the other countries that capitulated and collaborated with Hitler) every opportunity they have, whining on about how they got abused, tortured and brought to near-extinction! They don't demand for help or support, and they don't keep blaming the guilty parties at every turn!

Instead, after only 60 - 70 years.....look at the Jews now! Do they still live in ghettos? They managed to get right back on track and become successful. Do you hear of their youth committing suicides?

Why are Native youths committing suicides at a large percentage???

You think piling on these incessant lamentations and hard-done-by and always-a-victim "philosophy" doesn't do any damage psychologically?

I feel sorry that you had to go through that atrocity 50 years ago.

But right now, I feel so sorry for the Native youth who are "forced" to look up to their "oppressors" for optimism and support....because there seems to be nothing positive coming from their own people!

If the Jews, as a people, managed to get where they are now after facing that horrible atrocity 60 years ago.....the native Indians should be asked this question: What about you?

Stop digging up bones of despair. You only depress your own people. Most of the problems you face now are also being faced by most regular folks, regardless of color or religion!

You got an advantage though.....you don't get taxed to death!

I say....quit whining, more positive action. Inspire your children. EDUCATION....not depression. Take advantage of what's given to you and turn yourselves around!

Ask the Jews!

Edited July 28, 2011 by betsy

[Chippewa]

40-50 years ago in Canada.

Exactly!

All that angst....all that heavy weight still being lugged around on weary shoulders - worse, being shifted on to yet younger shoulders like a relay torch. What a burden to pass on to the younger generations. It only generates more resentment, more anger, more angst.....that only weakens instead of uplift.

For some of us...it's like watching replays of the same movie, or listening to the same oldie several times. It's lost its relevance....one gets tired of it.....so its full meaning and significance - what we should avoid from happening again - start sounding like the same tired dialogue from a cheesy soap, the drama is diluted and gets replaced with eye-rolling!

And for what??? Something that happened 40 to 50 years ago.

So people and society 40-50 years go messed up big time. I'm not denying that a grievous atrocity was done to the native Indians. It was an atrocity. A black mark on our history.

One that shouldn't ever happen again!

But it's all history now.

Don't you think it's about time to bury that hatchet? No offense intended.

Start looking towards the future with optimism - for the sake of the younger generation.

If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!

Something that happened 40 years ago, is not something you forget overnight. You have to remember that these children were abducted by the Churchs and Canadian Government, from this the parents never learned how to love, hug, nurture, pass on traditions, and be apart of a community and family setting. How are going to tell a grown man or women to forget that they were raped, tortured, and abducted without the guilty partys ever being prosocuted or charged. This stuff lives in there minds like it happened yesterday.

I would like to see how your kids would handle being torchured, raped, witness murder, and being abducted from there parents, with losing your childhood to a foreign religion. Then 40 years after, people like me can say, that was so long ago, so forget about it, and forget about what happened. Just like you are telling me.

[WIP]

If I may foolishly revive a debate that seems to have died off...

Take these two statements:

1) I lack belief in a god.

2) There is no god.

It appears to me that the defenders of atheism in this thread are arguing that atheism is 1, while plenty of people who call themselves atheists are in fact 2. Calling them atheists may be something of a misnomer, however. They might be more properly called anti-theists.

Furthermore, I am not sure how you would argue that someone ought to have a lack of belief. So if someone is telling you that everyone should be an atheist, chances are their arguments will in fact reveal them as anti-theists.

There is a major flaw in your definitions here: you are conflating strong or positive atheism with antitheism. An antitheist goes beyond the debate over the existence of a conscious creator of the Universe, to propose that the belief in such a creator, and the belief in supernatural forces, and forming dogmas and ethical systems based on those beliefs are harmful to the individual and to society.

I can be a strong or positive atheist, since from what I've learned about our Universe and nature, directly conflicts with the notions that the Universe is intelligently designed, or that life has been designed by a creator who is concerned for the wellbeing and future of living organisms. That said; I am not an anti-theist, because I believe everyone has to come to terms and make sense of their own existence in whatever way makes sense to them and provides meaning and purpose in life. The only demands I make on organized religion is that it shifts away from the in-group dogma of only valuing the "saved" members of their creed, and shows concern for global issues that threaten the entire World. For instance, if the Catholic Church would stop the "sanctity of life" bullshit and stop road-blocking birth control, and population reduction strategies, I would have a lot more respect for the Church leadership!

You are correct in your assumption that aggressive antitheism advocated by loud atheist spokesmen like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris, is a doppleganger of belligerent religious fundamentalism; because of their faith-based assumption that everyone should think alike, and will be happier once they are freed from the shackles of religion. The antitheist is stuck in the same boat as the fundamentalist, because they are classifying people as worthy and unworthy based solely on their metaphysical beliefs.

Until recent years, I would have said that, at least there is no greater harm created by the antitheist; but, since so many have found a way to follow principles of the Enlightenment straight to loudly supporting Neoconservative foreign policies, I'm not so sure that there is no harm in being regarded as an inferior by an anti-theist leader.

[WIP]

That question doesn't apply unless Native people want to be treated like toddlers and babysat all throughout their lives...which is actually quite demeaning and un-dignified.

As far as I know we are already doing something about it! Let's not get into the details of finances and all the tax breaks and aids, not to mention the effort to install and keep the identity of the Native Indian people, and the apology that was given at last!

My question is: what are you (the native Indian people) doing about helping yourselves?

I was wondering when you would get around to the 'pull themselves up by their own bootstraps' conservative argument! Besides your religious fundamentalist blinders, the other problem is your dedication to conservative "strict father" morality that permeates conservative thinking. Conservatives are blind to the reality that some people...a lot of people right now...might be poor for reasons outside of their immediate control - especially in an economic system that is increasingly controlled by the rich and powerful few. It needs to be said again that conservative and libertarian dogma is not supported by the bulk of the scriptures that were written in the Old or the New Testaments. A Christian who wants to be a libertarian conservative has to do a lot of cherry-picking to find stuff to support their economic theology.

Whining about the residential school atrocity does not deliver that kind of emotional impact anymore simply because everyone knows something was and is still being done to make up for that atrocity....and that atrocity pales when it's compared to the level of atrocities that the Jewish people have endured 60-70 years ago.

Except that the Jews had one thing that aboriginal communities here did not have - MONEY!

I suppose it never occurred to you that fate handed the Jews a very important gift during the centuries of persecutions and attempted exterminations by Christians in Europe - Christians were prevented from engaging in modern banking practices by the Church, because of the prohibitions against usury. And this allowed the non-Christians to step in and fill the void...and the Jews did not lose their advantage in the world of banking and finance once it was handed to them on a silver platter. And that ought to tell you something about how ingrained social norms are when entire groups of people either gain an advantage, or are set at a disadvantage in the past.

Speaking of the Jewish people, I think the native Indians should get inspiration from them.

The Jews experienced getting rounded up - not to be forcefully assimilated into society - but to get, annihilated!

As far as I know, I don't hear about Jews going on pointing accusing fingers at Germany (and all the other countries that capitulated and collaborated with Hitler) every opportunity they have, whining on about how they got abused, tortured and brought to near-extinction! They don't demand for help or support, and they don't keep blaming the guilty parties at every turn!

Instead, after only 60 - 70 years.....look at the Jews now! Do they still live in ghettos? They managed to get right back on track and become successful. Do you hear of their youth committing suicides?

Yes, speaking of the Jewish people, have you been totally clueless regarding the long history of Nazi-hunting and Nazi holocaust trials? There are still investigations ongoing, even though very few of the accused are still alive. Just yesterday I learned from a CBC Radio show about a movie being made regarding one of the most shocking events in Nazi-occupied France - where French police rounded up more than 9000 women and children and crowded them into a tiny velodrome cycling track for several days, until the survivors were deported to concentration camps in Germany. There are a few old and frail former French police who are among the accused and awaiting trial....so don't tell us how the Jews just forgot all about the Holocaust and let bygones be bygones....bad example!

And when it comes to monetary compensation - the former government of West Germany had to pay financial compensation to Israel, and in the most recent news article I could find on the subject, the German Government is fighting with Israel regarding new claims:

12/17/2007 Holocaust Compensation RowGermany Refuses to Negotiate with Israel over New Claims another bad example that refutes your premise.

I say....quit whining, more positive action. Inspire your children. EDUCATION....not depression. Take advantage of what's given to you and turn yourselves around!

Ask the Jews!

YOur power-of-positive-thinking speech would be all fine and dandy if it wasn't for the other built-in premise that the larger society has a moral obligation to do something about some of the isolated, broken communities that do not even have safe drinking water and are living below most third world living standards.

[pinko]

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/crime-punishment-none-of-this-is-new-reporters-says-of-flds-sect/?hpt=ac_mid

[CANADIEN]

I was wondering when you would get around to the 'pull themselves up by their own bootstraps' conservative argument! Besides your religious fundamentalist blinders, the other problem is your dedication to conservative "strict father" morality that permeates conservative thinking. Conservatives are blind to the reality that some people...a lot of people right now...might be poor for reasons outside of their immediate control - especially in an economic system that is increasingly controlled by the rich and powerful few. It needs to be said again that conservative and libertarian dogma is not supported by the bulk of the scriptures that were written in the Old or the New Testaments. A Christian who wants to be a libertarian conservative has to do a lot of cherry-picking to find stuff to support their economic theology.

Except that the Jews had one thing that aboriginal communities here did not have - MONEY!

I suppose it never occurred to you that fate handed the Jews a very important gift during the centuries of persecutions and attempted exterminations by Christians in Europe - Christians were prevented from engaging in modern banking practices by the Church, because of the prohibitions against usury. And this allowed the non-Christians to step in and fill the void...and the Jews did not lose their advantage in the world of banking and finance once it was handed to them on a silver platter. And that ought to tell you something about how ingrained social norms are when entire groups of people either gain an advantage, or are set at a disadvantage in the past.

Yes, speaking of the Jewish people, have you been totally clueless regarding the long history of Nazi-hunting and Nazi holocaust trials? There are still investigations ongoing, even though very few of the accused are still alive. Just yesterday I learned from a CBC Radio show about a movie being made regarding one of the most shocking events in Nazi-occupied France - where French police rounded up more than 9000 women and children and crowded them into a tiny velodrome cycling track for several days, until the survivors were deported to concentration camps in Germany. There are a few old and frail former French police who are among the accused and awaiting trial....so don't tell us how the Jews just forgot all about the Holocaust and let bygones be bygones....bad example!

And when it comes to monetary compensation - the former government of West Germany had to pay financial compensation to Israel, and in the most recent news article I could find on the subject, the German Government is fighting with Israel regarding new claims:

12/17/2007 Holocaust Compensation RowGermany Refuses to Negotiate with Israel over New Claims another bad example that refutes your premise.

YOur power-of-positive-thinking speech would be all fine and dandy if it wasn't for the other built-in premise that the larger society has a moral obligation to do something about some of the isolated, broken communities that do not even have safe drinking water and are living below most third world living standards.

Let's not forget that the "power of positive thinking" speech barely hides the "I don't care what happens to you" theme. So Christian it is...

But I must admire the "how dare you point out that there was an attempt at your identity... The Jews were rounded up for extermination" part of the rant. I was not aware there was a scale of what atrocities warranted attention. The Holocaust is indeed something unique in the history of human cruelty towards humans. It does not make the suffering of those who suffer other atrocities less painful or less devastating.

[Bonam]

Where did not (edit: this should have been " you ") get the idea that I was talking about a mythical sky fairy, or any notion that makes sense out of this thoughtless hyperbole? You are buried deep in the box, man.

Which part do you disagree with? That I don't call the mystical sky fairy by some more respectful name like "god"? I still find it funny. People in this thread continue to talk about "atheists" and "agnostics" as if these are some kind of rare and hard to understand phenomena. Trying to carefully classify the differences between the two. The reality is there are millions of each, and most who self-define either way don't much care about the technical differences being discussed here. What matters is that neither believe in a supernatural bearded dude who controls everything, and don't shape their behavior around such a belief.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Bonam

[DogOnPorch]

Hurry...we'll be late for the goat sacrifice to Zeus. You don't want to piss that feller off.

[Remiel]

Which part do you disagree with? That I don't call the mystical sky fairy by some more respectful name like "god"? I still find it funny. People in this thread continue to talk about "atheists" and "agnostics" as if these are some kind of rare and hard to understand phenomena. Trying to carefully classify the differences between the two. The reality is there are millions of each, and most who self-define either way don't much care about the technical differences being discussed here. What matters is that neither believe in a supernatural bearded dude who controls everything, and don't shape their behavior around such a belief.

I disagree with the assumption that " divine " or " god " must refer to anything that broadly resembles the " mystical sky fairies " venerated by religions.

[Bonam]

I disagree with the assumption that " divine " or " god " must refer to anything that broadly resembles the " mystical sky fairies " venerated by religions.

God is generally believed in by people who follow religions. Those people picture god exactly as I described. Their definition of god is the default one, from my perspective, when discussing god. Other supernatural definitions of god, like some nonlocalized driving/guiding force of the universe, or as the personification of the universe, as some universal intelligence, as an uncaused cause, etc, are no more defensible.

On the other hand, if you simply define god as any entity with power and intelligence vastly beyond our own, then sure, such entities might exist, and likely humankind itself will be comprised of such entities in a century or two. Indeed, the powers that we have gained through the use of technology are already equal to or even beyond most of the powers that the ancient Greeks or many other civilizations ascribed to their gods. What are Zeus' lightning bolts compared to this or this?

Edited July 29, 2011 by Bonam

[Remiel]

Indeed, the powers that we have gained through the use of technology are already equal to or even beyond most of the powers that the ancient Greeks or many other civilizations ascribed to their gods. What are Zeus' lightning bolts compared to this or this?

What is that second picture?

[Bonam]

What is that second picture?

That's the Z-machine at Sandia National Labs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine

The Z machine is the largest X-ray generator in the world and is designed to test materials in conditions of extreme temperature and pressure. Operated by Sandia National Laboratories, it gathers data to aid in computer modeling of nuclear weapons. The Z machine is located at Sandia's main site in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[Remiel]

That's the Z-machine at Sandia National Labs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine

Well, it is certainly pretty when it is turned on.

[Bonam]

Well, it is certainly pretty when it is turned on.

Just one of many modern wonders that few people know about.

[WIP]

God is generally believed in by people who follow religions. Those people picture god exactly as I described.

Good. Now tell me what those people are feeling when they describe their relationship with God or some sort of creator? And this should serve as a reason why an analytical approach to religious belief is stupid and has no value. This is a whole different language that some people feel they need, while some of us don't see a use for it; but one thing it doesn't do is translate into nuts and bolts terminology to be analyzed.

Their definition of god is the default one, from my perspective, when discussing god. Other supernatural definitions of god, like some nonlocalized driving/guiding force of the universe, or as the personification of the universe, as some universal intelligence, as an uncaused cause, etc, are no more defensible.

Defensible for what? This is about how people make sense of the world, and a lot of people...the vast majority...go with their instincts or subjective feelings that the Universe is a purposeful creation, which has a creator that is either separate from, or is an immanent part of the creation itself.

[cybercoma]

Something that happened 40 years ago, is not something you forget overnight. You have to remember that these children were abducted by the Churchs and Canadian Government, from this the parents never learned how to love, hug, nurture, pass on traditions, and be apart of a community and family setting. How are going to tell a grown man or women to forget that they were raped, tortured, and abducted without the guilty partys ever being prosocuted or charged. This stuff lives in there minds like it happened yesterday.

I would like to see how your kids would handle being torchured, raped, witness murder, and being abducted from there parents, with losing your childhood to a foreign religion. Then 40 years after, people like me can say, that was so long ago, so forget about it, and forget about what happened. Just like you are telling me.

It's too bad she's just going to ignore this.

[bloodyminded]

Defensible for what? This is about how people make sense of the world, and a lot of people...the vast majority...go with their instincts or subjective feelings that the Universe is a purposeful creation, which has a creator that is either separate from, or is an immanent part of the creation itself.

Also, all sorts of non-religious beliefs are closely related to this aspect of human thought.

[WIP]

Also, all sorts of non-religious beliefs are closely related to this aspect of human thought.

Yes, the problem with the new atheist dogma that science and new knowledge will banish religion and supernatural beliefs is that they are almost certainly unscientific in the first place. Richard Dawkins has lost most of his supporters that tried to develop a theory of memes to explain the propagation of these ideas, and the research by cognitive psychologists like

and Deborah Kelemen on how supernatural beliefs likely form in childhood, and stay with many people through adulthood, would indicate that any movement trying to stamp out supernatural thinking, or anything similar that is viewed as erroneous is futile, and doomed to failure.

[betsy]

Something that happened 40 years ago, is not something you forget overnight.

I'm not saying that you should forget what happened to your people 40 years ago. In fact, you shouldn't forget. Ever! To try to ensure that it never happens again.

I give the example of the Jews for they have gone through hell! They don't forget what happened. But they don't dwell and wallow in despair.

Why are they so wealthy and prosperous? It's part of their resolve not to let that atrocity happen again. That they can stand independently without having to depend on anyone.

Can you blame them?

You have to remember that these children were abducted by the Churchs and Canadian Government,

The goal might have been well-meaning, but the ways they tried to come to it practically stomped on the rights of the Native Indians....and it did turn out to be an atrocity!

from this the parents never learned how to love, hug, nurture,pass on traditions, and be apart of a community and family setting.

The children that were ripped from parents 40 years ago are now parents themselves....you must mean these parents. Yes, they've experienced trauma of varying degrees (some went through hell during their childhood).

However, they need help to cope and heal. Counselling.....that should first and foremost come from your elders and your own people. They need to heal so they can start being loving and nurturing parents to their children. A wound will never heal if you keep pulling on the scab.

People, regardless of color or creed, who have been victimized and traumatized go through some counselling if they cannot cope and heal by themselves. I say "by themselves," for yes indeed, there are those who can deal and get over atrocities and move on. People have been doing so from the biginning...way way back before we got psychologists and therapists and looking at where we are now, people from the past seemed to have done a great job.

How are going to tell a grown man or women to forget that they were raped, tortured, and abducted without the guilty partys ever being prosocuted or charged. This stuff lives in there minds like it happened yesterday.

Same as one tells a rape victim or the parents of a murdered child that there are no investigative leads and the case(s) remain unsolved.

Christians, with the grace of God, will know how to cope.

I am not trying to diminish your pain....but it's up to you if you want to spend the rest of your life stuck in those hellish years, or you do something positive about it so you can reclaim your life and live out your remaining years.

After all, who suffers if you stay in a rut? Surely not the guilty parties that ought to have been prosecuted.

So why do you perpetuate the pain?

I would like to see how your kids would handle being torchured, raped, witness murder, and being abducted from there parents, with losing your childhood to a foreign religion.

Recently there was news about an elderly couple from BC who were doing Christian mission work in Africa.

The husband was attacked and beaten to a pulp outside their home and his elderly wife was tortured and gang-raped. Both were left for dead. The couple were flown back to BC, and both kept reiterating that they've forgiven their tormentors. They went back to Africa and continued their mission work.

About 7 years ago, a Christian farmer in Canada lost all his 9 children and pregnant wife in a fire. I remember his story for the photo of him holding his youngest's coffing was so heart-wrenching. I couldn't help but imagine his pain. From a noisy brood that must've greeted him everytime he came home.....the lively dinner table....the bustle of daily life....to a sudden deafening quiet. The grieving farmer gave a statement through his relative: That his faith in God has not lessened. In fact, it got stronger....for it is his faith in God that keeps him strong.

This man inspired me to seek God and renew my faith....to try to know and understand for myself what God wants and how to please Him. Not long after, I accidentally stumbled on to Charles Price talking about faith, and he made reading the Bible seem so easy....that I started reading it too.

I pray that God grant me the same courage and the same strength in the face of calamities and turmoil, that my faith never falters come what may.

And I pray that you and your people may find that inner peace and look to the future with optimism.

Then 40 years after, people like me can say, that was so long ago, so forget about it, and forget about what happened. Just like you are telling me.

No. After 50 years, I'm telling you to replace anger and angst with something positive. Let it heal. For the sake of your children. And your people.

Edited July 31, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

I was wondering when you would get around to the 'pull themselves up by their own bootstraps' conservative argument! Besides your religious fundamentalist blinders, the other problem is your dedication to conservative "strict father" morality that permeates conservative thinking.

Let me show that it’s actually you who has the blinders on and has a problem.

HUGE problem. Especially about the thinking part.

At least, conservative thinking is....thinking.

Conservatives are blind to the reality that some people...a lot of people right now...might be poor for reasons outside of their immediate control - especially in an economic system that is increasingly controlled by the rich and powerful few.

No, no, no. You got that backward and upside down. I boldened the key words of your statement. I am not blind to the reality that reasons for poverty maybe outside of one’s immediate control. Of course, what exactly do you mean by “poverty?” It’s relative, isn’t it? I know there are children all over Canada – regardless of color – who don’t even get to eat 3 square meals a day.

So what do you suggest? All poor people line up along the sidewalk and hope to be thrown a scrap by the few rich and powerful ones?

Just accept it as it is and leave it at that? Shrivel and die???

Pray tell, what’s so wrong about “pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps?”

If no one would....wouldn’t you try do it yourselves?

Being an evolutionist, haven’t you heard of the word, ADAPTATION?

For the life of me, with a mind frame like yours....how did you even think for a moment you’d make it from a poliwag to a chimp!

...a lot of people right now...might be poor for reasons outside of their immediate control - especially in an economic system that is increasingly controlled by the rich and powerful few.

Or...in the atheistic world: Tough luck.

It needs to be said again that conservative and libertarian dogma is not supported by the bulk of the scriptures that were written in the Old or the New Testaments. A Christian who wants to be a libertarian conservative has to do a lot of cherry-picking to find stuff to support their economic theology.

Cite an example. Support your little stories.

Anyway, if you want to be a libertarian conservative you’d have to do a lot of mind-bending at practically every level. A libertarian is someone who believes in total free will of the individual and a conservative is someone who resists change, so they’re diametrically opposed in most ways. Libertarianism and conservativism are very mundane concepts. You’re not talking here about theological matters of free will, or about conservativism in the generally accepted sense of religious fundamentalism, are you? It seems to me like a contradiction in terms, at whatever mundane or super-mundane level.

Another one of your mooooooo?

So, what do you mean by libertarian conservative? Define that.

Except that the Jews had one thing that aboriginal communities here did not have - MONEY!

Jews were stripped of their wealth and properties (not to mention their dignities, and for millions – their lives). A lot of them had to start from scratch!

It didn’t take them long to get to where they are now!

I suppose it never occurred to you that fate handed the Jews a very important gift during the centuries of persecutions and attempted exterminations by Christians in Europe –

Correction. Not just mere centuries. We’re talking MILLENIA!

Read the OT in full! Don't cherry-pick on the verses. And most importantly, try to understand it.

Christians were prevented from engaging in modern banking practices by the Church, because of the prohibitions against usury. And this allowed the non-Christians to step in and fill the void...and the Jews did not lose their advantage in the world of banking and finance once it was handed to them on a silver platter.

In my Christian world, it’s not so surprising that Jews made a come back. They’ll always make a comeback.

And that ought to tell you something about how ingrained social norms are when entire groups of people either gain an advantage, or are set at a disadvantage in the past.

In your evolutionist world, isn’t that survival of the fittest?

Yes, speaking of the Jewish people, have you been totally clueless regarding the long history of Nazi-hunting and Nazi holocaust trials? There are still investigations ongoing, even though very few of the accused are still alive.

Of course there is still Nazi-hunting and Holocaust trials. Why shouldn’t there be?

If they’ve got witnesses and evidences, why shouldn’t these criminals be brought to justice?

First Nations should do the same to those who’d committed crimes against them if they’ve got witnesses or evidences!

Just yesterday I learned from a CBC Radio show about a movie being made regarding one of the most shocking events in Nazi-occupied France - where French police rounded up more than 9000 women and children and crowded them into a tiny velodrome cycling track for several days, until the survivors were deported to concentration camps in Germany. There are a few old and frail former French police who are among the accused and awaiting trial...

What’s being old and frail got to do with this? It’s the magnitude of the crime. We’re talking about an organized, systematic mass killings with the determined intent to annihilate an entire race. We’re talking EXTINCTION!

If you cannot grasp the full meaning of that word, tap into your sensitivity and righteous indignation over the possible extinction of your endangered yet-another cousin, the kookabookas in the Bora-Bora.

so don't tell us how the Jews just forgot all about the Holocaust and let bygones be bygones....bad example!

I didn’t say Jews forgot all about the Holocaust.

And when it comes to monetary compensation - the former government of West Germany had to pay financial compensation to Israel, and in the most recent news article I could find on the subject, the German Government is fighting with Israel regarding new claims:

12/17/2007 Holocaust Compensation RowGermany Refuses to Negotiate with Israel over New Claims another bad example that refutes your premise.

There are legal hearings and negotiations on claims made by the Jews....so? What's wrong with that? Isn’t this how it is worked in our civilized societies?

Do they wallow in self-pity, anger, and despair....and just wring their hands, blaming their current lot on everyone who did them wrong? Do they throw a hissy fit and go on a rampage?

Didn't they...."pull themselves up by their bootstraps," and proceeded to move forward with a new determination to be strong as a people, never again be subjected to that same horror?

You’ve cherry-picked quoting my statement and conveniently excluded this part:

betsy:

As far as I know we are already doing something about it! Let's not get into the details of finances and all the tax breaks and aids, not to mention the effort to install and keep the identity of the Native Indian people, and the apology that was given at last!

There are hearings on First Nations’ claims.

YOur power-of-positive-thinking speech would be all fine and dandy if it wasn't for the other built-in premise that the larger society has a moral obligation to do something about some of the isolated, broken communities that do not even have safe drinking water and are living below most third world living standards.

Somebody didn’t do their job right in Walkerton, and people died drinking the water.

That negligence took a while, and claimed lives before the public heard of it. Then something got done about it.

As you’ve said, these are isolated and broken communities...something that easily fell through the cracks. Perhaps, now that it’s become a high profile case something will be done about it. Unfortunately, that’s how it is for some things to get noticed....you gotta get it out through the media. Something’s wrong with our system.

And by the way, what are you doing about it?

But going back to your statement:

WIP

YOur power-of-positive-thinking speech would be all fine and dandy if it wasn't for the other built-in premise that the larger society has a moral obligation to do something about…

There is something terribly wrong when a people wallow in angst/anger and despair...and willfully pass this on to the children.

To be told that: the boogeyman who takes away children from parents is alive and well,

that everyone is prejudiced against you,

that no one respects you,

that they’re out to get you,

they’re out to cheat you what they owe you,

that you’re not worth anything to anyone out there,

that you're never going to measure up simply because of the color of your skin

that you’re having a hard time simply because of the color of your skin..etc.,

That, is, indoctrination.

Same as Christians indoctrinate their children about Christ, or Muslims indoctrinate about Allah, or Jihadists indoctrinate about martyrdom and the 75 virgins.

It amazes me how you criticize Christianity for its indoctrination, which some even label as abuse....and yet at the same time so supportive of the kind of indoctrination - and abuse - that’s obviously producing some deadly results.

And you wonder why a large percentage of their youth are thinking they're better off dead?

Talk about being blind!

This only lend further support that not only are you so confused, but that you are so achingly ignorant as well.

Edited August 2, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Which part do you disagree with? That I don't call the mystical sky fairy by some more respectful name like "god"? I still find it funny.

I also find it funny. Seen that somewhere.

Anyway, since you imply to claim it so personally "your" call, is there no other disrespectful name you could come up with other than "mystical sky fairy?"

That sounds so very....Pie in the Sky.

And my goodness! What's with all this obsession with the sky, wings and flying??? Like the....Flying Spaghetti Monster.

God and gods and dieties come in all shapes and forms, you know. Not everyone flies or live in the sky.

We got one for the Neo-Darwinists' belief: The FROG PRINCE.

Yeah...I know it's from a fairy tale. But like Cinderella's shoe, it fits.

Edited August 1, 2011 by betsy

[Chippewa]

Here is a few stories of faith being pushed onto others.

Howard Wanna, 60, is an enrolled member of the Sisseton Wahpeton Oyate, whose homeland straddles North and South Dakota. He has terminal lung cancer and recently celebrated what doctors tell him will be his last birthday.

Wanna and several siblings entered Tekakwitha Orphanage, in Sisseton, South Dakota, around 1956. Despite the institution’s name, there were few orphans among the approximately 150 American Indian children housed there at any one time. Some had been taken from their parents for reasons that were not fully; others, like the Wanna children, were placed there by desperately poor parents who believed the priests and nuns they revered would care for and educate their offspring.

When Wanna lived at Tekakwitha, the wooded, estate-like complex included a Southwest Mission-style church; the Papoose House, a nursery for children ranging in age from newborns to five-year-olds; dormitories for boys and girls aged 6 to early teens, with nuns and priests living upstairs; and a separate house for the priest in charge, John Pohlen.

Here is Wanna’s story:

“When I first arrived at Tekakwitha at age four or five, the nuns and priests seemed welcoming, as though they wanted me to think of the place as my home. This friendliness went on for several weeks. Then one day, Father Pohlen came to the Papoose House, where I was living, and took me by the hand. He led me to the church, where we went behind the altar to a little room that had nothing in it but a chair.

“Father Pohlen sat me down, unzipped his pants, took his penis out, and began to wipe it on my face and lips. I was terrified. I didn’t know what was happening. In later sessions, sometimes behind the altar and sometimes at his house, suddenly I’d be choking and something would be running out of my mouth. He’d also turn me around and rape me, hurting me badly as he used his hands to grip my hair, neck, or shoulders.

“He rotated among about five of us younger boys, which left me with such confused emotions. On days it wasn’t my turn, I was so grateful, yet I felt terrible that one of my little friends was suffering. I also dreaded the fact that my day was coming again soon. Worst of all, I had no one to turn to, not even God, because God’s representative on earth was the one hurting me.

“Soon a nun began to abuse me as well, placing me under her gown and rubbing my little hands between her legs. This was something the nuns did to other children there, too. It was horrifying, not just because of what she was doing but because it was dark and I couldn’t breathe. Other abuse included beating us with sticks, hoses, and even a metal shovel.

“The cruelty was strangely inventive. At bath time, we’d line up, a line of naked girls and a line of naked boys, which was embarrassing to begin with. We’d take turns jumping into a laundry tub and being scrubbed—scratch, scratch, scratch—with a stiff brush you’d use for floors. We’d then hop out of the tub with scrapes all over our bodies.

“Once, after I tried to run away, I had to wear a dress for a while, and when we went outdoors I was tied to a tree.

“Tekakwitha was a very quiet place. You’d think with all those children, there’d be noise and laughing. But so many of us were being abused and simply didn’t talk. We were too frightened. It was like a horror movie in which people walk by each other but can’t communicate.

“As the years went by, my abuse lessened, probably because I wasn’t a cute little toy anymore, but also because I became more outspoken. I remember being told I was a smart-ass. When I was 8 or 9—we had no sense of time, because at Tekakwitha there were no markers, like birthday celebrations—my mother got wind of what was going on and came and ranted and raged. I heard they told her something like, ‘Take the little bastards,’ and we left.

“My adulthood was one hell of a struggle. But I fought through my failures and obstacles, went to college, and owned a restaurant and a construction company.

“[i believe] the Church caused the drinking and other problems former students experience. As a result, the tribe must sponsor chemical-dependency, suicide-prevention, anger-management, and many other programs, which is an enormous economic burden. At Sisseton Wahpeton, we just had three suicides, all youngsters in their 20s, and this happens frequently. Why? It’s the result of how we elders were treated as children—an effect that continues through the generations.

“I often wonder how so many pedophiles ended up at Native American schools. Father Pohlen was not only a pervert; he also hired the worst of the worst, which meant none of the Tekakwitha staff would protect us from the others. How did he find them? Is there someone in the Church you can call to request problem priests and nuns? Was there a dual plan to hurt Native Americans while taking care of the pedophiles? Was this genocide? It’s so confusing, but it’s also just plain evil.

“When the orphanage was demolished in 2010 [because of Environmental Protection Act issues], my relatives and I went to watch. Suddenly, during the demolition, we saw three eagles circling overhead, rising up and flying down low repeatedly for about 45 minutes. They had come to take home the spirits of the children. It was so awesome.

“I have sued the Church over my abuse, but because of my cancer I’m going to die with this on my mind, well before any chance of receiving justice. The people we looked up to most as children failed us. God’s servants blocked our power and took away our spirits. But we’ll get ’em back. By telling our stories, we’re opening a door, and we’re not going to let it shut until we’re done with them. No amount of compensation can cure us or absolve them, but we want our day in court. We want the public to hear what was happening to many Native American children in this country while non-Native people lived peacefully in their cities and towns and on their farms. Millions don’t know what we went through, and they need a quick history lesson. It’ll be a hard one, but it’s a fact.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1946, when she was just three months old, Mary-Catherine Renville, 65, of the Sisseton Wahpeton Oyate, was taken from her mother for reasons that remain unclear and placed in Tekakwitha Orphanage. After Tekakwitha, which went through junior high, she was sent to a boarding school in Nebraska.

Here is Renville’s story:

“All I remember of my earliest years at Tekakwitha was being hungry and a punishment that consisted of being placed in a dark crawl space. When I was 6, they moved me from the Papoose House for babies to the main building so I could start school. The nuns there would take us to their private quarters and do things to our bodies that even at that young age I knew were not right.

“The next year, a teenaged boy raped me. He said if I told, he’d bring other boys, and they’d all rape me. I was so frightened that I never did say anything.

“When I was 8 or 9, Father Pohlen placed me with a Michigan family. I understood it was a tryout for being adopted by them. I have a memory of being told to go get Vaseline, then returning to the room to find the boys and men in the family waiting for me. This lasted for a summer.

“I didn’t know where to turn or who to tell. Father Pohlen had placed me with the family, so I couldn’t confide in him, and the nuns were so cold—they didn’t care about our feelings and showed us no affection. They wanted our souls and to teach us to fear God. Sometimes they’d whip us, holding us with the left hand while using the right to beat us with a rubber hose. None of the adults in my life ever noticed anything about me: whether I’d sustained injuries because of the rapes or mistreatment or if I was afraid.

“When I was about 10, Father Pohlen placed me with a Spanish-speaking dentist, who wanted to teach me his language so I could speak it once he and his wife adopted me and took me to their country. Instead, he raped me and said he wanted to continue his ‘affair’ with me, though I mustn’t tell his wife. After several weeks, I was returned to the orphanage. Again, I never said anything to Father Pohlen or the nuns, other than that I didn’t want to learn Spanish or live with that man. I’d learned that to protect myself I shouldn’t say much.

“We did have good times. At Christmas, we each received a shoebox full of nuts and candy and oranges and another box with trinkets and a doll. Most of us girls traded the dolls for food. We did that because the Mother Superior used to force us to simulate sex with a large doll before abusing us, so we were scared of dolls. Can you imagine putting the fear of dolls into a child’s mind?

“The Nebraska boarding school where I went to high school subjected us to similar physical violence, though no sexual abuse. We all continually tried to escape. We weren’t trying to get home, because we didn’t know where that was. We were completely disoriented. We just took off and took our chances in the world, hitchhiking down the road. Then they’d find us and bring us back.

“As an adult, I’ve been a traveler. I’ve lived in 14 states, mostly waitressing, because it’s a job you can get quickly. I’d always move on, though. I think I was searching for family. I eventually had three children, who were taken from me or I gave up. I don’t know where my boys are, though I keep in touch with my girl. Now, I’m back living on my reservation, which sometimes feels like a foreign country, though I’m related to half the people here.

“What I want to do is talk about Tekakwitha. They took away our sense of belonging to anyone, our opportunities to develop relationships. They kept us off-balance by sending us here and there without warning. But they could never take away the truth: that what they were doing was wrong. I want everyone to know what happened to us there.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Sherwyn Zephier, 54, drives to his job at Ihanktonwan Community College, in Marty, South Dakota, where he is the adult education director and teaches math, science, English, art history, and other subjects, he passes the derelict buildings of what was St. Paul’s Indian Mission. During the 1960s and 1970s, he was a student at the Catholic-run school, where children were required to board during the nine-month school year, even though many, like Zephier, were from the surrounding community, the Yankton Sioux Tribe.

Here is Zephier’s story:

“The priests’ and nuns’ keys jangled as they walked, so we knew when they were coming. Everyone in the dorm would quiet down, because you never knew what they’d do. Sometimes they’d bring high school students or more priests and brothers to hold our arms and press our bodies against a metal pole in the center of the room. Then they’d beat us with straps and a two-by-four with handles, which they called the ‘board of education.’

“There were also regular whippings at noon. One day, my older brother, Loren, created a commotion at midday so just that once we little ones escaped the whipping. Because we showered together in one large room, we could always see that many of us were bruised black, blue and purple. The beatings were so frequent, we adapted to the pain and got used to living that way.

“The nuns were as vicious as the priests—real brutes. I remember getting caught in the barbed wire around the top of the little boy’s playground. I’d seen Loren go by and had tried to go over the fence to get to him. Once the nuns got me untangled, I got quite a beating. At night, they’d pretend they’d left us, then stand in the dark corners of the dorm room, eerie in their hooded robes.

“The school was essentially a prison, with every door locked and total control of the children. We went in supervised groups from one secured place to another: to lunch, play, church, the dorm, and so on. Even if you managed to get out of a dorm room or classroom, you couldn’t run far, because at the end of each corridor was a locked floor-to-ceiling gate. The windows were covered with bars or chain-link grates, and the campus had barbed wire everywhere—along sidewalks and even around the church itself.

“As children, we didn’t know their policy was to de-Indianize us. We only knew we enjoyed one another’s company and would play games, such as ‘migs,’ or marbles, that involved phrases in our language. Another student would inevitably run and ‘tell Sister,’ and I would get a beating. At the time, they never explained my infraction. Just recently, the reality hit me hard: it was because I had so frequently spoken my language with my playmates. I suddenly understood why those snitches, often from more assimilated families, ‘told’ and why I was punished so often.

“Another aspect of assimilation was taking away ribbon shirts and other culturally related clothes. Every year, I looked forward to wearing clothing my mother spent most of the summer sewing to make me look proud and colorful for school. But once I got there, those items were removed, and instead I wore clothes that were drab and not even mine.

“The child-molesters would come and go, as the Church rotated them among the Indian missions. We children stood by each other as best we could, but for a child, it was a disturbing, sickening place to be. I have often wondered, where did the nuns and priests learn those things?

“My class, 1975, was the last to graduate from St. Paul’s Indian Mission, which then passed to tribal control and became Marty Indian School. At our commencement, a medicine man, Pete Catches, was allowed for the first time to fill his sacred pipe on the altar and pray with us.

“There’s beauty in our traditional ways. There’s honor, honesty—no lies, no judgment, no exaggeration. It’s the true experience of life. There’s no interpreting of someone else’s words, and no one else interpreting your experience. No one can tell you what is good or bad. That’s where the Church confused a lot of our people, conditioning them to think the traditional way of prayer was evil, the devil’s way. And if you didn’t believe them, they’d beat you.

“After I filed my lawsuit against the Church—with the blessings of my most revered supporter and hero, my father—I started talking about my experience to sisters, brothers and cousins who had also attended St. Paul’s. It was a relief to sit with them—to share and to cry. We knew what we experienced was unfathomable to others.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hundreds of thousands of people in North America can't just "Turn the tap off" when dealing with Christianity, and religion in North America.

Nobody has ever went to prison for any of this stuff.

If the Jews can get people charged for warcrimes 60 years after the fact, then I don't see why we can't charge the Pope, Churches, and whoever was involved up on warcrimes and genocide.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/07/south-dakota-boarding-school-survivors-detail-sexual-abuse/

Edited August 1, 2011 by Chippewa

[Chippewa]

So Betsy wants people to just have normal lives, like nothing happened after this sort of trauma. Thinks that its as easy as councilling somebody back to healthy. That is a joke, Betsy you are a joke.

[betsy]

So Betsy wants people to just have normal lives, like nothing happened after this sort of trauma. Thinks that its as easy as councilling somebody back to healthy. That is a joke, Betsy you are a joke.

Yet you don't sound like you're laughing. You're in pain.

You're caught in the middle. Between someone who's pointing it out to you as objectively as she can (even though it may not be what you want to hear)....and another, who commiserates with you, pulling the scab for you, and helping you stoke that fire of anger which is being aimed - not at the humans who did those unspeakable crimes - but straight at the Christian faith.

Hello? Are we getting manipulated all over again?

Getting cheated out of not only monetary compensation but spiritual salvation as well, are we?

Here is a few stories of faith being pushed onto others.

Howard Wanna, 60, is an enrolled member of the Sisseton Wahpeton Oyate, whose homeland straddles North and South Dakota. He has terminal lung cancer and recently celebrated what doctors tell him will be his last birthday.

Wanna and several siblings entered Tekakwitha Orphanage, in Sisseton, South Dakota, around 1956. Despite the institution’s name, there were few orphans among the approximately 150 American Indian children housed there at any one time. Some had been taken from their parents for reasons that were not fully; others, like the Wanna children, were placed there by desperately poor parents who believed the priests and nuns they revered would care for and educate their offspring.

“When I first arrived at Tekakwitha at age four or five, the nuns and priests seemed welcoming, as though they wanted me to think of the place as my home. This friendliness went on for several weeks. Then one day, Father Pohlen came to the Papoose House, where I was living, and took me by the hand. He led me to the church, where we went behind the altar to a little room that had nothing in it but a chair.

“Father Pohlen sat me down, unzipped his pants, took his penis out, and began to wipe it on my face and lips. I was terrified. I didn’t know what was happening. In later sessions, sometimes behind the altar and sometimes at his house, suddenly I’d be choking and something would be running out of my mouth. He’d also turn me around and rape me, hurting me badly as he used his hands to grip my hair, neck, or shoulders.

“He rotated among about five of us younger boys, which left me with such confused emotions. On days it wasn’t my turn, I was so grateful, yet I felt terrible that one of my little friends was suffering. I also dreaded the fact that my day was coming again soon. Worst of all, I had no one to turn to, not even God, because God’s representative on earth was the one hurting me.

(More...)

Pedophiles are usually found holding jobs that give them access to children. Abuse, corruptions of the young usually comes from people of authority!

Why shouldn't the church be an excellent hunting ground? What other places and positions hold as ultimate a power when you present yourself as a "representative" of God?

I closely know of someone - a white fellow - whose parents was befriended by their Pastor.

The Pastor came regularly for dinner. One time, with the permission of the trusting parents, he took the boy (who was 14 at the time) to a ball game in New York. The boy was so excited....what kid wouldn't be? Instead of the ball game, the boy ended up far from home, getting sexually molested.

Chippewa, the stories you posted are nothing new. Yes, they are heartwrenching....but they are the same stories of gaining trust and abuse and betrayal. It's the same modus operandi, but what makes these so disgustingly horrendous is the added fact that to some people....nothing is sacred at all. They will go to great lengths to satiate their perversity. Is it so surprising that a group of like-minded sickos find themselves a perfect little niche where they can do as they please?

In one of the old topics I posted an investigative article about a "cabal" of pedophiles/homosexuals within the Catholic Church. The members of this cabal protect one another.

Btw, the boy in my story grew up drifting from God. His parents stopped going to church - he wasn't told why but he suspect it was because of what happened to him. At one point he accidentally saw the pastor from a distance- an aged man at this time - but he didn't approach the old pastor.

This man eventually found his way back to God, struggled to forgive (and finally did), and found inner peace.

He is now brushing up on Apologetics, his goal is to defend Christianity.

Hundreds of thousands of people in North America can't just "Turn the tap off" when dealing with Christianity, and religion in North America.

The devil surely scored big with these perverts! These sickos - and their abettors and protectors - did seem to have done the devil's work. Just look how they've driven millions of people from God and faith.

The Church is a victim too.

A lot of people unfairly blame God for the sins of humans. Yes it's hard to "turn that tap off"....but after 50 years, surely it's a matter of choice whether you should wrestle with that tap, or continue picking on the scab to keep hurting for the rest of your life.

At the end of the game....it is your life after all. You decide how you'd like to spend it.

Nobody has ever went to prison for any of this stuff.

If the Jews can get people charged for warcrimes 60 years after the fact, then I don't see why we can't charge the Pope, Churches, and whoever was involved up on warcrimes and genocide.

How many powerful heads of huge organizations ever got successfully charged, tried and convicted? Just the recent Murdoch International News scandal, media are saying the top honchos will not see any jail time....they've got their fall guys.

We hear only the horror stories of torture and depravity. Surely not every priest or nun was or is more of a minion of Satan in-disguise.

On the other hand, there are also those nuns and priests and missionaries who'd shown kindness and truly tried to carry out their duties as Christians. How many Native Indians found solace and strength in their Christian faith during those dark days?

Edited August 1, 2011 by betsy