Teacher Union Offers Perks to Teachers Who Campaign Against Tories

MiddleClassCentrist · June 10, 2011

I'd be happy if teachers could give up at least part of their summer to do inservices so they wouldn't disrupt classes at least once a month.

Not unreasonable.

Added convenience to the population with kids under 12, no additional cost to public.

Obviously won't be union accepted unless as a compromise. "Take pay cut OR 5 extra days of work during the summer."

Smallc · June 10, 2011

Not unreasonable.

Added convenience to the population with kids under 12, no additional cost to public.

That's right. I don't really begrudge anyone their vacation, but...12 - 14 weeks is a bit excessive.

Bonam · June 10, 2011

Ridiculous. I can't quite believe that unions are allowed to do something so blatantly partisan. Teachers, and other public sector employees, are supposed to be serving the government and the taxpayers and providing needed services, not serving a political party or against a political party. As if it wasn't bad enough that public sector unions have been taking stances on foreign policy, completely unrelated to their jobs. This takes my disgust with the Ontario teachers union to a whole new level.

Unions should have one mandate and one mandate only, to protect the interests of their members in their contracts with their employers. Political activism (which of course not all union members agree with), especially when paid for by mandatory union dues, should be forbidden.

Michael Hardner · June 10, 2011

This takes my disgust with the Ontario teachers union to a whole new level.

That reminds me of the disgust I felt when Harris used taxpayer money to propagandize against organized labour. That was my money he was using - no choice there on my part.

Michael Hardner · June 10, 2011

That's right. I don't really begrudge anyone their vacation, but...12 - 14 weeks is a bit excessive.

Except that they have to work nights - if they're doing their jobs properly - to prepare lessons. That fact is frequently not mentioned.

Smallc · June 10, 2011

Except that they have to work nights - if they're doing their jobs properly - to prepare lessons. That fact is frequently not mentioned.

I know that they do. At the same time, they only have to work about 6 hours during the day, where most people work 7.5 - 8.5.

guyser · June 10, 2011

Unions should have one mandate and one mandate only, to protect the interests of their members in their contracts with their employers. .

Their contracts are in jeopardy according to them so in effect they aer doing exactly what you suggest.

Michael Hardner · June 10, 2011

I know that they do. At the same time, they only have to work about 6 hours during the day, where most people work 7.5 - 8.5.

Is that in classroom time ? 830-1600 is 7.5 hours on site. Maybe we're quibbling here.

Smallc · June 10, 2011

Is that in classroom time ? 830-1600 is 7.5 hours on site. Maybe we're quibbling here.

Most schools now allow teachers a duty free lunch.

Shwa · June 10, 2011

Ridiculous. I can't quite believe that unions are allowed to do something so blatantly partisan. Teachers, and other public sector employees, are supposed to be serving the government and the taxpayers and providing needed services, not serving a political party or against a political party. As if it wasn't bad enough that public sector unions have been taking stances on foreign policy, completely unrelated to their jobs. This takes my disgust with the Ontario teachers union to a whole new level.

I'd write them a letter and let them know.

Unions should have one mandate and one mandate only, to protect the interests of their members in their contracts with their employers. Political activism (which of course not all union members agree with), especially when paid for by mandatory union dues, should be forbidden.

Of course "protecting the interests of their members" never includes "political activism" for anyone else. Right?

MiddleClassCentrist · June 10, 2011

That's right. I don't really begrudge anyone their vacation, but...12 - 14 weeks is a bit excessive.

It's not really vacation time. A true vacation is being able to arbitrarily book time off of regular work and receive pay for the time missed. Teachers are paid based on class days, unions have fought for that pay to be spread out over the year instead of having teachers worry about budgeting. Which backfires because now it appears as though they are paid for not working (vacation) and lesser minds have a hard time actually understanding how it actually works.

So teacher's get time off from work stoppage (no kids in school) but, they aren't really paid for vacation. They are not allowed to take vacation from work days.

It makes more sense to attack the salary to days worked.

My mother gets 6 weeks off a year as a bank teller.

So lets use 6 weeks above and beyond what people would get.

$43,000 x 52/46 = $48,000 starting equivalent as a higher end teacher.

$75,000 x 52/46 = $84,000 median teacher salary adjusted for getting an additional 6 weeks of work stoppage.

$94,000 x 52/46 = $106,000 maximum teacher salary after upgrade courses and 13 years of experience in Ontario as of Sept 1st, 2011

Median pay equivalent of $84,000? That's really good. And I think it would have to drop significantly before high quality teachers are turned away from the profession.

Edited June 10, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

MiddleClassCentrist · June 10, 2011

Most schools now allow teachers a duty free lunch.

Never heard that one before.

I've heard of teachers requiring 30 minutes of uninterrupted lunch. But that is from the Employer Standards Act.

Smallc · June 10, 2011

I've heard of teachers requiring 30 minutes of uninterrupted lunch. But that is from the Employer Standards Act.

I didn't think that anyone working less than 8 hours legally required an uninterrupted lunch.

Smallc · June 10, 2011

It's not really vacation time.

It's time away from work. Teachers are well compensated and get a great deal of time off work.

MiddleClassCentrist · June 10, 2011

It's time away from work. Teachers are well compensated and get a great deal of time off work.

OK. So when an employer calls an employee to say that the day is going slow and they don't have to come in, that is vacation.

I just want to be clear on the matter.

This means that retail has some of the best vacation time. Just schedule any day off you want and it counts as vacation. You can't beat that!

Also, regarding 30 minutes of uninterupted lunch:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_00e41_e.htm#BK31

20. (1) An employer shall give an employee an eating period of at least 30 minutes at intervals that will result in the employee working no more than five consecutive hours without an eating period. 2000, c. 41, s. 20 (1).

MiddleClassCentrist · June 10, 2011

Except that they have to work nights - if they're doing their jobs properly - to prepare lessons. That fact is frequently not mentioned.

They also don't get overtime for after school programs, or having to stay later for parent teacher night.

You would get that in the private sector.

Smallc · June 10, 2011

They also don't get overtime for after school programs, or having to stay later for parent teacher night.

Often, they get to take time off when they collect enough hours. It works that way in Manitoba. Teachers have too much time off. It's that simple.

BubberMiley · June 11, 2011

Teachers have too much time off. It's that simple.

Then why are they all burned out?

Smallc · June 11, 2011

Then why are they all burned out?

Well, I find the less time I spend working (up to a point), the more tired I feel. Perhaps the two months vacation that they and the students get should be split in half, and shortened somewhat.

BubberMiley · June 11, 2011

You're not factoring in lesson preparation, professional development, marking, extracurricular activities, parental consultations, topic research, and general security guard duties when you determine teachers work only 6 or so hours a day.

That's not to mention that it isn't a paid holiday when they're off.

Smallc · June 11, 2011

You're not factoring in lesson preparation, professional development, marking, extracurricular activities, parental consultations, topic research, and general security guard duties when you determine teachers work only 6 or so hours a day.

I didn't say that they only work 6 hours per day. I've spent a lot of time working in a school, after all. I said that I think teachers, at the end of it, probably work a normal work day....and get 12 - 14 weeks off.

BubberMiley · June 11, 2011

I said that I think teachers, at the end of it, probably work a normal work day....and get 12 - 14 weeks off.

Construction workers and landscapers often get four or five months off.

Are you suggesting having kids go to school 11 months of the year?

Smallc · June 11, 2011

Construction workers and landscapers often get four or five months off.

And they go on EI for that time, or take other jobs.

Are you suggesting having kids go to school 11 months of the year?

No, I'm suggesting giving a month at Christmas, and a month during summer. Give two weeks during the year (one in spring and one in fall) for inservices.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Smallc

August1991 · June 11, 2011

If you're saying that we pay the dues because we pay the salaries, then that's a stretch. Applying that principle to all situations would produce some similarly odd results.

Michael, the question is whether the decision is voluntary credit . Between taxes, teacher salaries and union dues, there is no free choice. Unlike a corporation, no one chooses freely to swipe a credit card when paying their child's education.

When it comes to taxes and union dues, it's an off the top deduction. IMHO, there is no difference between state pension contributions, income taxes, and union dues. People pay these without choice.

You ask a question, then answer it right afterwards: company executives act in their own interest, and they have access to investor money. It's naive to assume that these groups take the interests of others into account before their own.

Corporate executives, politicians and union leaders act in their own self-interest.

Corporate executives however do not have access to my pay cheque, unless I grant it. I can choose to give them my money or not. Politicians (and public sector union executives) have a different access.

----

Michael, more fundamentally, money does not make people rich. People are richer when they have more choices.

IMV, a civilized society should aim to give more choices to more people.

Edited June 11, 2011 by August1991

CPCFTW · June 11, 2011

It's not really vacation time. A true vacation is being able to arbitrarily book time off of regular work and receive pay for the time missed. Teachers are paid based on class days, unions have fought for that pay to be spread out over the year instead of having teachers worry about budgeting. Which backfires because now it appears as though they are paid for not working (vacation) and lesser minds have a hard time actually understanding how it actually works.

So teacher's get time off from work stoppage (no kids in school) but, they aren't really paid for vacation. They are not allowed to take vacation from work days.

It makes more sense to attack the salary to days worked.

My mother gets 6 weeks off a year as a bank teller.

So lets use 6 weeks above and beyond what people would get.

$43,000 x 52/46 = $48,000 starting equivalent as a higher end teacher.

$75,000 x 52/46 = $84,000 median teacher salary adjusted for getting an additional 6 weeks of work stoppage.

$94,000 x 52/46 = $106,000 maximum teacher salary after upgrade courses and 13 years of experience in Ontario as of Sept 1st, 2011

Median pay equivalent of $84,000? That's really good. And I think it would have to drop significantly before high quality teachers are turned away from the profession.

Do you really think 6 weeks vacation is the norm in the private sector? You really are out of touch with reality. I don't know what your mom did to get 6 weeks vacation as a bank teller, but that can't be normal at all. In fact, I would think bank tellers generally get the minimum 4% vacation pay (or about 2 weeks). You certainly would never start with 6 weeks vacation as a bank teller... she must have been there for a LOOOONG time or she works overtime for vacation days. Try your calculations again with 2 weeks for a more accurate reflection of how inflated teacher's salaries are.

Edited June 11, 2011 by CPCFTW