Should Stephen Harper Resign?

[caesar]

If the Conservatives want to ever gain power in Canada they better go back to the more moderate leaders and members. The Liberals did not defeat them as much as they defeated themselves. Giving out hints of changes they supported; then denying them. Calling the Liberals and NDP supporters of child porn was a big turn off too.

Many Canadians will not forget that Harper went to the USA and apologized for Canada not backing the USA in Iraq; He said Canadians were wrong. Well buddy, Canadians were NOT wrong; Harper was.

[playfullfellow]

expect I'll get raked over the coals for this one but what the CPC needs now is probably, wait for it, Joe Clark. A western moderate who can build real alliances among the centre and the centre right. But it will never happen.

Yep, you will probably get it. Joe Clark is a has been. He is just a sore loser and would never be able to get a majority government if he lead the Conservatives. The Cons picked Harper as they should have.

[takeanumber]

Who wants women to wear a Burqua?

It's an allusion.

Christian social conservatism has a lot in common with islamic social conservatism.

More than you'd like to admit.

So that's the Burqua illusion. Whether it's restricting a woman's right to choose, or generally just rolling back women's rights (as Randy White implied), the social Conservative element of the CPC's have a lot in common with islamic social conservatives. (and in some parts, they're synomous.)

[August1991]

Christian social conservatism has a lot in common with islamic social conservatism.

There you go again, TalkNumb. And Jack Layton has a lot in common with Fidel Castro because they both favour socialized medicine.

[playfullfellow]

Christian social conservatism has a lot in common with islamic social conservatism.

Holy dina, I think I finally figured it out takeanumber, by your statement, you are basically anti-religion. No matter what the religion we are talking about.

[Stoker]

It's an allusion.

Christian social conservatism has a lot in common with islamic social conservatism.

More than you'd like to admit.

So that's the Burqua illusion. Whether it's restricting a woman's right to choose, or generally just rolling back women's rights (as Randy White implied), the social Conservative element of the CPC's have a lot in common with islamic social conservatives. (and in some parts, they're synomous.)

How about leaving the "allusions" to birthday parties and the circus.........let's talk facts.

Tell me what part of the Conservative platform said they were going to restrict a womens right to choose? No more allusions, let's see some facts.......

[playfullfellow]

Didn't Randy White give his opponents a trouncing in his riding? Shows that his constituents have no problem with his views. It might not be a Toronto view but it was definitely an Abbotsford view.

[Stoker]

Didn't Randy White give his opponents a trouncing in his riding? Shows that his constituents have no problem with his views. It might not be a Toronto view but it was definitely an Abbotsford view.

As last night has proven, the Eastern voters don't seem to understand that White's views are those of himself and his constituents, not the CPC........I wonder why the media didn't breach the subject of Liberal "pro-lifers"?

[idealisttotheend]

Yep, you will probably get it. Joe Clark is a has been. He is just a sore loser and would never be able to get a majority government if he lead the Conservatives.

The CBC suggested Lord today, he might be a good choice. He's moderate and all though I can't believe he rejected public auto insurance, he might appeal to Ontario without actually being from Ontario.

Still Harper is staying I'm sure and unless the CPC is really really stupid they won't push him during a minority government.

[takeanumber]

As last night has proven, the Eastern voters don't seem to understand that White's views are those of himself and his constituents, not the CPC........I wonder why the media didn't breach the subject of Liberal "pro-lifers"?

You say that White's opinions,

that Gallant's opinions,

that Harper's opinions,

and Reynolds,

That Monte's, that Albozy's and Kenny's...that ANDERS, that Thompson

and Ramsey (!)

That all of these people, all of their opinions are all their own.

Well then:

In absense OF A POLICY CONVENTION, what I am to think?

In ABSENSE of a coherent SOCIAL POLICY period...

What I am to think of the outcome of that policy convention?

Sorry Mr. Harper, No Blank Check for you.

[Stoker]

You say that White's opinions,

that Gallant's opinions,

that Harper's opinions,

and Reynolds,

That Monte's, that Albozy's and Kenny's...that ANDERS, that Thompson

and Ramsey (!)

9 out out 99? thats got to be the party consensus eh

In absense OF A POLICY CONVENTION, what I am to think?

In ABSENSE of a coherent SOCIAL POLICY period...

What I am to think of the outcome of that policy convention?

Sorry Mr. Harper, No Blank Check for you.

Was there any time for a policy convention?

So what gave you carte blanche to decide that the entire CPC was "pro-life"? A hunch perhaps? Your dog told you maybe? What was it?

[August1991]

What about the gay, non-white, non-male, pro-choice Tory candidates running in Ontario and Quebec. Nobody heard anything from them or even about them.

In any case, I don't think it was the media that had a lot to do with this.

It was those Liberal ads. They were very, very effective in Ontario, with women. They were designed precisely to do it.

Look TalkNumb, if you insist on believing that Harper has a hidden agenda to turn Canada into a Christian Saudi Arabia with Brazilian wealth distribution, then fine. But it means that your abilities as an intelligent analyst are basically nil.

[takeanumber]

It's a lot more than just 9/99, I just named the most prolific.

If you'd like me to go through and identify the anti-libertarian elements of the Con party, I can.

There's also a problem with the school of thought that Harper is from with respect to the Charter.

I can write a book on the topic.

I don't agree with them on a bevy of issues, mainly social. I don't think it's right for them to say "get out of the way of the individual" and then to go about and restrict people's choices, and general respect for equality.

But they got a few economic holes too. They were tough enough on the debt. They were too generous with the tax cuts. They didn't talk at all about farm reform, which, if the West wants in so bad, it should have been talked about.

He should resign.

The Libs defeated themselves.

And Harper couldn't capitalize. (even when he went negative from the get go.)

[Stoker]

It's a lot more than just 9/99, I just named the most prolific.

If you'd like me to go through and identify the anti-libertarian elements of the Con party, I can.

Sure, but to avoide slanderous rhetoric, please provide some proof.......then go through the other parties and find their "pro-lifers" so as not to be partisan......

[takeanumber]

Jeeebbus

Alright.

Who is Harper's Advisor?

If you can answer me that basic question, I will list two books for you to read that he authored (which are just good samples), and I will provide to you some notes that I took from that lecture.

And then we can go from there and discuss the situation with the Social Cons.

Alright?

Can you name Harper's strategic advisor?

While you're at it, name Stockwell Day's strat advisor during his leadership too.

[willy]

Who outlawed being pro life? I don't think the government should be the deciding factor, but I am pro-life.

Many social issues are this way. My faith brings me to a personal view but I don't look to the government to mandate it. My NDP candidate was of the same opinion maybe we should talk about her hidden agenda.

Look, parties are made up of a variety of views, some believe this means they don't have a voice but really it is the only way parties can govern. Libs center left, Cons center right.

Can you name Harper's strategic advisor?

While you're at it, name Stockwell Day's strat advisor during his leadership too.

Harper had many, and is a policy and strategist himself.

Stock had Ron Love, and he didn't reach out to Ontario. He made many mistakes but has learned a number of lessons. Stock has earned back my respect but I still don't want him to lead the party.

[noelandmero]

Why should Harper resign? He got 99 seats, with a newly united party, no policy convention and a good economy. Harper's biggest problem this election was having what he felt was a fair and democratic social policy in his party. I personaly liked the let the candidates decide there own social policy in there ridings policy. This unfortunately does not work in canada. As sevral people pointed out there were pro-life an anti-gaymarriage candidates from every party. They got no airtime in lib and NDP parties because the party had a different stated policy and no one could confuse there opinion with the parties. It is time for the conservative party to accept alot of responsibility for why they did not win and never will win fore until socially they have a progrssive platform the libs will beat them. Now is it the libs fault for using our biggest weakness against us I don't think so, as we certainly tried to use theres against them. The next time around harper needs to say he will let quiremo's get married and never inhibit a womans right to chose take the amunition away from the liberals it is easy to do. For them to take our ammunition against them away is very difficult as they are more corrupt than a south american junta. We in the end can only gain votes by being socially progressive we are not going to lose any. So lets give the fiberals a big round of applause we gave them a club and they beat us with it.

[Goldie]

Cheryl Gallant won her seat

Randy White won his seat

Scott Reid won his seat

Any body else?

Central Canada may not like it but two of them are representing Ontario ridings and had the guts to speak about social issues and won. Good for them.

[maplesyrup]

The Conservatives have never held a policy convention.

Once that happens perhaps a lot of the confusion and/or fear of the Conservatives may dissipate.

Who knows.

[Michael Hardner]

Stoker:

As last night has proven, the Eastern voters don't seem to understand that White's views are those of himself and his constituents, not the CPC........I wonder why the media didn't breach the subject of Liberal "pro-lifers"?

So what gave you carte blanche to decide that the entire CPC was "pro-life"? A hunch perhaps? Your dog told you maybe?

But White's views could end up as law under the CPC's "free vote" policy. And no, a dog didn't tell us they were "pro-life" but the local CPC candidates' silence on those issues raise legitimate concerns.

[Michael Hardner]

It would be soooo stupid to dump Harper now. The east knows him now, and liked him enough to give him an early lead. All he has to do is bulletproof the CPC's policy against social conservatism.

That's all.

Once that is done, the Liberals will have nothing more to go after.

For those of you who object to that idea, take a look back at the failures of the Reform/Alliance in the east. Preston Manning was too socially conservative, then Stockwell Day was too socially conservative, then the new CPC lost after being painted as being too socially conservative.

Do you see a pattern yet ?

Face it, there's no way to sneak in socially conservative policies, either under the "free vote" umbrella or otherwise. It just won't fly for a national party to get elected with any room for those kind of policies being introduced. The urban voters won't accept it, so drop it and take your place in government.

Or stick by your principles and stay in opposition.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Mr. Harper too extreme?LOL.

He is from the Conservative Party,check the word conservative in the nearest dictionary.

The name means nothing in that respect. The 'Conservative' Party is not really conservative, and in fact, it's even possible to be an 'extreme conservative' if you think about it.

Extreme is Liberals giving inmates permission to vote.

The Court did that, not the Liberals.

Extreme is the liberals being voted in after the many scandals and unanswered questions.

Well, it's extremely unfortunate that this was necessary, but it's not an example of extremism. It's an example of moderate conservatism, actually -- people wanted to stick with what they knew rather than what they suspected wouldn't suit them.

Extreme is the NDP thinking they now ,with 19 seats,or 5.6% of the votes,can fulfill their agendas with the help of the liberals.

They are planning to work within the institutions provided. How is that 'extreme'?

[The Terrible Sweal]

Tell me what part of the Conservative platform said they were going to restrict a womens right to choose? No more allusions, let's see some facts.......

No part of the platform specifies that objective.

However:

a-important members of the party express a desire to;

b-important intellectual influences of the party express an intention to eviscerate the institutions which sustain the right; and

c-the party platform until recently contained a specific policy which could lead from b to a (referenda).

Voters can draw their own conclusions.

[maplesyrup]

Conservatives will now have a chance to show Canadians what they have in common.

How's that you say?

By arranging a policy convention. Then Canadians will have an opportunity to see the kind of people, and their ideas, that are involved with this new party, and learn about their so-called hidden agenda.

Then Canadians can see for themselves if Conservatives pass the muster.

Doesn't this make sense?

[August1991]

Face it, there's no way to sneak in socially conservative policies, either under the "free vote" umbrella or otherwise. It just won't fly for a national party to get elected with any room for those kind of policies being introduced. The urban voters won't accept it, so drop it and take your place in government.

I find it hard to argue with you Michael.

But I open up my G&M this morning to see a story about a quadrapelgic Tory elected and a Tory couple of Indian origin elected. Belinda Stronach was elected. There was at least one openly gay Tory candidate I am aware of.

The idea of free votes is not bad. Harper was moderate.

There were two effective Liberal attack ads: the helicopter, gun firing and the Mulroney-Harris mess. Both implied that if Harper won, the sky would fall in. The female narrating voice is icy.

You spoke of bullet-proofing against this but it's easier said than done. Any leader from the West is going to be suspect, and vulnerable to such ads in the East.

In the US, the response is to go negative too. (Money thrown in garbage cans isn't enough.)

Incidentally, those TV ads must have cost the Liberals a bundle. Or did they?