Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

[WIP]

Then your beef is with your own government, not Israel or Israelis. The Americans have built a fine wall in several southwest states, and would do the same along the northern border with Canada if/when necessary. This should get you hopping mad too. This is the action of a sovereign nation state....just like Israel.

There are a lot of Americans outside of that Christian Zionist bubble in the Republican Party who have the same beef....because they thought their Nation's MiddleEast Policy was to support Israel, but to push towards some sort of peace settlement. And then they woke up to find that their presidents, whether George Bush or Barack Obama, are taking orders from Netanyahu.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are a lot of Americans outside of that Christian Zionist bubble in the Republican Party who have the same beef....because they thought their Nation's MiddleEast Policy was to support Israel, but to push towards some sort of peace settlement. And then they woke up to find that their presidents, whether George Bush or Barack Obama, are taking orders from Netanyahu.

Then they never should have gone to sleep....there is no such thing as a peace settlement without a price tag. Peace is way overrated anyway.

Supporting Israel (and Palestinians) are not mutually exclusive events.

[Bob]

It's funny listening to people like WIP, who don't know the first thing about Israel, commenting on Israeli society. How much do you think your analysis of Israeli society is worth, WIP? Your commentary on the "radicalization" of Israeli society and our lack of willingness to engage in a "realistic" peace process is based on a rich understanding of history and contemporary events, I assume?

T also find it quite rich that you criticize the IDF for being too aggressive with the "unarmed demonstrators" during the recent Golan breach attempt. Even better, you suggested that the incident was comparable to evacuation of Gush Katif. Please feel free to show us YouTube videos from each incident and draw the parallels. Reading your posts, one is left with the impression that the IDF responded differently in similar incidents. The IDF has good reason not to worry about Israelis stabbing them, shooting them, or blowing themselves up to become Shahids. Not so with the Syrian invasion attempt.

Nevermind the fact that one would naturally expect one's own military to conduct itself itself different with its own citizens than with people from a state with which we are still technically at war with, and a state that materially and politically supports terrorists that murder us with widespread support from its population.

Like I said, there are plenty of YouTube videos illustrating both events: the evacuation of Gush Katif and the recent border hostilities from the Syrian agitators. Feel free to back up your silly assertion that the two incidents were comparable and that the IDF conducted itself in an overly aggressive manner.

Ah to hell with it, I'll post some videos myself.

Good luck comparing this:

with this:

Let's also conveniently forget the fact that the evacuation of Gush Katif was a forceful transfer of thousands of people whereas as the recent tensions as at the Israeli/Syrian border were a few hundred agitators being kept OUT. Of course, to you these two events are somehow comparable an indicative of "radical" Israeli policies of self-defense of protection of sovereignty.

And at this point I think the reports has suggested that about a thousand Syrians had been killed in their "ant-government protests", with thousands moving into Lebanon and claiming to be refugees. The Arabs sure are good for a laugh!

[WIP]

It's funny listening to people like WIP, who don't know the first thing about Israel, commenting on Israeli society. How much do you think your analysis of Israeli society is worth, WIP?

Who gives a shit? I never claimed expertise on this subject in the first place. You are just using your insider perspective to try to browbeat any criticism from outside. From my pov, the modern Israeli experiment looks like an attempt to set up camp in a wooded location surrounded by hornets nests. I've heard arguments batted around from all sides about who has and who doesn't have the right to the land, and I'll be the first to admit total confusion...although some of the claims, like no Arabs were forced out of Palestine during the runup to creating Israel to be totally ludicrous.

The question for me, as someone who has other concerns than the Middle East, is why guaranteeing the State Of Israel should be my responsibility through the decisions of my elected leaders? And I'm sure a lot of Americans are asking this question now more than ever! I thought we were supposed to be involved for the purpose of providing support for a possible peaceful solution; now we are stuck supporting whatever Israel decides to do, whether it's blockading civilian populations or shooting demonstrators.

Your commentary on the "radicalization" of Israeli society and our lack of willingness to engage in a "realistic" peace process is based on a rich understanding of history and contemporary events, I assume?

Now I know why most people avoid discussing anything with you! Anyone who offers criticism is a subject for personal attacks. If the stories I've glanced over about the increasing power of orthodox, and the corresponding decline of secular Jews is mistaken, so be it. The overall impression is that Israel looks increasingly aggressive and theocratic as the time goes on.....which reminds me, I've never had the chance to answer the thread question can "a Jewish state" be a democracy? Well, looks to me like the answer is NO...since true democracy requires equality of all citizens, not dividing into separate classes of Jews, Israeli Palestinians and Palestinians under occupation. As time has gone on, the paradox of being Jewish and being a modern democratic state have become untenable with the rise in numbers of non-Jews.

Reading your posts, one is left with the impression that the IDF responded differently in similar incidents. The IDF has good reason not to worry about Israelis stabbing them, shooting them, or blowing themselves up to become Shahids. Not so with the Syrian invasion attempt.

Who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin? Let's step into the wayback machine and see if the Israeli Government was really confident that their soldiers wouldn't be shot, stabbed or blown up by rightwing orthodox zealots who came in to stop their removal:

At first, many officials advised against raiding the hotel at this stage, preferring to leave it alone until all the other Gaza settlements have been evacuated. They argued that it was better for most of the extremists to congregate at one venue, thereby making it harder for them to provoke radical activity in other areas.

But developments in the past week have changed that analysis. Several hotel residents assaulted and opened fire on a group of Palestinians from the neighboring Muasi area, wounding four of them, on Saturday. The security establishment also has learned that the hotel residents are collecting weapons there, with most of the men armed, and have come up with several plans to oppose the disengagement.

The official reason for raiding the hotel before the disengagement is that several of the residents suspected of Saturday's attack are wanted for questioning.

The residents' opposition to the raid is expected to lead to a number of arrests and closure of the site.

Many people who live in the Gush Katif settlement bloc have reservations about the hotel, saying its residents are making all settlers appear radical and violent.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-police-preparing-to-raid-gush-katif-hotel-housing-extremists-1.162092

[bush_cheney2004]

...The question for me, as someone who has other concerns than the Middle East, is why guaranteeing the State Of Israel should be my responsibility through the decisions of my elected leaders? And I'm sure a lot of Americans are asking this question now more than ever!

No, actually we are asking why we have to pay for 90% of NORAD !

[Oleg Bach]

Then your beef is with your own government, not Israel or Israelis. The Americans have built a fine wall in several southwest states, and would do the same along the northern border with Canada if/when necessary. This should get you hopping mad too. This is the action of a sovereign nation state....just like Israel.

Some how governments and others still have this stero-typical idea about Jews, that they are smarter - more shrewd and know everything about maintaining and getting more and more money. No one group has a monopoly over the wizardry of economy! So privately I assume that governements and others - suck up to Israel in an attempt to appease and please Jews everywhere...For instance when Greenspan addressed congress the audience - treated him like a god...that the super Jew had it all under control. Through stero-typical thinking they over estimated Greenspan and thing fell apart anyway. Even Greenspan was quick to admit that he had used up his whole bag of tricks and was now running on empty.

Having blurted this - back to the point...Yes governments are humans and governments can be rubes and unsophisticated in their thinking. The Jews are not to blame because they also can be dumb - and governments are not to blame because they can be utterly stupid also - No one is to blame! There is one mistake that is made by most people in power...They underestimate some and over estimate the ability and talent of most...we are human and slightly stupid.

[dizzy]

No, actually we are asking why we have to pay for 90% of NORAD !

your paranoia, your bill.

[Bob]

So basically, WIP, you're standing by your ignorant descriptions of Israel as "theocratic" and criticizing its democratic nature, while parroting the typical false assertions of a class-based society based on religious/ethnic identity - with Jews at the top and Arabs/Muslims at the bottom. How have you arrived at this conclusion? By reading the occasional Haaretz article, one of the less-popular and left-leaning newspapers in Israel.

I can see you're also standing by your argument that since the IDF evacuated Gush Katif without casualties, that they should have been able to stop the infiltration into our land from an angry mob of agitators from a country we are war with - who were promised money from Assad in the event of their injury or "martyrdom". You are so delusional as to think these two scenarios are in any way comparable.

Put simply, you think the Israeli evacuated from Gush Katif reasonably posed the same risk to the IDF soldiers as the Syrian mob. Do I really need to spend more time explaining how absurd this argument is? Moreover, it illustrates the extent to which you'll engage in mental gymnastics to characterize Israel as unjustifiably aggressive in defending its sovereignty.

[WIP]

So basically, WIP, you're standing by your ignorant descriptions of Israel as "theocratic" and criticizing its democratic nature, while parroting the typical false assertions of a class-based society based on religious/ethnic identity - with Jews at the top and Arabs/Muslims at the bottom. How have you arrived at this conclusion? By reading the occasional Haaretz article, one of the less-popular and left-leaning newspapers in Israel.

I'm sure your Government is already at work trying to shut down Haaretz, or force them to tow the line. I'm noticing that liberal voices from Israel are fewer and harder to find than they were a few years ago.

I can see you're also standing by your argument that since the IDF evacuated Gush Katif without casualties, that they should have been able to stop the infiltration into our land from an angry mob of agitators from a country we are war with - who were promised money from Assad in the event of their injury or "martyrdom". You are so delusional as to think these two scenarios are in any way comparable.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or do you just take the word of your spokesmen? I also heard claims that the Government spokesmen claim some of the dead were killed by stepping Syrian landmines, but haven't provided evidence to confirm their story.

Put simply, you think the Israeli evacuated from Gush Katif reasonably posed the same risk to the IDF soldiers as the Syrian mob. Do I really need to spend more time explaining how absurd this argument is? Moreover, it illustrates the extent to which you'll engage in mental gymnastics to characterize Israel as unjustifiably aggressive in defending its sovereignty.

The only reason they could have known is if they already knew the orthodox zealots that moved in to Gush Katif were liars, and would not "fight to the death" as they were claiming beforehand. Their rhetoric and actions before their removal sure made them appear to be a serious hostile threat. Yet they got the kid glove treatment in comparison, because they are part of that growing extreme rightwing orthodox group that the politicians are afraid of.

There is a pattern established here, and we haven't even got to the Gaza Blockade yet...a blockade of a civilian population that is tacitly supported by the U.S. and other major powers. The last time an attempt was made to break the blockade by boat, 9 were killed, including a U.S. citizen, whom the U.S. Government has apparently done nothing to try to investigate, let alone redress. Cameras and all recording devices were confiscated from passengers on the boats to hinder any unbiased, independent investigation. So what's going to happen this time, when this new boatlift sets sail from Greece. They have already been warned by Hillary Clinton that the U.S. Government will do nothing to protect them from harm, and there are Americans with access to media, such as CNN commentator - Eric Ericson, who are encouraging killing of Americans if the attempts so far to bribe Greece to stop the flotilla are unsuccessful.

Now, I already know what you're going to say. You're going to give me the same old argument that the Arabs can't be trusted to abide by any peaceful settlement, and Israel has to do whatever it takes to defend itself. Well, if that's what it boils down to, it's time to start admitting that talk of two-state solutions is a fraud, just as much as the equivalent separate homelands policy of the former South African Government were fraudulent. But, Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders keep this charade going because they know that most of the West is going to look for a way to cut Israel loose if there is not even an attempt to bring the wars and occupations to an end. And, it seems like most of the Jews who have seen a future of endless war with implacable enemies have already left. The ones who are moving there, or remain in Israel are willing to fight to the bitter end (although some of them have exemptions from military service).

[bush_cheney2004]

There is a pattern established here, and we haven't even got to the Gaza Blockade yet...a blockade of a civilian population that is tacitly supported by the U.S. and other major powers. The last time an attempt was made to break the blockade by boat, 9 were killed, including a U.S. citizen, whom the U.S. Government has apparently done nothing to try to investigate, let alone redress.

Why would the US seek redress? Go talk to Rachel Corrie's parents and lawyer about their civil lawsuit.

This is not about Americans...dead or alive. Seeking rescue for one's foolish actions apparently is not favored as much as in Canada.

[Oleg Bach]

You don't put your hand in a growling dog's mouth and not expect to suffer the conseqences. Israel is hyper vigilant and paraniod...and rightfully so. To not expect strong retaliation for any threat, real or imagined is foolish. The height of human social immaturity is played out by all parties when it comes to this on going sickness...and that is what it is - no one has learned a damned thing in the last 40 years.

[Rue]

Oy more Olegisms. Oh Oleg see you at the gay pride parade tomorrow. But until then allow me to respond to some of your comments:

"Some how governments and others still have this stero-typical idea about Jews, that they are smarter - more shrewd and know everything about maintaining and getting more and more money."

Uh no Oleg..but clearly you do.

You stated:

"No one group has a monopoly over the wizardry of economy!"

Well no Oleg, the last time I looked, China has created a very successful monopoly in world trade by deliberately using its state run economic engine to create huge trade imabalances with other nations sparking rampant debt of these nations and a major shifting of manufacturing processes to China who can now flood the world with inferior quality products.

Its not wizardry. Its called a state monopoly. As well Japan and South Korea to a smaller scale did the same thing in the auto and electronics industries.

You stated:

"So privately I assume that governements and others - suck up to Israel in an attempt to appease and please Jews everywhere..."

Well no genius, you do so publically since you stated it on this forum and your intermixing tthe concepts of Jews everywhere and Israel evidences you engage in crude anti semitic stereotypes. Your thesis that to suck up to Jews one sucks up to Israel is as crude a generalization as it gets.

What you think if you suck up to Israel I will kiss you Oleg? Lol. Can you get real. No not all of us Jews automatically want to have sex with you because you have nice things to say about Israel. That is a pathetic stereotype of yours which you then project on countries. Give us all a break.

Oh but wait:

"For instance when Greenspan addressed congress the audience - treated him like a god...that the super Jew had it all under control."

No Oleg that is simply your subjective stereotype no one else's. Sprt of like your take on gays and their lifestyle. You have these ideas about Jews, gays, that are not based on hatred just your wierd world of assumptions. The wierd thing is you mean zero negative meaning in what you say but you have no clue it is simply your subjective generalizations.

Please ramble on with the Jewisisms.

"Through stero-typical thinking they over estimated Greenspan and thing fell apart anyway. "

No that is your stereo-typical thinking. Oleg get a hold of yourself. If you think world economists engage in such idiotic and illogical references you might want to adjust your medication and try again.

You stated:

"Even Greenspan was quick to admit that he had used up his whole bag of tricks and was now running on empty."

Did he also say" Look at me I am a Jew, I hope you suck up to Israel now...".

Lol. Wait let's ask David Duke. He has very similiar theories. So does Shwa from what I have read on his take of Jews.

"Having blurted this - back to the point..."

Oh you blurted it.

"Yes governments are humans and governments can be rues..."

Hey was that a shot at me?

"The Jews are not to blame because they also can be dumb - "

Why thanks Oleg. Lol.

Oh but wait you seem to be overwhelmed by "Christian" compassion;

"and governments are not to blame because they can be utterly stupid also -"

Well now that we all know we are a bunch of flipping retards thanks Oleg. Good to know you forgive us all.

You stated:

"No one is to blame!"

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Read the original thread. The intent was to prove Israel is to blame.

Either get with the scapegoating of Israel or I will report you to the QUIAA.

You stted:

"...we are human and slightly stupid."

Some us Oleg are really really stupid. Even stupider then Lady Ga Ga.

[Rue]

You don't put your hand in a growling dog's mouth and not expect to suffer the conseqences.

The analogy is shove your hand up someone's ass..but yes I do believe you get the essence of the reaction.

[jbg]

The analogy is shove your hand up someone's ass..but yes I do believe you get the essence of the reaction.

Graphic and disgusting.

[Saipan]

Who gives a shit?

I do. How many you need?

why guaranteeing the State Of Israel should be my responsibility through the decisions of my elected leaders?

It's not. (or it snot) Only of the people who give a hit.

now we are stuck supporting whatever Israel decides to do, whether it's blockading civilian populations or shooting demonstrators.

You got it confused with Syria, Libya and other Arab countries.

[Bob]

Saipan, it was quite ridiculous (and also offensive) for WIP to engage in self-righteousness as if Canada is sacrificing for Israel. As if Canadian soldiers are fighting our wars and taking on terrorists in and around Israel, and as if Canada is supporting Israel in a material manner. Not that Harper's political leadership isn't appreciated, he is taking the moral stand by supporting Israel and rejecting the "both sides are equal" line of deceit, but WIP's feigned outrage at his new "responsibility for guaranteeing Israel" and "supporting" Israel's actions that he disingenuously describes ("blockading civilian populations" and "shooting demonstrators") is some unbearable burden on his shoulders.

Just for fun, WIP, what other type of population could a state blockade? You described the Gazan population as "civilian", as opposed to what? Do you think Israel has restrictions on the transfer of products and people into and out of Gaza across its shared and Mediterranean borders just for the hell of it?

I also like how stone throwing agitators from an enemy country crossing into our country while chanting "Allahu Akbhar!" are described as "demonstrators". As it that term captures the full context of the situation, and isn't being used intentionally to drop the relevant context in order to misrepresent the hostilities that occurred recently in the Golan heights.

[jacee]

You stated:

"No one is to blame!"

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Read the original thread. The intent was to prove Israel is to blame.

Either get with the scapegoating of Israel or I will report you to the QUIAA.

The intent was to question Harper's choosing sides for us. The discussion of the democracy issue was informative. The discussion of Arabs/Palestinian protests, not so much. Or perhaps 'too much information' says it better.

Nothing has yet clarified for me why Canada has taken such a polarized position when a more neutral position is more likely to support the apparently desired two state solution.

Edited July 3, 2011 by jacee

[Saipan]

The intent was to question Harper's choosing sides for us.

Did it bother you Clinton and Chretien took sides in favor of Balkan terrorists? And it involved military attack, not just political opinion.

So taking that into account we should in fact help Israel in militarily action.

[Bob]

The intent was to question Harper's choosing sides for us. The discussion of the democracy issue was informative. The discussion of Arabs/Palestinian protests, not so much. Or perhaps 'too much information' says it better.

Nothing has yet clarified for me why Canada has taken such a polarized position when a more neutral position is more likely to support the apparently desired two state solution.

There were also two sides to WWII. "Neutral" is synonymous with "not taking a principled stand". Harper's taking a moral stand on this conflict, which is unpopular with many.