Military at the next G8/G20 summit?

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/05/30/g8-g20-security-costs.html

So in light of the cost of the G8 and G20 summits in the Toronto area, officials are saying that using the military to do some of the police work would have been more cost effective. Now I have no problem with the military helping out in emergencies (flooding in Quebec and Manitoba), that is actually a great civic use of the military. But the main reason for the military is to fight in foreign lands, not to police citizens at home. Is that like martial law when the army is patrolling the streets?

Many police were making a lot of money that weekend it seems. Average moneys to cops pulled in from other areas were between $5000 and $7500.

It is cheaper I guess to bring in the military, but if that is done, and the military is used to policing and detainment, what does that mean exactly? Is that even a possibility?

[eyeball]

"If we were comfortable having more of a military presence, as opposed to an RCMP presence, we might have been able to spread the lolly even further."

There, fixed it for them.

Martial law, police state...what's the difference? I imagine they'll use both next time.

[noahbody]

But the main reason for the military is to fight in foreign lands,

Citation?

not to police citizens at home.

I would agree with that thought as worded, but the job was to provide security to world leaders at a one-time event. The level of security was due to the threat of a terrorist attack. Using the military should've been a no-brainer. They likely didn't do it because the Liberals would've said, "See, soldiers on the street."

Still a waste of money. Why they don't just use the UN headquarters, I don't know. They could still have a host country that could bring sandwiches.

[Shwa]

Still a waste of money. Why they don't just use the UN headquarters, I don't know. They could still have a host country that could bring sandwiches.

[Shady]

I think they should host the G8/G20 on a battleship in the Atlantic. That would take care of all the security concerns and needless vandalism from the stupid progresses.

Sorry, my auto-correct changed it to progresses, it should have said protesters.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Shady

[bjre]

I think they should host the G8/G20 on a battleship in the Atlantic. That would take care of all the security concerns and needless vandalism from the stupid progresses.

Great idea. fully support.

[Scotty]

Many police were making a lot of money that weekend it seems. Average moneys to cops pulled in from other areas were between $5000 and $7500.

Police remuneration has gotten way out of hand. These are basically blue collar jobs which require a couple of months of training. Dangerous? Yes, but not as dangerous as taxi drivers. Mining, fishing, trapping, logging, construction, all have higher workplace injuries and fatalities. Yet police are making in the $80,000 range in basic salaries. When you add in the overtime they get for such things as testifying at trials or work like the G20, many police officers are into six figure salaries. These are not geniuses here. The crime solution rate in Canada is not particularly impressive, and because of the huge salaries we pay to cops we can't afford a lot of them. We have way less police per capita than many other nations, including the US, UK, France and Germany. I think if I remember right, France has something like three times as many cops as us per capita. Last year over 1300 cops in toronto alone took home more than $100,000, and they just got a big bump in salary which will bring their basic, full time rate to $91,000 per year - not including overtime. It's ridiculous, and all because of how Hollywood has romanticized the job.

If you actually did a true-to-life movie about a cop you'd find that he spent most of his time doing paperwork, filling out forms, or hanging around courts waiting to testify while playing cards with his buddies. And God knows there's precious little evidence these high salaries are drawing the best people into the job. The standard of behavior of the Toronto cops during the G20 summit was atrocious, and showed nothing but a lack of training, a lack of discipline, and a lack of understand that the law is supposed to apply to them too.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Scotty

[CPCFTW]

Police remuneration has gotten way out of hand. These are basically blue collar jobs which require a couple of months of training. Dangerous? Yes, but not as dangerous as taxi drivers. Mining, fishing, trapping, logging, construction, all have higher workplace injuries and fatalities. Yet police are making in the $80,000 range in basic salaries. When you add in the overtime they get for such things as testifying at trials or work like the G20, many police officers are into six figure salaries. These are not geniuses here. The crime solution rate in Canada is not particularly impressive, and because of the huge salaries we pay to cops we can't afford a lot of them. We have way less police per capita than many other nations, including the US, UK, France and Germany. I think if I remember right, France has something like three times as many cops as us per capita. Last year over 1300 cops in toronto alone took home more than $100,000, and they just got a big bump in salary which will bring their basic, full time rate to $91,000 per year - not including overtime. It's ridiculous, and all because of how Hollywood has romanticized the job.

If you actually did a true-to-life movie about a cop you'd find that he spent most of his time doing paperwork, filling out forms, or hanging around courts waiting to testify while playing cards with his buddies.

Good point. Cut those police wages to pay our starving mailmen!!!

[Scotty]

Good point. Cut those police wages to pay our starving mailmen!!!

Mailmen are making less than half what the cops are. And it wouldn't surprise me if they had more injuries on the job from carrying those heavy bags around.

Point is, they're both blue collar jobs. You and others complain about high public service salaries. Only executives in the public service make $100k a year. And that after a couple of dozen years climbing the ranks, and usually with at least a degree, if not two, along with a good deal of internal training and hard work. $91,000 is the basic salary of a full time constable - a guy who never got promoted at all! That's their entry level job!

[CPCFTW]

Mailmen are making less than half what the cops are. And it wouldn't surprise me if they had more injuries on the job from carrying those heavy bags around.

Point is, they're both blue collar jobs. You and others complain about high public service salaries. Only executives in the public service make $100k a year. And that after a couple of dozen years climbing the ranks, and usually with at least a degree, if not two, along with a good deal of internal training and hard work.

I think you'd be surprised at the education of the police force. I also think you underestimate the risk. Not to mention the abuse policemen or "pigs" face. They also go through police academy for a year I believe. Not to mention they carry a gun.

As far as I know, there are no psyche tests for a mailman. I would have no problem trusting our policemen to deliver my mail, I would be terrified if our mailmen were given guns and told to serve and protect us.

$91,000 is the basic salary of a full time constable - a guy who never got promoted at all! That's their entry level job!

Cite?

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/salaryandbenefits.php

You'd be more credible if you didn't make shit up to justify your anti-police rants. Only 1st class constables will be making 91k in 2014. Policemen start at about the same salary as mailmen, but I'm pretty sure they don't get 7 weeks vacation.

Edited May 31, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Scotty]

I think you'd be surprised at the education of the police force. I also think you underestimate the risk. Not to mention the abuse policemen or "pigs" face. They also go through police academy for a year I believe. Not to mention they carry a gun.

There are community college courses in policing which run a year, but they're not mandatory. The police training itself is from 12-24 weeks, depending on province. Hairdressers training is 45 weeks! Want to be a massage therapist? That's 3 full years.

As far as I know, there are no psyche tests for a mailman. I would have no problem trusting our policemen to deliver my mail, I would be terrified if our mailmen were given guns and told to serve and protect us.

Based on the behaviour of the police in Toronto you might be better off with the mailmen.

[AngusThermopyle]

Just my two cents here. It's my view that the Millitary should not be used to fullfill the function of a police force. Millitary members are not as a rule trained to act in a policing capacity. Further to that it would appear to just be a very bad idea for any government to use its armed forces against its own citizens in any capacity. I believe that only in the most dire circumstances should this option even be considered. Do we really want to become a nation where such is the accepted norm?

[CPCFTW]

There are community college courses in policing which run a year, but they're not mandatory. The police training itself is from 12-24 weeks, depending on province. Hairdressers training is 45 weeks! Want to be a massage therapist? That's 3 full years.

What's your point? As mentioned above, police don't make nearly as much as your fabricated claims.

Hairdressers don't have to train at all. I've never trained as a hairdresser, but I could charge people to cut their hair if I had a talent for it.

It might take 3 years to become a REGISTERED massage therapist, but you can give massages without any designation. Your services might not have very high demand unless you offer 'happy endings' though.

How can you continue to blatantly try to obfuscate and deceive when I've already called you on it?

Based on the behaviour of the police in Toronto you might be better off with the mailmen.

What behaviour? Isolated incidents of anarchists getting put in their place?

'How dare they beat up honest looters and vandals! I'm outraged, that could have been me getting beat down for innocently looting and throwing rocks at windows and cops!!'

If you ask me, the cops went way too easy on them. I had to walk an hour to timmies to get my coffee every morning for a week after the G20 because hippies decided that throwing rocks through the windows of every tim horton's in the downtown core (not to mention every other business) would show those corporate fat cats who's boss.

Edited May 31, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Battletoads]

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

[CPCFTW]

Haha listen to these kooks:

"The amount of money spent on the G20 could have erased homelessness in Canada!" Yup, I'm sure she's got a great business plan for how we can erase homelessness with $500-$1000 per homeless person.

"We're just trying to protect our planet!"

"People say that this vandalism is violence, but what those corporations do on a daily basis is actually killing real people, real animals, and the environment on a daily basis!"

Edited May 31, 2011 by CPCFTW

[fellowtraveller]

I think they should host the G8/G20 on a battleship in the Atlantic

Then we'd have to spend a billion bucks to get a battleship, you warmonger.

Point is, they're both blue collar jobs.

Police work is far more dangerous and challenging than anything in the post office. Consequences of failure in the post office: my Macleans magazine is late. Consequences of cop failure: corpses littering the streets.

There is certainly no reason at all that cops and soldiers cannot collaborate on security. Cops can do intelligence and arrests and detention, soldiers can patrol and secure. Makes sense.

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people.

Nonsense, they are both part of the number one priority for any country that has rule of law: security of the people. They just have somewhat different training and have been given somewhat different mandates, though there is no reason they cannot overlap when needed.

[Scotty]

What's your point? As mentioned above, police don't make nearly as much as your fabricated claims.

I said a first class constable will make $91,000. You replied with "But they're not all first class constables! So your point is meaningless! So there!"

No, it takes five whole years to become a first class constable. It is the standard rank for the police force. Of course, sergeants, detectives, etc, earn more.

Hairdressers don't have to train at all. I've never trained as a hairdresser, but I could charge people to cut their hair if I had a talent for it.

I'm sure you have a point somewhere. I just can't spot it.

How can you continue to blatantly try to obfuscate and deceive when I've already called you on it?

You haven't called me on a bloody thing. You've blustered and ranted and in the end it all boils down to you've watched cop shows all your life so as far as you're concerned the police deserve whatever they're paid and should be allowed to do whatever they want to do.

What behaviour? Isolated incidents of anarchists getting put in their place?

Don't recall any of those. I do recall a number of innocent people who had broken no laws being assaulted by police thugs, though, thugs who took off their name badges so they couldn't be identified.

You know, people who really support law and order, like me, hold police to account for breaking the law.

[guyser]

What behaviour? Isolated incidents of anarchists getting put in their place?

'How dare they beat up honest looters and vandals! I'm outraged, that could have been me getting beat down for innocently looting and throwing rocks at windows and cops!!'

If you ask me, the cops went way too easy on them. I had to walk an hour to timmies to get my coffee every morning for a week after the G20 because hippies decided that throwing rocks through the windows of every tim horton's in the downtown core (not to mention every other business) would show those corporate fat cats who's boss.

Yup , confirmed with this post.

You werent there, you can't read (or wont) and you know not one whit of what happened that weekend.

Its the only explaination for such outright ignorance. Dont argue, slip away quietly.

[guyser]

There is certainly no reason at all that cops and soldiers cannot collaborate on security. Cops can do intelligence and arrests and detention, soldiers can patrol and secure. Makes sense.

Nonsense, they are both part of the number one priority for any country that has rule of law: security of the people. They just have somewhat different training and have been given somewhat different mandates, though there is no reason they cannot overlap when needed.

I dont know about this.

In the US, the Army et al cannot be used as a civilian police force. The Nat'l Guard can be called in by the State but thats different. See POsse Comitatus Act (sp?)

As for Canada , I looked but could not find, something tells me we cant either.

[CPCFTW]

I said a first class constable will make $91,000. You replied with "But they're not all first class constables! So your point is meaningless! So there!"

No, it takes five whole years to become a first class constable. It is the standard rank for the police force. Of course, sergeants, detectives, etc, earn more.

You implied that the starting salary for "constables" was 91000 (no mention of 1st class or the necessary 5yrs of service). Quit lying, it's right there for everyone to read. Of course you don't understand the rest of my post but anyone with half a brain can figure out the difference between mandatory training and optional professional designations. I'll have to settle for that.

[CPCFTW]

Yup , confirmed with this post.

You werent there, you can't read (or wont) and you know not one whit of what happened that weekend.

Its the only explaination for such outright ignorance. Dont argue, slip away quietly.

.

Why would I be there? I have better things to do with my time than smash windows and burn police cars. If you were there, then why would I argue with you? You've already figured out the secret corporate plot to kill all the animals and trees.

[Topaz]

Well, if it cost 46 million a year to protect the PM, then those guys are making good money. A friend of mine took a security guard training and they were told that the guys that protect the PM make $800 a day! In Ontario, you have to have a license to be a security guard, about $400 for the course and 80.00 yearly for the license. Wages start out around 13-18 hourly but it also depends were you work. I imagine cities like Toronto they could make 20-30 hrly.

[Scotty]

You implied that the starting salary for "constables" was 91000 (no mention of 1st class or the necessary 5yrs of service). Quit lying, it's right there for everyone to read. Of course you don't understand the rest of my post but anyone with half a brain can figure out the difference between mandatory training and optional professional designations. I'll have to settle for that.

Well not having half a brain I'm afraid the conclusions based on the use of one elude me.

[dre]

If you want to avoid outrageous security costs, then dont have the fricking thing in a city.

And maybe scale it back a bit.

[RNG]

If you want to avoid outrageous security costs, then dont have the fricking thing in a city.

And maybe scale it back a bit.

A suggestion by someone else a long time ago. A large US aircraft carrier. You could fly the delegates out to the ocean. Safe, easily defended. Problem solved. Better than a battleship, where you would still have to dock to load it and defend the dock against the asshole protesters.

I am still trying to figure out what protesters at a G8/G20 meeting expect to accomplish.