Military at the next G8/G20 summit?

[bush_cheney2004]

Ask the Americans, I dont know.

Good advice....stop worrying about how the Americans do things.

[guyser]

Good advice....stop worrying about how the Americans do things.

Um, it was about the Posse Comitatus Act and the NG circumvents it. Perhaps you know?

[bush_cheney2004]

Um, it was about the Posse Comitatus Act and the NG circumvents it. Perhaps you know?

Sure..I know...but what would be the point of that? It doesn't apply in Canada.

[guyser]

Sure..I know...but what would be the point of that?

It was a question of interest. No more , no less

It doesn't apply in Canada.

No one said it did.

[bush_cheney2004]

It was a question of interest. No more , no less

No worries...that's why we invented Wikipedia, Google and the Internet for you...no more...no less.

[Army Guy]

I dont know about this.

In the US, the Army et al cannot be used as a civilian police force. The Nat'l Guard can be called in by the State but thats different. See POsse Comitatus Act (sp?)

As for Canada , I looked but could not find, something tells me we cant either.

Canadian Military members do not have powers of arrest, with exception of Military Police (MP) and those are retricted. Even during the FLQ crisses QPP made the actual arrest with the military there to ensure security, and back up.

During the G8/20 the military was there, to provide security to high value persons,and all the back ground stuff like VIP helo's, CAP, NBCW response teams, counter terrorist teams.....plus back up riot companies...Military new policy is to provide a heavy "UNSEEN' presence...just as in the games...

Military ROE are very restrictive, while on operations in Canada,other than the scare factor, they could not do much more than the police could or can... as they should be, besides the Military is still growing it's reputation and they don't need any bad press, let the cops do there job, and when things get way out of hand then we can call in the Army...

In Canada (Marshall law)was changed to the WAR measures Act, then in 1988 to the Emergencies Act.

The War Measures Act was a Canadian statute that allowed the government to assume sweeping emergency powers, stopping short of martial law, i.e. the military does not administer justice, which remains in the hands of the courts. The Act has been invoked three times: During World War I, World War II, and the October Crisis of 1970. In 1988, the War Measures Act was replaced by the Emergencies Act.

Prior to 1837, martial law was proclaimed and applied in the territory of the Province of Quebec during the invasion of Canada by the army of the American Continental Congress in 1775-1776. It was also applied twice in the territory of Lower Canada during the 1837-1838 insurrections.

On December 5, following the events of November 1837, martial law was proclaimed in the district of Montréal by Governor Gosford, without the support of the Legislative Assembly in the Parliament of Lower Canada. It was imposed until April 27, 1838.

Martial law was proclaimed a second time on November 4, 1838, this time by acting Governor John Colborne, and was applied in the district of Montreal until August 24, 1839.[2]

My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Canada

[CPCFTW]

Try reading as something "to do with" your time.

Because you sure are parading your ignorance on this issue for all to see.

Read what? Media matters?

[guyser]

Read what? Media matters?

Newspapers.

Or remain ignorant, not an issue for me.

[CPCFTW]

Newspapers.

Or remain ignorant, not an issue for me.

I've read plenty of sensationalism, but nothing that ever led me to believe the police had done anything wrong.

I guess I'll have to remain ignorant of the vicious crimes against humanity perpetrated by our police force since you can't seem to find any links, only a vague assurance that the truth is out there.

Edited June 1, 2011 by CPCFTW

[fellowtraveller]

You would not have a problem with it, but you do point out the problems using Kent State as an example of why it should not be done? What am I missing here?

I used Kent State as an example of military being involved in civilian security. There are always problems whenever protest meets the law, cops kill , maim and act irresponsibly just as the miltiary might. Shit happens, deal with it. But in the end, flawed security is better than none and there is no reason not to use the skills we have paid for in whatever situation warrants that use.

If we save a few hundred million using the army at G8/G20, let's roll.

[fellowtraveller]

wasn't the Canadian military used in a security capacity at Oka?

[Smallc]

wasn't the Canadian military used in a security capacity at Oka?

Yes, there is a provision in the National Defence Act (can't remember the section) that allows for provinces to use the military forces within their province in emergency situations.

[guyser]

I've read plenty of sensationalism, but nothing that ever led me to believe the police had done anything wrong.

With those words there is no sense even attempting .

However , Try this on....out of more than a thousand people arrested, only a handful of charges remain, all others dismissed.

The 'police" didnt do anything wrong.

http://www.680news.com/g20/article/176220--alleged-g20-protest-ringleader-released-from-jail-after-making-plea-bargain?ref=topic&name=g20&title=G8%2FG20+Toronto+Summit

'Of the more than 1,000 people arrested during the G20 summit in Toronto, only a handful of charges remain. Many of those arrested were never charged, and the months since have seen hundreds of charges dropped.

'http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110428/110428_g20_activist/20110428/?hub=CP24Home

Thats enough.

[Guest American Woman]

Any idea how they got around the PC Act ?

It sounds as if they got around it by saying it was a national defense issue because of the threat of terrorism. From what I understand, though, the PC Act has been loosely interpreted as of late to allow the military to be used in situations that it wouldn't have been involved in in the past. It sounds as if the PC Act is pretty ambiguous these days. There were some objections to the use of military troops at the Atlanta Olympics, but it doesn't sound as if anything came of it.

As for the difference between the federal military and the National Guard, as I understand it, the National Guard has a federal and a state role, so they can be called on by individual states according to the laws in said state. One of their roles is to serve in matters of civil unrest, such as riots/keeping peace.

Edited June 2, 2011 by American Woman

[CPCFTW]

With those words there is no sense even attempting .

However , Try this on....out of more than a thousand people arrested, only a handful of charges remain, all others dismissed.

The 'police" didnt do anything wrong.

http://www.680news.com/g20/article/176220--alleged-g20-protest-ringleader-released-from-jail-after-making-plea-bargain?ref=topic&name=g20&title=G8%2FG20+Toronto+Summit

'Of the more than 1,000 people arrested during the G20 summit in Toronto, only a handful of charges remain. Many of those arrested were never charged, and the months since have seen hundreds of charges dropped.

'http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110428/110428_g20_activist/20110428/?hub=CP24Home

Thats enough.

I'm sorry is this really what you were going on about? People were detained in an effort to stop the rioting and terrorism, and then subsequently released without being charged? Wow it's like the holocaust all over again!!

[RNG]

@Guyser

Are you really going to defend people destroying things? What about the shop owners, etc. You don't give a damn about them, do you? I can only hope some rebels hurt you in the same way.

Edited June 2, 2011 by RNG

[bloodyminded]

Guyser's point, and it's been clearly-established, is that the overwhelming majority of those detained were in no way involved in any violence or destruction.

The police acted as a heavy-handed, politicized band of assholes. That's the issue.

Edited June 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

[jacee]

I'm sorry is this really what you were going on about? People were detained in an effort to stop the rioting and terrorism, and then subsequently released without being charged? Wow it's like the holocaust all over again!!

The rioting was on Saturday while the police hid behind buildings watching but not arresting.

The illegal arrests were on Sunday.

We pay the police to protect us, not to arrest us because they're in a pissy mood.

[GostHacked]

Army Guy, thanks for that post. Good read.

.....

Here is another thing for all of you. Canadian and Americans. Something is happening to both our countries right befor our eyes. We can say all we want that well, if its the US it stays in the US, or it stays in Canada. But, our police has been essentially militarized in many ways. All this so called protection and security does not help with combating terrorism. More innocents are caught up in this drag net than would be killed by potential terrorism.

The other thing you are going to see (if you have not already) is foreign military/police units in your country to perform civilian policing duties. Let me put my tin foil hat on and quote NORTHCOM themselves.

http://www.northcom.mil/News/2008/021408.html

SAN ANTONIO, Texas — U.S. Air Force Gen. Gene Renuart, commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command and U.S. Northern Command, and Canadian Air Force Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais, commander of Canada Command, have signed a Civil Assistance Plan that allows the military from one nation to support the armed forces of the other nation during a civil emergency.

“This document is a unique, bilateral military plan to align our respective national military plans to respond quickly to the other nation's requests for military support of civil authorities,” Renuart said. “Unity of effort during bilateral support for civil support operations such as floods, forest fires, hurricanes, earthquakes and effects of a terrorist attack, in order to save lives, prevent human suffering and mitigate damage to property, is of the highest importance, and we need to be able to have forces that are flexible and adaptive to support rapid decision-making in a collaborative environment.”

I guess there is a reason many may not have heard about the deal, because ....

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=403d90d6-7a61-41ac-8cef-902a1d14879d&k=14984

Canada and the U.S. have signed an agreement that paves the way for the militaries from either nation to send troops across each other’s borders during an emergency, but some are questioning why the Harper government has kept silent on the deal.

Neither the Canadian government nor the Canadian Forces announced the new agreement, which was signed Feb. 14 in Texas.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey, this is getting good....shades of PolyNewbie!

There is nothing funnier than dire "warnings" to Americans about FEMA death trains. That's what happens when too much time is spent watching American media like InfoWars. Now it is rampaging police under the guise of "civil emergency". I'll bet these are the same folks who bitched about uncoordinated federal and state responses to hurricane Katrina.

I will let you know if I see a mountie in Minneapolis, besides the horse show at the state fair.

[guyser]

@Guyser

Are you really going to defend people destroying things? What about the shop owners, etc. You don't give a damn about them, do you? I can only hope some rebels hurt you in the same way.

No of course not. Never opined that I did.

I give a damn about the shop owners and am pissed the Cops decided to hide when the crap started Saturday. Bunch of babies who were scared.

But oh, those big tough Cops were brave with all the peaceful protestors on the Sunday. Why those people may have been squashing the grass at Queens Park and we cant have that now can we?

Do try band keep up.

Bloodyminded, spot on!

[GostHacked]

Hey, this is getting good....shades of PolyNewbie!

There is nothing funnier than dire "warnings" to Americans about FEMA death trains. That's what happens when too much time is spent watching American media like InfoWars. Now it is rampaging police under the guise of "civil emergency". I'll bet these are the same folks who bitched about uncoordinated federal and state responses to hurricane Katrina.

I will let you know if I see a mountie in Minneapolis, besides the horse show at the state fair.

These dire warnings are for both our countries. As much as you'd like to make it out to be just an American or Canadian thing. It is now both at the same time. Your usuall schtick rhetoric no longer seems to be valid in any way.

[bush_cheney2004]

Notice how this thread has drifted away from a genuine inquiry about costs and efficiencies in a purely Canadian/provincial context to the threat of cross border storm troopers. The poor hapless Americans have been invoked yet again to lend credence to wild ass concerns because there is insufficient critical mass for such hysteria as a standalone Canadian idea or policy.

This is a tried and true formula...anything can be made scarier (to some folks) if America can be added to the mix.

[Army Guy]

Here is another thing for all of you. Canadian and Americans. Something is happening to both our countries right befor our eyes. We can say all we want that well, if its the US it stays in the US, or it stays in Canada. But, our police has been essentially militarized in many ways. All this so called protection and security does not help with combating terrorism. More innocents are caught up in this drag net than would be killed by potential terrorism

Police have been forced to change with the threat, which has become more militarized, take a look at the wpns and tactics used by organized crime, gangs etc...showing up to a major gun battle with a 9 mm pistol are in the past, I think that running gun battle/ Bank robbery gone bad in LA proved that...

The other thing you are going to see (if you have not already) is foreign military/police units in your country to perform civilian policing duties. Let me put my tin foil hat on and quote NORTHCOM themselves

I think your reading to much into this new agreement, this agreement has been in the works now for many years, and was started as far back as the Winnipeg floods and Ice storm, these to minor set backs that mother nature threw at Canada tested DND and all the other depts to the limits...both had most of all 3 army brigs involved plus hundreds from the Navy and airforce...

All one has to do is look at katrina, and how difficult it was for the American military( worlds best equiped) to respond to a major event...a major earth quake in BC would over whelm anything Canada could muster, in hours....i could not fathom the Cas that would occur because the military simple would not be able to get to everyone in time...

The government knows all this and decided to take some sort of action, atleast have a back up plan....hence the North Com agreement...I hope that explains it some.

[Scotty]

@Guyser

Are you really going to defend people destroying things? What about the shop owners, etc. You don't give a damn about them, do you? I can only hope some rebels hurt you in the same way.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not aware of "protestors" assaulting anyone during the entire duration of the G20. Every assault, and certainly every serious assault that I've seen reported was committed by police officers, almost entirely on innocent, law-abiding people.

A couple of punks set a couple of empty police cars on fire. Big crying shame. That's hardly a reason for a police riot, or to excuse the police from roaming the streets and attacking people at random.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Scotty