Postal Strike Imminent

[bloodyminded]

The "socialist state" depends on wealth generated by capitalism. So you cannot separate one from the other.

??? That was precisely my point, and your backpedaling is tiresome.

What I said was that the exploitation of labour in foreign countries (a point you brought up, in case you forget and try to say it's not true) would be (and has been) occurring anyway, whether we have a social safety net or not.

That is, the exploitation is a capitalist enterprise. If there was no social safety net, as in your fantasy Randian dream-society, the exploitaiton would continue apace, with the money simply going elsewhere. (ie to the wealthiest individuals, and to the expanded and militarized police state necessary to keep the impoverished majority from hurting their ruling elites; and would the police state be privately funded, I wonder, to keep down the "entitlements" of the public?).

You're actually trying to imply (or maybe explicate) that the reason for the exploitation is because of the social safety net. And your reasoning? Well, I don't know, but I suspect it derives from the following argument: "The Left! The Left!"

You also, by necessity, must oppose defense spending, which also depends on...money!

Our society is a capitalist society and there is no alternative whether you like it or not.

I'm not demanding nor suggesting an alternative. I am conservatively suggesting we retain the social safety net, while you are radically asserting that we should dismantle it.

You tried to argue that some sort of 'minimum standards' should apply but you are blind because your minimum standards only apply to this country - you ignore workers in other countries which you depend on for your standard of living. If their wages and benefits went up your standard of living would go down - a lot.

So suddenly you don't believe in the free market globalization principle in which "all boats are raised"?

Now you are reduced to special pleading by saying government workers should be entitled to above market benefits to "ameliorate" the perceived harms of the capitalist economy.

"Perceived" harms? Are you now casting doubts upon your own assertions, which form the bedrock of your very thesis here?

Edited June 12, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Obviously, I was not talking about any grand central planning. But it is the responsibility of each "independent adult" to try to make the best life for themselves that they can. It is my opinion that almost any independent adult that is not severely disabled in some way (and some of those who are, too) has the capability to do something that warrants more than a minimum wage job. If some choose not to, why should they be paid more than minimum wage, especially when there is so much competition for these jobs from people perfectly happy to work for just minimum wage?

This argument doesn't even make sense, because you say there shouldn't even be a minimum wage.

So if having an unsuccessful class is so important, why do you advocate for higher pay for them?

I'm saying having an unsuccessful underclass is important to you, according to your economic worldview--while you simultaneoulsy look down upon the people who make it all possible in the first place.

Most class warfare is of the top-down variety.

Anyway, personally, I think raising up the bottom is both good and possible. (Almost) No one in the west lives in the kind of abject poverty that is common in Africa, for example,

Thanks in large part to the social safety net and regulatory frameworks which you think we should dismantle.

A higher minimum wage just means that those who are making slightly above minimum wage have now been pushed closer to the bottom of the spectrum, and all goods and services rise in price.

Are you honeslty going to argue that a static (or non-existent, your actual preference) minimum wage is going to stop inflation, and that goods and services will no longer rise in price?

Seriously???

And so then what happens? No minimum wage, and a continual increase in cost of living?

Luckily, the extra cash flowing to the deserving rich will help pay for the necessarily expanded police state, I guess.

Options like exercising better judgment in her next choice of boyfriend, someone who isn't gonna leave her to raise a child by herself, perhaps? I don't mean to belittle your example or anything, but I don't think most people who end up in such situations are blameless.

Nor do I, but don't see the single mother as more culpable of bad "judgement" than any of the other 60% of the population who gets divorced; and it's hardly a lower-class phenomenon.

Evidently, we should be holding the underclass to higher standards of responsibilty and wisdom.

I do not view it as society's responsibility to prop them up.

Your success with WoW depends entirely on the nearly 100% public funding to the technology that makes it possible, which was then virtually gifted to the private sector. Public costs, private rewards, in a kind of socialism designed by lunatics.

But the buck stops at the relatively poor (who in fact, unlike the profoundly subsidized wealthy class, will funnel every single cent back into the economy)?

Edited June 12, 2011 by bloodyminded

[M.Dancer]

Canada Post does not run on Tax Payer money. It runs on customer money. If Canada Post can pay those wages without dipping into Tax Payer money, I really don't care. It is giving people a good living and anyone can apply for the job.

there is of course why they make money, given their service is horrible....

[TimG]

Canada Post does not run on Tax Payer money. It runs on customer money. If Canada Post can pay those wages without dipping into Tax Payer money, I really don't care. It is giving people a good living and anyone can apply for the job.

Canada Post has a legislated monopoly. That means it can charge whatever it wants and people are forced to pay. As long as Canada Post has that monopoly your argument falls apart.

[fellowtraveller]

Canada Post does not run on Tax Payer money.

Let us not forget that Canada Post was given a massive gift when it became a Crown Corp, receiving perhaps a couple billion dollars worth of real estate, buildings, equipment for the price of $1.

[RNG]

Let us not forget that Canada Post was given a massive gift when it became a Crown Corp, receiving perhaps a couple billion dollars worth of real estate, buildings, equipment for the price of $1.

Ah, a real thinker. Thanks!

[Bonam]

This argument doesn't even make sense, because you say there shouldn't even be a minimum wage.

I was talking about the situation that we have in reality. What about the argument doesn't make sense to you? Also, where did I say we shouldn't have a minimum wage?

I'm saying having an unsuccessful underclass is important to you, according to your economic worldview--while you simultaneoulsy look down upon the people who make it all possible in the first place.

I've certainly never said that, nor do I believe that to be the case. Since you bring it up, I do think that in an economically healthy society, there will always be differences in monetary outcomes between individuals. Some will earn much more than others. And the definition of success changes with the times. But I think as technology progresses and the economy consequentially grows, all will reap some measure of benefit, just as they have historically.

Thanks in large part to the social safety net and regulatory frameworks which you think we should dismantle.

I'm not so sure. That our society can afford to have any of these nets and frameworks is a result of economic growth and prosperity. You can't redistribute wealth that never existed. The critical component of why most people in the west are now as well off as they are is technological and economic progress.

Are you honeslty going to argue that a static (or non-existent, your actual preference) minimum wage is going to stop inflation, and that goods and services will no longer rise in price?

I never made that argument. But raising the minimum wage certainly contributes to inflation and the price of goods and services.

And so then what happens? No minimum wage, and a continual increase in cost of living?

Then, the economy grows and most people can get jobs that pay more than minimum wage? This is pretty much already the case except during the occasional recession, by the way. And during recessions, there are plenty of people who would be happy to do a given job for minimum wage or even less if they could. Again, why should the minimum wage be raised if there are plenty of people willing to do the work for that wage or even lower?

Nor do I, but don't see the single mother as more culpable of bad "judgement" than any of the other 60% of the population who gets divorced; and it's hardly a lower-class phenomenon.

Evidently, we should be holding the underclass to higher standards of responsibilty and wisdom.

No, all should be held to the same standards. I don't support bailouts any more than I do welfare.

Your success with WoW depends entirely on the nearly 100% public funding to the technology that makes it possible

Source? Btw, I just said I could make money that way if I wanted to and know people who do. Myself, I presently have a real job though.

which was then virtually gifted to the private sector. Public costs, private rewards, in a kind of socialism designed by lunatics.

Rewards that anyone can capitalize on if they so choose. There are plenty of ways to make money in our economy. Again, able bodied/minded adults who grind away at a minimum wage job for years are wasting time and continually making a bad decision, 8 hours a day. There's almost always better options.

[cybercoma]

My wife works through an agency by contract and she receives payment in the mail. This postal strike may be a joke to some of you, but for others that rely on reliable postal delivery, it isn't.

[Battletoads]

Well, Canada Post has now locked out some 70+ thousand employees. So it's official, a nation wide postal strike is underway.

[M.Dancer]

.... but for others that rely on reliable postal delivery, it isn't.

No such thing...

[M.Dancer]

Well, Canada Post has now locked out some 70+ thousand employees. So it's official, a nation wide postal strike is underway.

First off, the post office is an anachronism...secondly, 3 months of not working and 50% of postal employees wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I mean really? Has anyone been to a post office lately and said to themselves, "Gosh, I wish every enterprise had such high standards of customer service and employees with such a model work ethic!"

Allow private enterprise to compete directly against Canada Post, ie, the freedom to charge less than CAnada Post, ad it will be out of business in 5 years.

[Evening Star]

I mean really? Has anyone been to a post office lately and said to themselves, "Gosh, I wish every enterprise had such high standards of customer service and employees with such a model work ethic!"

I rarely say that about any business, unless it's truly remarkable. (It's almost always a small business in that case, not a large corporation.) However, I've never really had a problem with Canada Post in the areas of customer service or employee work ethic.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Evening Star

[M.Dancer]

I rarely say that about any business, unless it's truly remarkable. (It's almost always a small business in that case, not a large corporation.) However, I've never really had a problem with Canada Post in the areas of customer service or employee work ethic.

I do. Regularly.

The commonplace ones occur when I go to the station to send an express. Waiting in line for 30 minutes, 2nd in line is normal as 3 in the back have a coffee while the one in front dithers...

Or getting mail to our office for an address across town...

The other kind is more problematic. We send a magazine out to over 10,000 people....we get three types receipts from CP, one for undeliverable, for which they charge us (on top of the postage) and another for deliverable, but the address is not to their liking. The most common is something like: Farkin Foolish Corp. 100o Bay Street, 10th floor....they say that they cannot deliver to the 10th floor, they need a suite number, even though the company is on the entire 10th floor. They charge us for this too...

The third is a subset of the 1st. Undeliverable but the address is correct and to their format. You can spend hours with them (mainly on hold) working through the list of correct addresses. We have never received a credit for their mistakes.

[Smallc]

I live in a rural area. Since only Canada Post comes here (no one else does) then I'm not sure what I'm going to do now. Anyway, the worst service I've ever found comes from UPS. Canada Post and Puralator do an awesome job of getting things to where they need to go.

[Battletoads]

First off, the post office is an anachronism...secondly, 3 months of not working and 50% of postal employees wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I mean really? Has anyone been to a post office lately and said to themselves, "Gosh, I wish every enterprise had such high standards of customer service and employees with such a model work ethic!"

Allow private enterprise to compete directly against Canada Post, ie, the freedom to charge less than CAnada Post, ad it will be out of business in 5 years.

And rural communities would be cut off without any form of postal service.

Yeah, brilliant idea.

[M.Dancer]

And rural communities would be cut off without any form of postal service.

Yeah, brilliant idea.

That is a non sequitor.

Does UPS deliver to rural communities?

Yes they do!

[Smallc]

That is a non sequitor.

Does UPS deliver to rural communities?

Yes they do!

Sure they do....through the post office.

[M.Dancer]

Sure they do....through the post office.

And if the Post Office wasn't there, it would be Stedmans...

Lets face it, if the Post Office had to compete on a level playing field (allowing competitors to compete against CP using the same rates), how long would they be around?

[Smallc]

And if the Post Office wasn't there, it would be Stedmans...

No, actually, certainly not where I live. A cit of 10 000 nearby doesn't even have real UPS service. UPS actually hands the package off the Canada Post in Brandon, and it only gets to me through the postal system.

When it comes to this, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Shady]

No, actually, certainly not where I live. A cit of 10 000 nearby doesn't even have real UPS service. UPS actually hands the package off the Canada Post in Brandon, and it only gets to me through the postal system.

When it comes to this, you have no idea what you're talking about.

So you're saying if there was no Canada Post in Brandon, there'd still be no UPS?

[Smallc]

So you're saying if there was no Canada Post in Brandon, there'd still be no UPS?

No, I'm saying if there was no Canada Post, that I'd have to drive an hour to get mail or packages of any kind. Brandon has UPS.

In an area as rural as this, it would be hard to operate anything like a parcel delivery service profitably.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Smallc

[Shady]

No, I'm saying if there was no Canada Post, that I'd have to drive an hour to get mail or packages of any kind. Brandon has UPS.

So you don't think that if there was no Canada Post near you that there'd be no instance of anything from UPS? How so?

[M.Dancer]

When it comes to this, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually I do. If you think there is a need that can only be filled by one provider, then you don't know what your talking about. It ain;t rocket science...and even then, NASA has competition...

It wasn't that long ago (25 years) that CP privatised some of their smaller offices...the hue and cry was from coast to coast....and every claim imaginable was made....yet today 1000s of local offices are run out of general stores and pharmacies..

The post office, as a business model is near the end of it's life span. It cannot compete with email (yet they are trying by offering secure email portals) and cannot compete with same day city service (although they used to..). ...and barely competes with parcel delivery companies like UPS (Purolator uses UPS BTW).

Numerous other nations including holland, UK, Sweden have ended the state enforced monopolies on mail delivery with no ill effects.

The two major arguments against either privatization are the rural service (the same argument was made when the privatised the local office...and Canadian identity...

In short, there are no good arguments for protecting canada post.

[cybercoma]

I rarely say that about any business, unless it's truly remarkable. (It's almost always a small business in that case, not a large corporation.) However, I've never really had a problem with Canada Post in the areas of customer service or employee work ethic.

I haven't had any problem either. The people at the post office are always pleasant and efficient. My letter carrier, too, has gone out of her way to be accommodating as well. I really have no complaints about the service.

[Smallc]

Actually I do. If you think there is a need that can only be filled by one provider, then you don't know what your talking about. It ain;t rocket science...and even then, NASA has competition...

It wasn't that long ago (25 years) that CP privatised some of their smaller offices...the hue and cry was from coast to coast....and every claim imaginable was made....yet today 1000s of local offices are run out of general stores and pharmacies..

The post office here is run out of a house and is delivered to by a contract driver. That doesn't mean that any of that would continue without the existence of the corporation, as this rote would not be nearly profitable.