Future of US and Canada

[dre]

If oil costs $500 a barrel within a decade, we'll be using a lot less of it, since many of the uses of oil will be replaced by more economic means, whether its coal plants instead of oil plants, electric cars instead of gasoline cars, or products made from non-plastic materials.

Thats exactly what people said when oil was at $20 a barrel, but consumption has increased along with the price.

And youre right... increasing oil costs will accelerate the development of other technologies but it happens very slowly, and we will probably need to have a major crisis before we get serious about it.

[Bonam]

Nowdays its just fine to reward despotic regimes with shitloads of patronage, and we tend to do more business with countries that treat workers like human cattle, and have very little in the way of labor or environmental regulation, because thats how we get the cheapest widgets.

Is that so? Then how come our top ten trading partners include:

US

UK

Japan

Germany

Netherlands

South Korea

France

7/10 are advanced first world nations where workers have standards of living comparable to Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Canada

[Bonam]

Thats exactly what people said when oil was at $20 a barrel, but consumption has increased along with the price.

And youre right... increasing oil costs will accelerate the development of other technologies but it happens very slowly, and we will probably need to have a major crisis before we get serious about it.

All the alternate technologies already exist, they just cost a bit more than oil at its current price. If oil was $500/barrel, electric cars with $15,000 lithium batteries would instantly make a lot of sense and could start rolling off the production lines within a year, tops. And there are alternatives that aren't more advanced, just different, and don't need any development, such as shutting down oil power plants and replacing them with coal power plants.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

All the alternate technologies already exist, they just cost a bit more than oil at its current price. If oil was $500/barrel, electric cars with $15,000 lithium batteries would instantly make a lot of sense and could start rolling off the production lines within a year, tops. And there are alternatives that aren't more advanced, just different, and don't need any development, such as shutting down oil power plants and replacing them with coal power plants.

Its not just the existance of technologies though its a matter of spending gigantic ammounts of capital on infrastructure, and the fact that most of the countries we would normally count on bring these technologies to market are flat ass broke.

And there are alternatives that aren't more advanced, just different, and don't need any development, such as shutting down oil power plants and replacing them with coal power plants.

Right but all of that costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. It took us almost 100 years to build all the oil and gas infrasture we needed. Even if you started now and industrialized countries made this their number 1 funding priority we still wouldnt be ready enough to avoid a major energy crisis.

[Bonam]

Right but all of that costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. It took us almost 100 years to build all the oil and gas infrasture we needed. Even if you started now and industrialized countries made this their number 1 funding priority we still wouldnt be ready enough to avoid a major energy crisis.

It's not a matter of nations setting priorities, it's a matter of businesses seeking profits. Private enterprise is much more agile than you seem to give it credit for.

[bloodyminded]

Interesting how you refer to the U.S. as Amerikkka, as you anticipate doing more business with China.

Isn't it?

[dre]

It's not a matter of nations setting priorities, it's a matter of businesses seeking profits. Private enterprise is much more agile than you seem to give it credit for.

Youre drastically underestimating whats involved. Moving off of petroleum for our principle source of transportation fuel is probably the biggest and most expensive project we have ever attempted. It will take many decades and many trillions of dollars in capital investment, and it will require a huge effort in both the public and private sector.

Todays plant designs wont even start constuction for another 10 or 20 years.

And building new energy infrastructure is only part of the problem. Weve also neglected all our existing infrastructure and theres a glut of plants that will need to be CLOSED in the next 20 years... including most of the nuclear plants in North America.

Meanwhile it took car companies almost 30 years to bring decent electric and hybrid cars to market and it only happened once the government started subsidizing sales.

[Bonam]

Youre drastically underestimating whats involved. Moving off of petroleum for our principle source of transportation fuel is probably the biggest and most expensive project we have ever attempted. It will take many decades and many trillions of dollars in capital investment, and it will require a huge effort in both the public and private sector.

The problem with your view of this "project" is that you see it as all costs and investments. But the reality is that it is also profits. People will be buying these new vehicles and car companies will be making money off them.

In regards to infrastructure, it's already essentially there. You can charge electric cars off 240V outlets pretty quick, and these exist at most homes, gas stations, office buildings, etc.

Todays plant designs wont even start constuction for another 10 or 20 years.

I'm not talking about new plant designs. We in the West have long since decided that building new designs should be pretty close to completely banned. We love funding research and innovation, and we love businesses that innovate and create new products on the small scale, for consumers, etc, but new power reactor designs? Forget it. Impossible to get through bloated regulatory agencies. But building dirty old coal plants to replace oil plants as they shut down is no big deal. Building a coal power plant is very routine.

And building new energy infrastructure is only part of the problem. Weve also neglected all our existing infrastructure and theres a glut of plants that will need to be CLOSED in the next 20 years... including most of the nuclear plants in North America.

Yep, we've completely sabotaged our long term capability to harness nuclear energy, the only viable source of large amounts of clean energy. The end result will be that we have to build a bunch of coal plants to take up the load as the nuclear reactors shut down. Environmental concerns will always be secondary to the necessity to provide the required amount of electricity. We can run off coal for hundreds of years yet, it is not scarce in the way that oil is scarce. Alternately, we'll be building undersea power cables so we can buy power from China where they will be building hundreds of new nuclear reactors.

Meanwhile it took car companies almost 30 years to bring decent electric and hybrid cars to market and it only happened once the government started subsidizing sales.

The competition being 5 times more expensive ($500 oil) would have a bigger impact than any subsidy ever could.

[Topaz]

Instead, Canada/Ontario are working hard on a new bridge to Detroit!

The US recognized years ago that Canada would no longer be its #1 trading partner eventually, to be displaced by Mexico and China.

That bridge is part of the superhighway in North America which will go up to the far north and down to the deep south of mexico. The cost of the bridge goes from 500 million to 2 billion and Canada will have to collect the tolls to get its back. Although, I`ve some Republicans in Michigan are still not on board 100%.

[bush_cheney2004]

That bridge is part of the superhighway in North America which will go up to the far north and down to the deep south of mexico. The cost of the bridge goes from 500 million to 2 billion and Canada will have to collect the tolls to get its back. Although, I`ve some Republicans in Michigan are still not on board 100%.

Canada wants the bridge....let Canada pay for it. Keep Ontario's garbage out of Michigan landfills!

[Topaz]

Canada wants the bridge....let Canada pay for it. Keep Ontario's garbage out of Michigan landfills!

You are behind times, the garbage hasn't been going over the border for a while, it goes to London and other dumps. Canada is paying the intial cost , which Canadians don't know because the Tories have kept alot secret or quiet. The owner of the present bridge said they are more than willing to add another span to the bridge but the Tories want to own it.

[Topaz]

Here`s more on that bridge, which will be a US-Canadian owned. Canada is paying 500 MIL up front and the res tof the story is here... http://www.clickondetroit.com/money/27563362/detail.html

[bush_cheney2004]

You are behind times, the garbage hasn't been going over the border for a while, it goes to London and other dumps.

Oh I knew that allright (was discussed here at length)....it's just fun to remind you of it.

Canada is paying the intial cost , which Canadians don't know because the Tories have kept alot secret or quiet. The owner of the present bridge said they are more than willing to add another span to the bridge but the Tories want to own it.

Then Canada can pay for it...as AW pointed out, the Americans paid for the first one years ago because Ontario war poor.

[Topaz]

Oh I knew that allright (was discussed here at length)....it's just fun to remind you of it.

Then Canada can pay for it...as AW pointed out, the Americans paid for the first one years ago because Ontario war poor.

The really stupid thing about this bridge is the owner of the Ambassador Bridge is more than willing to spent big bucks to put another span in. There's also reports that traffic is down at the bridge, true, who knows, so the Tories are spending half billion just so Canada can own it? Of course, they also say they can buy the F-35 for 75 Million per plane, yeah right!

[Oleg Bach]

Actually a lot of the big US companies are divesting, and being offset by investment from China.

CHINA CHINA CHINA...the west sends them money - they send us super poor quality merchandize - we dump the stuff in the land fill - and China takes the profits and builds new air craft carriers to harrass us with at a later date - what the hell were we thinking?

[Oleg Bach]

Canada wants the bridge....let Canada pay for it. Keep Ontario's garbage out of Michigan landfills!

Canada or shall I say Toronto is the greatest producer of garbage on earth.....you would not believe what a poor guy like me tosses out. There is not place to even store the stuff prior pick up day ---- what I do because I live at a major intersections is ----- I have garbage day on Monday - and on Wednesday...and the city gives you these tiny little garbage cans that are always over flowing - so we need Michigan.....actally B C - we could send the stuff your way and you could pile it up and have a ski hill in a couple of years...most of the stuff will be wrapping made in China...and it was YOUR government that encouraged more trade with China - hence now more garbage - think of it as recycling.

[Michael Hardner]

Canada or shall I say Toronto is the greatest producer of garbage on earth.....you would not believe what a poor guy like me tosses out. There is not place to even store the stuff prior pick up day ---- what I do because I live at a major intersections is ----- I have garbage day on Monday - and on Wednesday...and the city gives you these tiny little garbage cans that are always over flowing - so we need Michigan.....actally B C - we could send the stuff your way and you could pile it up and have a ski hill in a couple of years...most of the stuff will be wrapping made in China...and it was YOUR government that encouraged more trade with China - hence now more garbage - think of it as recycling.

You should have a green bin, blue bin and grey bin.

[Oleg Bach]

You should have a green bin, blue bin and grey bin.

Who ever got the contract to create all these bins should get a good kick in the ass. The amount of plastic used to make these containers created such a huge carbon foot print that it will take a twenty years to catch up. My pet peeve is that the two bins on wheels that I have appear full size but have a false bottom half way up - as IF the city is attempting you to curb your consumption and generation of waste - which is stupid - also - who ever designed them made them to low - you have to stoop like a monkey to wheel them out to the curb - did no one ever test these things with real humans?

They probably tested them digitally....I hate them...I feel like a jerk all hunched over dragging these stupid things...I have no green bin because I do not waste food. I do recycle simply because it keeps my garbage pile at a minimum. It was better when we used garbage bags...they were better....I have so much recyclables that I have to use a clear bag ---and the collectors don't like it because I have not jammed them into the approved recycle bin that is too small.

The other thing that bugs me are the stupid public garbage containers on the street with all the moving parts and the thought that someone made millions making these things that over flow and break down!

[Michael Hardner]

Who ever got the contract to create all these bins should get a good kick in the ass. The amount of plastic used to make these containers created such a huge carbon foot print that it will take a twenty years to catch up.

Source ?

[M.Dancer]

People thought the EU was nothing but a conpsiracy theory before as well.

What people? Do you have any references that support this claim?

[GostHacked]

What people? Do you have any references that support this claim?

Oh, you still post here?

Also, looks like the EU had their 50th anniversary.

http://www.cfr.org/eu/50th-anniversary-eu-re-launch-immediately-counter-risk-disaggregation/p12946

I guess most do not even know that the EU is 50 years old.

Europeans have much to be proud of on the 50th anniversary of the Rome Treaty. The political and economic integration of Europe is one of the most significant developments of our time. It constitutes nothing less than a geopolitical revolution that transformed intractable rivals into a community in which war has become unthinkable.

Edited June 13, 2011 by GostHacked

[M.Dancer]

Oh, you still post here?

That is apropos to what?

Also, looks like the EU had their 50th anniversary.

Yes, four years ago....

I guess most do not even know that the EU is 50 years old.

It's a certainty you didn't, given it's 54 years old

Now please tell me about the conspiracy theories you are claiming, or was that a guess as well and where long dead Rothchilds part of the creation?

[GostHacked]

Now please tell me about the conspiracy theories you are claiming, or was that a guess as well and where long dead Rothchilds part of the creation?

I'll reply with something you posted....

I am always amused when some suggests because they haven't seen something, they assume there is nothing to see.

Edited June 13, 2011 by GostHacked

[M.Dancer]

I'll reply with something you posted....

Today huh?

That explains the 4 year old EU anniversary post anyway...

Let me help you, you seem addled...

I am not claiming that People DIDN'T think the EU was nothing but a conpsiracy theory before as well.

I am asking you to back up your claim.

People thought the EU was nothing but a conpsiracy theory before as well.

And since you have posted my comment, you might have noticed I backed up my rebuttal.

Are you able to do the same?

[Michael Hardner]

I am asking you to back up your claim.

Are you asking for a claim that there are paranoid people out there who see conspiracies in everything ?