1.40L for gas

[dre]

:angry:

It's actually pretty simple. If we want cheaper gasoline, we need to produce more of it, and refine more of it, closer by. Until that happens, everyone needs to STFU.

Actually its not that simple at all. The price of oil isnt just based on supply and demand its a futures market. The price is based on speculating on global economic growth, and on exploration yields. Canada would have to withdraw from the petroleum exchange system to significantly lower our own prices by ramping up production.

[August1991]

I go on trips to the mountains every weekend with my friends and am usually the driver. The car allows me to do this, it certainly serves its purpose. And yes, it allows freedom of movement as TimG mentioned.

No. I have an extension of my home which provides transportation where and when I need it. The freedom has value.

Bonam and TimG, those are costly call options, or expensive furniture.

----

I have a friend who buys his call options differently. He rents a car for the weekend, or takes a taxi. As he says, he gets to try all the models.

(BTW, he didn't like the Smart Car.)

Edited May 13, 2011 by August1991

[TimG]

Bonam and TimG, those are costly call options, or expensive furniture.

If I can afford it what is the problem? Almost everything that people buy is determined their desire for comfort, convenience or status. Economics only comes into play if people think they have better things to do with their money.

[dre]

That might be true somewhere, averaged over all kinds of ridiculous gas-guzzling vehicles and low American insurance rates, but it certainly isn't true for me. The biggest expense is the cost of the car itself ($350 per month), the second biggest expense is insurance (in Vancouver, I paid $250/month). That's $600 per month whether or not I drove the car at all. Replacing a door due to a scratch someone caused in it in a parking lot cost $3000, that's more than I've spent on fuel in the whole time I've owned a car. My fuel expenses are about $60 per month, about one tenth of monthly payments + insurance. Fuel could triple in price and it would still remain a lower cost than car insurance.

I honestly don't understand why people always moan about the costs of heating their house, using electricity, or filling their car. These things are all super cheap. Less than $100 per month for me for all those three combined. Maybe people need to learn to be less wasteful and stop driving 50 ton main battle tanks as their daily commute vehicle?

I honestly don't understand why people always moan about the costs of heating their house, using electricity, or filling their car. These things are all super cheap. Less than $100 per month for me for all those three combined.

Your situation is pretty unusual. I spend about 100 bux a month just on fuel... electricity during the winter months is over 250 per month. Im thinking you live in a VERY small house, and have room-mates?

As for why people moan... the costs of these things are increasing faster than their wages. And these costs are a way bigger part of most people's budgets then you think.

[Bonam]

Bonam and TimG, those are costly call options, or expensive furniture.

----

I have a friend who buys his call options differently. He rents a car for the weekend, or takes a taxi. As he says, he gets to try all the models.

(BTW, he didn't like the Smart Car.)

Renting a car every weekend would be a pain. For one, we usually leave town at 4-5am, and renting a car and getting all the gear over to it would add at least an extra hour of crap to do in the morning, or in the evening before, which would not be desirable at all. Having a car is definitely worthwhile for my lifestyle. It's also useful when I want to go to the store and stock up on a week's worth of groceries, or for transporting any kind of heavy/bulky items, which I do fairly often, or to go visit my friends/family in Vancouver, etc. Trust me, I definitely gave lengthy consideration to whether having a car would be worth it when I was buying it.

[August1991]

Having a car is definitely worthwhile for my lifestyle.

Sometimes call options are worth the price.

[Bonam]

Your situation is pretty unusual. I spend about 100 bux a month just on fuel... electricity during the winter months is over 250 per month. Im thinking you live in a VERY small house, and have room-mates?

I live in an apartment, by myself. I spent $270 on electricity during the entire last calendar year (and yes we do pay for our own heating and AC in this apartment building).

As for why people moan... the costs of these things are increasing faster than their wages. And these costs are a way bigger part of most people's budgets then you think.

Like I said, wasteful. Seriously, $250/month on electricity... that's about 5000 kWh. So at any given time, on average, you are using 7 kW of energy. That is frankly crazy, what could you possibly need 7 kW for on average? Most of the time all the power I'm using at my place is 2-3 7 W lightbulbs and my computer which takes about 300 W. Then there's the water heater but that only runs for a short period of time when I'm using hot water. Microwave/oven are only used for short periods. In a typical home the most energy intensive thing is a dryer, and again, only used a small fraction of the time.

If you are burning 7 kW average just heating your home, you either have a very large home, have very poor insulation, or enjoy very tropical temperatures.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Bonam

[RNG]

Given that the new trend in extraction (sagd) is highly dependant on fresh water supplies and typically only nets about 30% of the bitumen from the area, those estimates seem pretty high to me.

The reserves are there, the question is if we'll be able to economically get at any more than about a third of those reserves.

SAGD is a relatively small part of it. Surface mining is the big thing. And I think the THAI will supersede SAGD. No water requirements and better recovery.

And for the record, conventional reservoirs seldom surrender 30% of what they contain.

Edited May 13, 2011 by RNG

[dre]

I live in an apartment, by myself. I spent $270 on electricity during the entire last calendar year (and yes we do pay for our own heating and AC in this apartment building).

Like I said, wasteful. Seriously, $250/month on electricity... that's about 5000 kWh. So at any given time, on average, you are using 7 kW of energy. That is frankly crazy, what could you possibly need 7 kW for on average? Most of the time all the power I'm using at my place is 2-3 7 W lightbulbs and my computer which takes about 300 W. Then there's the water heater but that only runs for a short period of time when I'm using hot water. Microwave/oven are only used for short periods. In a typical home the most energy intensive thing is a dryer, and again, only used a small fraction of the time.

If you are burning 7 kW average just heating your home, you either have a very large home, have very poor insulation, or enjoy very tropical temperatures.

I live in an apartment, by myself. I spent $270 on electricity during the entire last calendar year (and yes we do pay for our own heating and AC in this apartment building).

That explains it.

Like I said, wasteful. Seriously, $250/month on electricity... that's about 5000 kWh. So at any given time, on average, you are using 7 kW of energy. That is frankly crazy, what could you possibly need 7 kW for on average? Most of the time all the power I'm using at my place is 2-3 7 W lightbulbs and my computer which takes about 300 W.

Its actually pretty typical. My house is about 1900 feet not including my shop, and its very well insulated. Walls are all r20+, roof is about double that. Most of those that is hitting and like I said my bills are only that big during the coldest months.

And you saying thats wastefull is no different than August saying you shouldnt own a car. Could I save money by living in an apartment or in a mobile home park? Sure... but thats a pretty huge hit to my standard of living.

Anyhow this explains why you would have a hard time understanding why people "moan" about these kind of expenses. Your average Canadian doesnt live alone in a two lightbulb apartment. I guarantee you wont be scoffing at these expenses one you actually have them.

[Guest Derek L]

That might be true somewhere, averaged over all kinds of ridiculous gas-guzzling vehicles and low American insurance rates, but it certainly isn't true for me. The biggest expense is the cost of the car itself ($350 per month), the second biggest expense is insurance (in Vancouver, I paid $250/month). That's $600 per month whether or not I drove the car at all. Replacing a door due to a scratch someone caused in it in a parking lot cost $3000, that's more than I've spent on fuel in the whole time I've owned a car. My fuel expenses are about $60 per month, about one tenth of monthly payments + insurance. Fuel could triple in price and it would still remain a lower cost than car insurance.

I honestly don't understand why people always moan about the costs of heating their house, using electricity, or filling their car. These things are all super cheap. Less than $100 per month for me for all those three combined. Maybe people need to learn to be less wasteful and stop driving 50 ton main battle tanks as their daily commute vehicle?

$60 a month? Thats not bad.....

WRT people being "wasteful" (just filled up my Diesel pickup for the week, ~$150), is that any different then you going up in the hills on the weekend.....I like my land yachts ability to tow a 5th wheel or my boat....It's all about personal choices.....I might seem wasteful to you, just as you seem wasteful to August. Same with home heating/hydro.

The ones I feel for are the people in buisness.

[Bonam]

$60 a month? Thats not bad.....

WRT people being "wasteful" (just filled up my Diesel pickup for the week, ~$150), is that any different then you going up in the hills on the weekend.....

One of the least wasteful hobbies out there. Not to mention, if my home was burning 7 kW while I was in it, I'd actually save energy by driving out to the mountains and not heating the home while I was out there.

[dpwozney]

Today, the Industry Minister Tony, say he wants to get the gas ceo's to Ottawa and find out why prices are so high. ...

Energy companies probably are passing on the cost of carbon taxes, the cost of artificial capture and sequestration of carbon dioxide, and other Kyoto accord related costs, to gasoline buyers.

[Guest Derek L]

One of the least wasteful hobbies out there. Not to mention, if my home was burning 7 kW while I was in it, I'd actually save energy by driving out to the mountains and not heating the home while I was out there.

GMC Denali 3500HD = Jabba's sail barge

[Guest American Woman]

That might be true somewhere, averaged over all kinds of ridiculous gas-guzzling vehicles and low American insurance rates, but it certainly isn't true for me. The biggest expense is the cost of the car itself ($350 per month), the second biggest expense is insurance (in Vancouver, I paid $250/month) That's $600 per month whether or not I drove the car at all..

Not everyone has a car payment and not everyone pays that high of an insurance premium. For some people fuel is the biggest monthly expense. So really, what you are saying has nothing to do with the topic except for where you are coming from.

Replacing a door due to a scratch someone caused in it in a parking lot cost $3000, that's more than I've spent on fuel in the whole time I've owned a car.

That's more than I've spent for such repairs in the whole time I've owned a car. That's what insurance is for.

My fuel expenses are about $60 per month, about one tenth of monthly payments + insurance. Fuel could triple in price and it would still remain a lower cost than car insurance.

Again, that's you, and therefore is rather meaningless to anyone else. Furthermore, the cost of fuel affects a lot more than one's personal gas budget; it affects consumer prices, as the more it costs to transport food, clothing, whatever, the higher the price. It also affects airline tickets, cruise prices, bus tickets, taxi fares, etc. Also, some people have family living out of town, out of state/province, and it costs to see them. Others go to university and have to pay high prices for visits home at a time when they aren't making a lot of money. Others live out in the country and have to drive quite a few miles into work. The fact that your fuel expenses are $60 a month means nothing. Furthermore, I don't care if I can afford it; I don't care to line the pockets of the oil people for no reason. I'd just as soon have the money in my pocket. Just as I wouldn't appreciate having my mortgage suddenly raised, or the price of a loaf of bread skyrocketing for no reason. Last but not least, even if one does have a car payment, the car is an asset. Not so a tank of gas. (At least not yet....)

I honestly don't understand why people always moan about the costs of heating their house, using electricity, or filling their car. These things are all super cheap. Less than $100 per month for me for all those three combined. Maybe people need to learn to be less wasteful and stop driving 50 ton main battle tanks as their daily commute vehicle?

You need to see outside your own world in order to understand where others are coming from. You certainly don't represent everyone's situation by any means. Not everyone can exist on $60/mo. fuel or your heating/electricity costs just because you can. Everyone isn't single. Some people have families. Some people have houses. Some families with kids have two vehicles and one income. Seriously. The idea that you lay out your situation as some kind of argument that the cost of fuel is no big deal is really, totally off the wall and totally irrelevant to others.

Edited May 13, 2011 by American Woman

[guyser]

Not everyone has a car payment

He also did not factor in the value of the car upon sale, which could very well be $10,000 back to him, thus reducing the net amount of that car payment to maybe $200, but thats speculative .

his example is very low.....very very low, almost silly low. If it is a $350 a month payment, trips to the mountains with equipment.....

I go to the cottage every weekend, and I cant do it on $60 return let alone a week and my car gets just under 25 mpg.

[GostHacked]

$1.40L? Good Lord, I thought gas was expensive here at $4.00 a gallon. How much was it a few months ago? Did you have a sharp increase lately, too?

2 years ago when I bought my car. It cost me about 45-50 to fill it. Now the cost is about 70-75.

But what is really the kicker, is places like Iran, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Libya ect are all paying under 50 cents a litre.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_gas_pri-energy-gasoline-prices

Iran and Iraq are under 10 cents a litre.

Guess I am going to be riding the 'hog' more this year. My vehicles are 1997 Subaru Impreza, and a 2000 Yamaha V-Star 1100.

Edited May 13, 2011 by GostHacked

[Bonam]

Not everyone has a car payment and not everyone pays that high of an insurance premium. For some people fuel is the biggest monthly expense. So really, what you are saying has nothing to do with the topic except for where you are coming from.

Even if the car is already paid off, you can still figure out what its effective monthly cost is by taking how much was originally paid for it and dividing it by how many months you plan to own it. For example, if you bought a car for $20k and then drive it for 8 years, that's a monthly cost of $208 over the car's lifespan.

Sure, some people might buy an old beater for just a few grand and then drive it for a decade or two til it totally falls apart but that's not a majority situation either.

Again, that's you, and therefore is rather meaningless to anyone else. Furthermore, the cost of fuel affects a lot more than one's personal gas budget; it affects consumer prices, as the more it costs to transport food, clothing, whatever, the higher the price. It also affects airline tickets, cruise prices, bus tickets, taxi fares, etc.

I'd be curious to see some properly sourced numbers as to the % of the cost of the food and clothes in the stores near where I live that is accounted for by the gasoline component of their transportation costs. I suspect that it would be a very small component of the overall cost of the products.

Also, some people have family living out of town, out of state/province, and it costs to see them. Others go to university and have to pay high prices for visits home at a time when they aren't making a lot of money.

Those are both the case for me.

Others live out in the country and have to drive quite a few miles into work. The fact that your fuel expenses are $60 a month means nothing. Furthermore, I don't care if I can afford it; I don't care to line the pockets of the oil people for no reason. I'd just as soon have the money in my pocket.

It's not "no reason". You are "lining their pockets" only to the extent that you want to purchase gasoline. If you don't want to buy their product, or want to buy less of it, that is your option.

Just as I wouldn't appreciate having my mortgage suddenly raised, or the price of a loaf of bread skyrocketing for no reason. Last but not least, even if one does have a car payment, the car is an asset. Not so a tank of gas. (At least not yet....)

Well, food prices are going up too. And mortgage payments will soon too when the interest rates start to be raised up from the current record lows. You don't have to appreciate it, you just have to live with it.

You need to see outside your own world in order to understand where others are coming from. You certainly don't represent everyone's situation by any means. Not everyone can exist on $60/mo. fuel or your heating/electricity costs just because you can. Everyone isn't single. Some people have families. Some people have houses.

Presumably, by the time people have houses, they are no longer living on a student's budget. Not only that, if they aren't single, their family presumably has two incomes, unless they've made a conscious choice for one parent to stay at home because their financial situation is adequate on just one income.

Some families with kids have two vehicles and one income.

Certainly, my parents for example. Guess what cost them a lot more than the fuel? The two vehicles. And the insurance too.

Seriously. The idea that you lay out your situation as some kind of argument that the cost of fuel is no big deal is really, totally off the wall and totally irrelevant to others.

If the cost of fuel is a big deal to someone they have the option of getting a more fuel efficient vehicle, carpooling, driving less, etc. If you are really in the situation where the cost of a car is less than the cost of the fuel, it is well past time to upgrade to something more efficient. Besides that, just moaning and whining about high gas prices does nothing. I am particularly perplexed by those here who are concerned about environmental issues whining about the price of gas, since there is no surer way to spur reduced gas consumption and faster innovation of green technology.

[Bonam]

his example is very low.....very very low, almost silly low. If it is a $350 a month payment, trips to the mountains with equipment.....

I go to the cottage every weekend, and I cant do it on $60 return let alone a week and my car gets just under 25 mpg.

35-37 mpg on the highway here. Gotta love the Honda Fit. Can usually get it a lot higher on the way back, cruising in neutral as we drop elevation. Not to mention, when we go on those trips, we split gas costs among everyone in the car, and people usually give a few bucks extra as a "thanks" to the driver, hence reducing my actual costs for those trips to close to zero. But a typical trip is 100-200 miles round trip, which is about 3-6 gallons, which is about $12 to $24. 4 of those a month at around $16 or whatever on average is just over $60. And I bike to school/work so...

I do occasionally drive to see my parents which is about 350 miles round trip and no one to split the costs with, but that entails staying at home and eating for free for however long I'm there so it saves money overall too.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Bonam

[Bonam]

2 years ago when I bought my car. It cost me about 45-50 to fill it. Now the cost is about 70-75.

But what is really the kicker, is places like Iran, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Libya ect are all paying under 50 cents a litre.

I'd still take living in Canada or the US and paying higher gas prices than any of those places Btw, you should compare the average income of someone in those countries to the average income of a North American. To them, the 50c/L is probably a good deal more expensive than $1.40/L is to you.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Bonam

[Wilber]

I have a 1 ton diesel pickup to tow a trailer and a collector car with a 7.2 liter hypo engine which uses lots of premium gas. Both get lousy mileage. However, my 2004 VW diesel daily driver costs me less than $1500 per year for fuel even at today's prices, which leaves me some money to run the toys.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Wilber

[Guest American Woman]

Even if the car is already paid off, you can still figure out what its effective monthly cost is by taking how much was originally paid for it and dividing it by how many months you plan to own it. For example, if you bought a car for $20k and then drive it for 8 years, that's a monthly cost of $208 over the car's lifespan.

Sure, some people might buy an old beater for just a few grand and then drive it for a decade or two til it totally falls apart but that's not a majority situation either.

Not all old/used cars are "old beaters" and driven until they "fall apart," either. Many old cars, other than the style, look just as "new" as new cars. No rust, no dents, no peeling paint, perfect running condition. The only thing different is the style. And yes, many people do buy used cars -- for well under $20k; cars that look and run just as good as new cars other than the design. But again, the more expensive the car, the higher the "asset." It's not comparable to gas because a tank of gas, as I pointed out, is not an asset; it doesn't have any value.

I'd be curious to see some properly sourced numbers as to the % of the cost of the food and clothes in the stores near where I live that is accounted for by the gasoline component of their transportation costs. I suspect that it would be a very small component of the overall cost of the products.

Small percentage of the total cost or not, it does account for a rise in price, and when one adds up the individual cost on each item over the course of weeks and months, it adds up and can become a problem for people on a budget.

Those are both the case for me.

If those are both the case for you, you aren't living very far from home or you aren't living on $60/mo for gas. Furthermore, if you are going to university and not making much money, you have money coming from some other source if you choose to have a vehicle with that high of a monthly payment. Many university students don't have that kind of cash available.

It's not "no reason". You are "lining their pockets" only to the extent that you want to purchase gasoline. If you don't want to buy their product, or want to buy less of it, that is your option.

Of course it's for no reason. If the bank suddenly raised your car payment because they wanted to line their pockets, if banks didn't have to have contracts but you were at their whim regarding the interest rate you were charged, if your landlord could just raise your rent at his whim, I'm sure you wouldn't see it as just fine; your reaction wouldn't be that if you didn't want to have a house or an apartment it would be your option. The bank would be just fine operating that way. Right? Same with other products we buy and need.

Again. The cost of gasoline affects the price of all transportation. Perhaps people could just walk the 20 miles to work each day.

Your argument is ludicrous. For people who need to drive to work, who need to drive to see family, gas is a necessity, not a luxury that they can choose to buy or not and choosing to drive less isn't an option when work is x number of miles away.

Well, food prices are going up too.

Yes, they are; partly because of the cost of transporting it. Furthermore, it's consistent with a normal rise in the cost of living. And it's not making the farmers rich.

And mortgage payments will soon too when the interest rates start to be raised up from the current record lows. You don't have to appreciate it, you just have to live with it.

Mortgage rates don't fluctuate wildly just so the bankers can get rich. Furthermore, banks are regulated, so why not oil companies? Which is a lot of people's view.

Presumably, by the time people have houses, they are no longer living on a student's budget. Not only that, if they aren't single, their family presumably has two incomes, unless they've made a conscious choice for one parent to stay at home because their financial situation is adequate on just one income.

Sometimes people make due with a less than "adequate" financial situation because they want one parent to be home raising their kids or the cost of daycare isn't worth the salary. Furthermore, I'm guessing for someone paying out 80% of their income on a mortgage, gas doubling is seen as a problem; especially if they have to drive any distance to work every day. That you can't understand why people complain about rising gas prices revolves around a very "me" oriented point of view.

Certainly, my parents for example. Guess what cost them a lot more than the fuel? The two vehicles. And the insurance too.

Well there you go. You and yours again. Obviously your parents aren't just starting out. They aren't saving for a down payment, paying back student loans, paying for daycare for all their children, etc. Individual scenarios do not speak for everyone, and in effect you are saying you can't understand how anyone who isn't in the same situation as you/your family feels. Very narrow minded at best.

If the cost of fuel is a big deal to someone they have the option of getting a more fuel efficient vehicle, carpooling, driving less, etc.

No, everyone doesn't have the option of buying a different vehicle, of carpooling, of driving less. Do you honestly not understand that? Furthermore, the idea that you think being forced to do this is just fine as you have no problem with oil companies getting richer, as you can't understand why people would complain about rising gas prices, really makes me wonder where your head is at.

If you are really in the situation where the cost of a car is less than the cost of the fuel, it is well past time to upgrade to something more efficient.

When you say "more efficient," you are in effect saying "new," and not everyone can afford a new car payment. It's easy to say 'it's time for someone to do this that or the other thing,' but to not recognize that everyone isn't in the situation to be able to do so, that everyone doesn't want to do that without complaint, but should rather say 'oh, well, no big deal if the gas companies are raising their prices for no reason....,' as the oil companies enjoy government benefits that the pubic at large doesn't, is hard to figure. Your solutions, and expectation that no one complain, are really far out there.

Besides that, just moaning and whining about high gas prices does nothing. I am particularly perplexed by those here who are concerned about environmental issues whining about the price of gas, since there is no surer way to spur reduced gas consumption and faster innovation of green technology.

People "whine" and "moan" about a lot of things that they have a legitimate reason to complain about. If enough people "whine" and "moan," perhaps our politicians will begin to worry that it could have an effect on them and do something about it.

Edited May 14, 2011 by American Woman

[WIP]

A point that needs to be made that doesn't fit in to the subject of "who" or "what" is causing gas prices to spike higher than world oil prices would justify, is that this crap is going to run out eventually, and the sooner the better! Present day North American culture has been built around the concept of everyone owning a car and governments building lots of roads and highways to accommodate them. Well, what if we've reached the end of the automobile age? The trends that were established after WWII of people moving further and further away from where they work, will halt, and more and more people will have to move closer to where they work be able to shop and do things without having to drive to them...just like it was in the old days. I haven't seen the numbers, but I heard a point mentioned on U.S. public radio last week that America's car ownership peaked in 2004 and has been dropping since. This could be due to a number of factors, economic stagnation of middle and working classes, rising gas prices, rising insurance costs etc....the net effect is that our energy use is going to fall over the coming years whether we like the idea or not!

[dre]

A point that needs to be made that doesn't fit in to the subject of "who" or "what" is causing gas prices to spike higher than world oil prices would justify, is that this crap is going to run out eventually, and the sooner the better! Present day North American culture has been built around the concept of everyone owning a car and governments building lots of roads and highways to accommodate them. Well, what if we've reached the end of the automobile age? The trends that were established after WWII of people moving further and further away from where they work, will halt, and more and more people will have to move closer to where they work be able to shop and do things without having to drive to them...just like it was in the old days. I haven't seen the numbers, but I heard a point mentioned on U.S. public radio last week that America's car ownership peaked in 2004 and has been dropping since. This could be due to a number of factors, economic stagnation of middle and working classes, rising gas prices, rising insurance costs etc....the net effect is that our energy use is going to fall over the coming years whether we like the idea or not!

A point that needs to be made that doesn't fit in to the subject of "who" or "what" is causing gas prices to spike higher than world oil prices would justify, is that this crap is going to run out eventually, and the sooner the better!

We will stop using oil many decades before its all used up. It will become cost prohibitive once forcasted demand outstrips annual exploration yields. Im expanding on your point here not arguing it.

I haven't seen the numbers, but I heard a point mentioned on U.S. public radio last week that America's car ownership peaked in 2004 and has been dropping since. This could be due to a number of factors, economic stagnation of middle and working classes, rising gas prices, rising insurance costs etc....the net effect is that our energy use is going to fall over the coming years whether we like the idea or not!

Thats just the US though, an economy that has more or less peaked. In growth economies energy use will exponentially increase so while its true that the west will account for a smaller percentage of global energy use as time goes by the total ammount of energy used will increase rather rapidly over the next few decades.

To get an idea of the global energy profile in the decades to come a good comparison is the internet. Picture bandwidth use in the 80's VS now. Not only are people using way more, but its gotten much much cheaper. The same thing will happen with energy. In 100 years energy will cost a tiny fraction of what it does now and we will all use way more of it. Humans as a race dont do "conservation". We will develop technologies that produce energy for a fraction of what it costs today.

[Bonam]

Not all old/used cars are "old beaters" and driven until they "fall apart," either.

I never claimed they are.

Many old cars, other than the style, look just as "new" as new cars. No rust, no dents, no peeling paint, perfect running condition. The only thing different is the style. And yes, many people do buy used cars -- for well under $20k; cars that look and run just as good as new cars other than the design.

Cars in that condition cost enough that the cost of the vehicle would still be more than the cost of gas over the length of time that you drive that vehicle.

But again, the more expensive the car, the higher the "asset." It's not comparable to gas because a tank of gas, as I pointed out, is not an asset; it doesn't have any value.

The fact that the car is an "asset" doesn't really mean a lot, especially if you buy it new. By the time you're likely to consider reselling, it will have lost the majority of its asset value (unless its a collector's item or something). People buy a more expensive car so that they can have the features/comfort/performance/prestige of driving that more expensive car, not so that they can have a more valuable asset.

If those are both the case for you, you aren't living very far from home or you aren't living on $60/mo for gas. Furthermore, if you are going to university and not making much money, you have money coming from some other source if you choose to have a vehicle with that high of a monthly payment. Many university students don't have that kind of cash available.

I worked and saved during summer internships all throughout my university years, enough so to purchase a new car in senior year.

Of course it's for no reason. If the bank suddenly raised your car payment because they wanted to line their pockets, if banks didn't have to have contracts but you were at their whim regarding the interest rate you were charged, if your landlord could just raise your rent at his whim, I'm sure you wouldn't see it as just fine; your reaction wouldn't be that if you didn't want to have a house or an apartment it would be your option. The bank would be just fine operating that way. Right? Same with other products we buy and need.

The bank can change interest rates on things like mortgages where you redo a contract every 5 years, or agree to a variable interest rate contract. The landlord can raise his price every set period of time. These things happen due to factors far outside the individual's control. Yes, it might suck that when you bought a house, interest rates were at historic lows of 0.25% later and when you have to sign a new payment agreement in 5 years they've risen to say 7% or something and now your monthly payment has doubled, but that's the reality and the risk you take by taking on that debt. When you buy a car and expect to drive it, you have to take into account that fuel prices can fluctuate, and can also increase on average over time. My first memories of seeing gas prices at pumps was about $0.35/L. They're never going back to that cost. And I don't feel an entitlement to being able to purchase price at that cost nor do I plan my budget around that.

Again. The cost of gasoline affects the price of all transportation. Perhaps people could just walk the 20 miles to work each day.

Or perhaps they could bike. Biking 20 miles takes about an hour and is a great form of exercise. Would certainly help improve the obesity issues in the US too...

Your argument is ludicrous. For people who need to drive to work, who need to drive to see family, gas is a necessity, not a luxury that they can choose to buy or not and choosing to drive less isn't an option when work is x number of miles away.

Driving to see family is a want, not a need. Living far enough from work that your only option is to drive there is a choice people make, along with the risks and downsides that go along with it, such as the fact that their cost of going to and from work can vary due to gas prices.

Yes, they are; partly because of the cost of transporting it. Furthermore, it's consistent with a normal rise in the cost of living. And it's not making the farmers rich.

Er, agribusiness is raking in plenty of money in case you didn't know. Most of your food isn't provided by family farmers that are just scraping by any more. Food prices have skyrocketed recently due to speculation as well as subsidies for the use of food products to produce biofuels. The situation is the same as for gas, except that buying food really IS a necessity, unlike gas.

Mortgage rates don't fluctuate wildly just so the bankers can get rich. Furthermore, banks are regulated, so why not oil companies? Which is a lot of people's view.

No, mortgage rates instead fluctuate wildly so that the government can best "manage" the economy. Big difference. And oil companies ARE regulated too. Every company is.

Sometimes people make due with a less than "adequate" financial situation because they want one parent to be home raising their kids or the cost of daycare isn't worth the salary. Furthermore, I'm guessing for someone paying out 80% of their income on a mortgage, gas doubling is seen as a problem; especially if they have to drive any distance to work every day. That you can't understand why people complain about rising gas prices revolves around a very "me" oriented point of view.

Oh, I understand why people complain. It is natural human inclination to b*tch about stuff you can't change. It's not at all surprising. I just don't think its productive.

No, everyone doesn't have the option of buying a different vehicle, of carpooling, of driving less. Do you honestly not understand that? Furthermore, the idea that you think being forced to do this is just fine as you have no problem with oil companies getting richer, as you can't understand why people would complain about rising gas prices, really makes me wonder where your head is at.

If gas prices are truly the HIGHEST cost of ownership of a vehicle for someone, then it follows that they can reduce their costs of ownership by upgrading to a vehicle that has lower gas costs. The reality that buying a more efficient vehicle is expensive and the cost of the vehicle itself far outweighs the gas costs of even a very old and inefficient vehicle is only proof of my earlier statement: that gas is in fact only a small component of the cost of vehicle ownership, and that other things, like the cost of the vehicle itself, are far larger.

When you say "more efficient," you are in effect saying "new," and not everyone can afford a new car payment.

Not at all. There have been efficient vehicles being made for a long time. In fact, some of the most efficient vehicles are used civics and such from the 90s, since cars had much less mass back then, they have better gas mileage than the compact cars of today which have better engine technology.

It's easy to say 'it's time for someone to do this that or the other thing,' but to not recognize that everyone isn't in the situation to be able to do so, that everyone doesn't want to do that without complaint, but should rather say 'oh, well, no big deal if the gas companies are raising their prices for no reason....,' as the oil companies enjoy government benefits that the pubic at large doesn't, is hard to figure. Your solutions, and expectation that no one complain, are really far out there.

Again, it's not "no reason". The global economic forces that cause the fluctuations in the price of various commodities are not "no reason". People need to understand that commodities are not something that is created and discovered, then fixed in price by government decree, and then remain at that price in perpetuity. That's now how it works. No politician, no leader, has the power to create these resources for free out of nothing. They have a cost, and those costs are borne primarily by private entities, which are funded and owned by shareholders, who expect a return on their investments.

People "whine" and "moan" about a lot of things that they have a legitimate reason to complain about. If enough people "whine" and "moan," perhaps our politicians will begin to worry that it could have an effect on them and do something about it.

Politicians can change some things if you whine and moan about it enough. Other things are beyond their control. You can whine as much as you want about the rain and the cold in the winter, but no politician has the power to change that (well, global warming over century timescales aside). You can moan as much as you want about your husband not taking out the trash when you ask him to, but Obama can't fix that for you. Similarly, the price of oil is beyond the control of our political leaders. Even if they wanted to set fixed prices, by decree, for all oil companies under their jurisdiction, that would still barely make a dent in anything, as the majority of oil is produced elsewhere in the world. Or do you want some kind of supranational world body that can override the sovereignty of nations and force all corporations world wide to work at a decreed cost?

Edited May 15, 2011 by Bonam

[RNG]

Of interest to me is that if I am driving an older, bigger vehicle that gets 25 mpg, trade it in on an econobox that gets 50 mpg, and drive the typical 20,000 km per year, (sorry for the mixed units) I save $3,057 per year on gas at $1.40/l. What is the payout? Not talking environmental concerns, but purely economically that may not be the best decision.

FTR I do drive an econobox.

Edited May 15, 2011 by RNG