Ontario Fall election

[Wild Bill]

I think it's just a matter of perspective, then. You could be correct about what you're hearing aimed at conservatives, but you're wrong about how you perceive conservative debating behaviour. Dead wrong. The hatred is palpable.

I have learned that I"m immoral, that I don't care about people because of my "elitism" (this from blatant worshippers of elite wealth and power, interestingly), that I'm an anti-semite, and many other surprising facts.

Those aren't ideas: that's me.

Besides, blaming "the left" for Hitler, Pinochet and Milton Friedman do not comprise "ideas": it's wilfull stupidity, premised on the tautology that "if sumpin's bad...it must be liberal!"

But the personal attacks from the political Right aren't a problem? Oh, wait...they don't exist!

That may be "you" BM but I still think my perspective is correct. I think some of the "over the top criticism" from the 'right' comes from frustration. Some of it is simple resentment of being constantly declared an "evil" person (as in "If you supported Harris then you must be just as bad as him!)

I think most comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how a great number of "leftists" (I hate these labels but I have no other appropriate words!) think! Since those on the "right" tend to think in practical terms, leading from their "head" they will follow a leftist argument and reason the consequences, usually seeing that they can't work and will likely cost a great deal of money that could have been better spent.

The mistake made is that they assume those making the argument must also see those conclusions and therefore WANT those negative consequences, to satisfy some sort of hidden agenda! This of course is just as wacky as assuming that conservative politicians want to hurt the poor because they get some kind of perverse joy from it!

The reality is that virtually always the "leftist" making such proposals or calling for such programs has no understanding of any negative consequences at all! He or she leads with their "heart" and runs on the faith that goodness will always work and that all you have to do is believe! They have confidence that details will ALWAYS sort themselves out! They just don't think things all the way through like an equation or a flow chart. They will call for all babies to be issued free sugar water, so that no infant must cry! They never think those few extra steps and understand the dental danger. If challenged over their idea, they always will get their backs up and assume the challenger is just some mean person who is too evil to share their goal and WANTS babies to cry!

I know that sounds unfair but I have become convinced that socialists rarely come from technical backgrounds. I know there are socialist scientists but they are always botanists like David Suzuki, not physicists like Hawking or Feynman. Both groups simply think very, very differently!

There's no value judgement that can be placed on those of either camp. After all, any team made up of clones is only as good as any one member. Different players with different skills will make the team win far more often.

Our society is becoming much more politically polarized and I think we are the poorer for it.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Wild Bill

[bloodyminded]

That may be "you" BM but I still think my perspective is correct. I think some of the "over the top criticism" from the 'right' comes from frustration. Some of it is simple resentment of being constantly declared an "evil" person (as in "If you supported Harris then you must be just as bad as him!)

I think most comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how a great number of "leftists" (I hate these labels but I have no other appropriate words!) think! Since those on the "right" tend to think in practical terms, leading from their "head" they will follow a leftist argument and reason the consequences, usually seeing that they can't work and will likely cost a great deal of money that could have been better spent.

The mistake made is that they assume those making the argument must also see those conclusions and therefore WANT those negative consequences, to satisfy some sort of hidden agenda! This of course is just as wacky as assuming that conservative politicians want to hurt the poor because they get some kind of perverse joy from it!

The reality is that virtually always the "leftist" making such proposals or calling for such programs has no understanding of any negative consequences at all! He or she leads with their "heart" and runs on the faith that goodness will always work and that all you have to do is believe! They have confidence that details will ALWAYS sort themselves out! They just don't think things all the way through like an equation or a flow chart. They will call for all babies to be issued free sugar water, so that no infant must cry! They never think those few extra steps and understand the dental danger. If challenged over their idea, they always will get their backs up and assume the challenger is just some mean person who is too evil to share their goal and WANTS babies to cry!

I know that sounds unfair but I have become convinced that socialists rarely come from technical backgrounds. I know there are socialist scientists but they are always botanists like David Suzuki, not physicists like Hawking or Feynman. Both groups simply think very, very differently!

There's no value judgement that can be placed on those of either camp. After all, any team made up of clones is only as good as any one member. Different players with different skills will make the team win far more often.

Our society is becoming much more politically polarized and I think we are the poorer for it.

I agree with some of this, but I have serious doubts about the (self-labelled, self-indulgent) assertions of superior conservative "practicality."

As for your remarks that some conservatives may behave badly or in an insulting manner...because they have their backs up thanks to lefties' insults....why in the world could you not imagine the insulting lefties are coming from a similar place in this matter?

As for Hawking...while he doesn't speak much on political matters, the little he has said appears to place him firmly in the liberal camp; a proponent of universal healthcare, a proponent of the climate change concerns, and some offhand remarks about exploiting third world peoples (said in the context of possible alien life). None of these alone are proof positive of political leanings (which can be often complex in any case), but taken together, they are suggestive.

Edited August 30, 2011 by bloodyminded

[capricorn]

I frequently listen to John Tory on the radio in Toronto. He's far from a Blue Tory.

I listened to Tory interviewing McGuinty at length. It's on CFRB's video site. It sounded like a Liberal Party infomercial.

Today he was ballwashing McSqiggly about his platform for re-introducing house calls for doctors.

The provincial Liberals are promising to bring back house calls from doctors if they win the Oct. 6 election.

“House calls are coming back to Ontario so anyone who has difficulty getting to appointments will be cared for right in their homes,” said Heatlh Minister Deb Matthews. “It makes it easier for them to stay comfortably where they want to be.”

---

“This program is the next step forward, making it easier for doctors to provide this service, and easier for seniors to stay in their own homes,” said Dr. Mark Nowaczynski, leader of a not-for-profit service called House Calls.

“Our plan builds on our success in health care — more doctors, new hospitals, lower wait times, family health teams and community health clinics. We’re moving forward together, building a better Ontario for our children and grandchildren,” said a release on the plan.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/28/liberals-promise-house-calls-from-doctors

There is presently widespread abuse of hospital emergency services by folks who deem every sniffle and paper cut as an emergency. If doctor house calls become integrated in our health care program, I can imagine we will suddenly have a whole lot of patients with mobility issues. Another bottleneck in the making.

Almost half of those responding to a CBC poll think it's a good idea. I suppose some in agreement with house calls have a parent or relative they ferry to doctor's appointments on a regular basis. One less responsibility off their shoulders and passed on to the government/taxpayer.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2011/08/do-you-want-doctors-to-make-more-house-calls.html

[Wild Bill]

There is presently widespread abuse of hospital emergency services by folks who deem every sniffle and paper cut as an emergency. If doctor house calls become integrated in our health care program, I can imagine we will suddenly have a whole lot of patients with mobility issues. Another bottleneck in the making.

Almost half of those responding to a CBC poll think it's a good idea. I suppose some in agreement with house calls have a parent or relative they ferry to doctor's appointments on a regular basis. One less responsibility off their shoulders and passed on to the government/taxpayer.

"Almost half"? I'm surprised it wasn't a higher figure! Who wouldn't want the convenience of having the doctor come to you? And who cares how much it costs! It's all free, right?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I listened to Tory interviewing McGuinty at length. It's on CFRB's video site. It sounded like a Liberal Party infomercial.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/28/liberals-promise-house-calls-from-doctors

There is presently widespread abuse of hospital emergency services by folks who deem every sniffle and paper cut as an emergency. If doctor house calls become integrated in our health care program, I can imagine we will suddenly have a whole lot of patients with mobility issues. Another bottleneck in the making.

Almost half of those responding to a CBC poll think it's a good idea. I suppose some in agreement with house calls have a parent or relative they ferry to doctor's appointments on a regular basis. One less responsibility off their shoulders and passed on to the government/taxpayer.l

They need to be educated about Telehealth. I can sit and wait in my comfy chair watching netflix if I'm not sure if I need to see a doctor... If I need to see a doctor right away, usually I know these things.

[Wild Bill]

I agree with some of this, but I have serious doubts about the (self-labelled, self-indulgent) assertions of superior conservative "practicality."

As for your remarks that some conservatives may behave badly or in an insulting manner...because they have their backs up thanks to lefties' insults....why in the world could you not imagine the insulting lefties are coming from a similar place in this matter?

You have to remember BM, I'm old! I've followed trends for some decades now. The attitudes of those more in the left camp began to develop back in the 60's and has just started to peak. I hate conspiracy theories but you have to wonder. I do know from personal experience that the NDP here in Ontario, back in the 60's, pursued a well thought out strategy. At the time they were next to nothing as a political force in the province and were making little headway in getting more votes and more seats. So they targeted all the smaller positions, like municipal councilor positions that often would be won by acclamation anyway, or school board trustees. The goal was to gain influence at less obvious levels, levels that were not subject to party politics so it was never obvious if whoever won the position was an NDP'er.

By the time my children were in school (90's) they would often come home spouting the most outlandish comments on well known conservative politicians, like Mike Harris only caring for the rich and the Reform Party loved to see poor people suffer. Invariably, when I talked to them to find out where they were getting these ideas the root source would be a teacher!

It was never a case of constant, everyday incidents. Rather, it would be just a dropped comment perhaps every few weeks or months but what would happen is that the kids would pick up on it and swallow it unchallenged, just as they would swallow that Halifax is the capital of Nova Scotia. Parents who didn't like Harris or the Reform Party would never see a problem! They would blow it off as something trivial or even humorous. Of course, any negative comment against Bob Rae or David Petersen uttered by a parent on the school yard that could have been heard by the kids was treated as a crime against the universe.

Most of what I'm describing here BM I guess is really "group think" more than any conspiracy but that makes it even more effective. If you talk to students and young people it's amazing how many think that conservatives pursue their policies out of a deliberate policy of making the poor suffer. They really seem to think that Harper gets up every morning and says to himself "Now, let's find another poor guy and make his children starve! That would be so much fun!"

Hell BM, we've got posters on this very board that seem to believe that!

I don't ever recall any similar feelings the other way against the left over the years. As I said before, one would hear mocking of leftist policies as been "loopy" but I've never heard anyone describe Jack Layton as "evil". I do sense an attitude that Libby Davis is actually the typical NDP'er but that's about it.

It's almost as if someone has begun a meme that believes "liberal" means being a good person and "conservative" means a bad one. This is a purely emotional idea and there is no attempt to back it up with facts. As a typical example, I talked with one young lady about Christie Blatchford, the Toronto newspaper columnist, who had written a column about how Jack Layton's funeral had been hijacked into a political circus to advance the party's cause. The lass was livid and was calling for Blatchford to be banned from journalism!

BM, some of the things she was spouting were so over the top that I went home and googled the article to read it for myself. I didn't see ANY reason to take exception with what Blatchford had written. She had actually praised Layton as a person and only made fair political comment about the "circus". I confronted the lady again the following day and finally she admitted that she had never actually read the damn thing herself!

As so often happens, she was simply following along with a crowd. No one had made the effort to read and decide for themselves. Blatchford had been pegged by her peer group as a "conservative journalist" and that was enough. No need to read her words! She was an evil conservative and that was enough.

I know you can't plot a curve with only one data point but damnit BM, if you ask around you find that the poor dear is typical!

I'm saying that it is important to understand who started the prejudice first! I really believe that these attitudes have been deliberately created and sculpted by various groups on the left. Such propaganda techniques are well known, after all.

I love to talk with people and have a wide social circle. Over the past 10 years or so I have noticed, particularly with my musician customers, that it is harder and harder to discuss politics with them without those emotional prejudices that I've been talking about. Disagreeing with them is not looked at as the start of a delightful debate over a few beers but too often more a branding of one's self as an "evil conservative person" who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid. Worse yet, fewer and fewer of them are up to date on current events, not reading newspapers, watching the news on TV or even getting some from the Net. Yet they have extremely passionate beliefs, even though they have no argument or reason to defend them, beliefs that are always leftwing and accompanied with a great deal of vitriol against anything on the right.

I no longer participate in such discussions except with a very small group of personal friends. Too often it has gotten out of hand.

I don't 100% understand what's going on but I do know BM, the phenomenon is very, very real!

Edited August 30, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Argus]

The sad thing is that I could have voted for the old Progressives and felt good about it. Now they are regressive corporatists. A pock mark in Canadian history, I just hope we get out of it.

What the hell is a 'regressive corporatist"? Is that someone who won't bribe you with your own money like McGuinty is now doing? Who won't smile his big smile, tell you everything is fine, and offer up oodles of more promises?

Ontario has a $17 billion dollar annual deficit, and no plan for reducing it. McGuinty has not only increased taxes substantially but he's increased spending by, depending on who you listen to, between 60%-70% over his term in office. His games with "green power" have already increased power costs substantially, and he's admitted they'll go up another 50%, which has contributed to the calamaty of the manufacturing sector.

And for all the billions he's poured into health care there's pretty much ZERO noticeable improvement.

And you fear Hudak is going to do what, exactly, that's regressive? Stop borowing money?

[Smallc]

Ontario has a $17 billion dollar annual deficit, and no plan for reducing it.

$14B actually (it was less than originally predicted) and it will probably be eliminated ahead of the scheduled date of 2018.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/ontario-deficit-27-billion-less-than-projected/article2138863/

Edited September 1, 2011 by Smallc

[capricorn]

$14B actually (it was less than originally predicted)

As an Ontarian, I should feel good about this decreased deficit, but I don't.

and it will probably be eliminated ahead of the scheduled date of 2018.

These other feel good Liberal numbers will come in real handy during this election campaign.

[Smallc]

These other feel good Liberal numbers will come in real handy during this election campaign.

In all honestly, though he's spent too much, it isn't McGunity's fault. It has to do with the US, and there's really nothing and Ontario premier can do.

[capricorn]

In all honestly, though he's spent too much, it isn't McGunity's fault.

Too funny Smallc. See here for details.

http://www.noliberals.ca/

It has to do with the US, and there's really nothing and Ontario premier can do.

More campaign material that McGuinty has already rolled out.

[Smallc]

Too funny Smallc. See here for details.

http://www.noliberals.ca/

More campaign material that McGuinty has already rolled out.

I don't want him to win because he's ineffective in general, not because he created a deficit. He spent too much yes, but this really is the fault of former US administrations.

[capricorn]

He spent too much yes, but this really is the fault of former US administrations.

That is how you see it. Yet, in all media reports I've read and all Liberal ads I've seen, not once do Ontario Liberals target the US economic troubles as the reason for their economic decisions. No, it is the global economy, the global economic downturn that they say forced them into the spending and investments they made. It might just work.

[Smallc]

That is how you see it. Yet, in all media reports I've read and all Liberal ads I've seen, not once do Ontario Liberals target the US economic troubles as the reason for their economic decisions. No, it is the global economy, the global economic downturn that they say forced them into the spending and investments they made. It might just work.

That isn't a lie. The US, after all, is part of the global economy, and the industrialized global economy is shit right now. Canada is a rarity.

[capricorn]

That isn't a lie.

I didn't say it is. All I pointed out is that you attribute Ontario's woes to the US economy but McGuinty doesn't limit the problem to the US but to the world.

The US, after all, is part of the global economy, and the industrialized global economy is shit right now. Canada is a rarity.

You started off blaming the US economy then you expand it to the global economy. But I don't disagree with your basic premise.

[Smallc]

You started off blaming the US economy then you expand it to the global economy. But I don't disagree with your basic premise.

I'm not sure why you find that point so important. The US economy is of the largest impact on Canada, especially Ontario. The world economy in general, including the US economy, has an even larger impact on Ontario.

[capricorn]

The US economy is of the largest impact on Canada, especially Ontario.

Geez, Smallc, all I'm saying is that from what I've seen and read, in this election McGuinty is not pointing to the US as the source of Ontario's economic woes. That's it.

[Smallc]

Geez, Smallc, all I'm saying is that from what I've seen and read, in this election McGuinty is not pointing to the US as the source of Ontario's economic woes. That's it.

And I'm saying that I don't see why you find that to be important. Maybe I'm missing something.

[capricorn]

And I'm saying that I don't see why you find that to be important. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'll leave it at that. It's late here in Ottawa and past my bedtime. Maybe I'm the one missing something.

[Smallc]

I'll leave it at that. It's late here in Ottawa and past my bedtime. Maybe I'm the one missing something.

It's late here too...I'm not even really sure what we're arguing about anymore....

[Shady]

So how would you suggest that Martin balance the budget? They cut spending and reduced the size of government, while lowering taxes. That, to me, sounds like a conservative dream world. Oh, I forgot, the Liberals did it, so it's bad...

I agree. As I've said before. Paul Martin was an excellent finance minster.

[Mr.Canada]

I agree. As I've said before. Paul Martin was an excellent finance minster.

Gutting the military the EI fund equals "excellent"?

[Smallc]

Gutting the military the EI fund equals "excellent"?

So what should he have done?

[Mr.Canada]

So what should he have done?

I'm a conservative so my answer to everything is slash tax rates and burn wasteful government programs.

[Smallc]

I'm a conservative so my answer to everything is slash tax rates and burn wasteful government programs.

But the Department of National Defence is the largest government department. If they can't cut that, then what?