NDP: Official Opposition or Jack Layton as PM?

[Moonbox]

Thanks for letting us know how the system works.

Yes. It is allowed to happen. Thing is that it's annoying and finding consensus among some very ideologically opposed people can lead to some pretty bad decisions.

[nittanylionstorm07]

WTF is this?!? That isn't economics, that is your own pseudo-science BS you made up to justify your positions. You are clueless, quite spouting nonsense and go read an economics book.

Wow. That's the most magical and fantastical economics statement I've ever read on this board. nittany...would it be accurate to assume that your education in economics ended in high school?

Because the current system is working out so well for us?

We can't fix our system unless we start trying different things. This is what I want to do. Also, no, that is not accurate.

[Nonpartisanindv]

Gill Ducepts father actually started the NDP. This is why there is a coziness between the Bloc and NDP.

I had no idea, thanks. I was trying to tie the two together the other day and I could see some similarities but Ducept's father starting the NDP explains the coziness.

[wyly]

I do. I want to see a healthy business climate that encourages jobs to be created here. I want to keep the cost of living low by importing those things that can be produced cheaper elsewhere.

oh wait don't you want to keep corporate taxes low so jobs come here?...apparently not if you want things cheap then it's ok to have corporations leave to other shores no contradictions there

[wyly]

And it's not like the other two parties have always delivered brilliant Provincial governments either. Alberta is drowning in public debt, its "conservative" government having literally raped a decade or two's production, and it still has sucky public services.

alberta is wealthy despite the conservative party no matter how badly they fuck it up, a dozen drunken monkeys could do no worse...albertans are kind of smipleminded they credit the conservatives for oil in the ground...

[wyly]

It's not all about math. Low corporate taxes + free health care + CPP + political stability and other factors would make Canada an exceptionally attractive place for corporations to invest in and create jobs in.

low taxes are no assurance of corporate interest or survival, politically stable, you mean a one party state like MR canada advocates?...it's obvious why you have such a hate for the social sciences such as history you suck at it, free healthcare which gives us a competitve edge is a socialist creation CCF/NDP, Universal Pensions-CCF again ...any time you want to opt out of our social experiment feel free to give up your medicare and pension plan...

[mikedavid00]

Now you are the one being condescending.

If you insist on playing the fool, OK, so be it...

If you crack up taxes on business, large business, they will do one or both of two things:

1) leave

2) pass on the increased cost immediately and fully to consumers, who are also taxpayers.

There is no net gain in revenue that will give the billions to Layton he needs for big new programs.

I can try to explain again, but cannot get it into words smaller than one syllable for you.

Exactly.

You can try over and over but they just don't 'get it'. If they don't 'get it', they are people that have never worked in the private sector of paid a dime of tax.

I have been through 3 layoffs, seen a company fold with the whole building clearing out their desk in tears. I've been through this.

I've seen countless people open small business, just to fold all because the $1000 a month of property retail tax they have to pay per month made all the difference of the business staying alive of failing.

There's a reason our unemployment rates are so high and why for the last 20 years we've seen a steady decrease of business leaving Canada: taxes.

[cybercoma]

mike, just stop already. One of the candidates that ran in the provincial election for the NDP here in New Brunswick holds a PhD in economics and has been heavily published. Give it a rest.

[Scotty]

mike, just stop already. One of the candidates that ran in the provincial election for the NDP here in New Brunswick holds a PhD in economics and has been heavily published. Give it a rest.

And one of the candidates in Quebec works in a coffee shop, has never had any evident interest in politics, and is away on vacation now.

NDP candidate on vacation

Not the first NDP candidate we've heard about going off on vacation instead of bothering to campaign either. Mind you, since she works three hours away, in an Ottawa pub, it's hard to say the people of the riding would notice her absence.

[cybercoma]

Good thing she's not the leader of the party then, eh? My point is that it's pretty stupid to claim all NDP supporters and candidates are completely clueless about economics and have no job. If the NDP is good enough for a PhD in economics to run as their candidate in a provincial election, then I'm guessing their economic policies are not as disastrous as some claim.

[Shady]

Good thing she's not the leader of the party then, eh? My point is that it's pretty stupid to claim all NDP supporters and candidates are completely clueless about economics and have no job. If the NDP is good enough for a PhD in economics to run as their candidate in a provincial election, then I'm guessing their economic policies are not as disastrous as some claim.

I disagree. Ontario is the perfect example. All of Layton's policies are the same ones used in Ontario when the NDP were given a chance to govern. That went so well that they'll probably never win another Ontario election for the next 100 years.

[cybercoma]

I disagree. Ontario is the perfect example. All of Layton's policies are the same ones used in Ontario when the NDP were given a chance to govern. That went so well that they'll probably never win another Ontario election for the next 100 years.

Even if that were true, there's millions more voters today than there were 20 years ago. Moreover, Bob Rae is a Liberal and ran his Ontario government like a Liberal. I don't see Layton calling for "Rae Days" to cut the deficit. Give me a break. And besides, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. Nice diversion.

Edited April 27, 2011 by cybercoma

[nittanylionstorm07]

Seriously, enough with Bob Rae. The NDP have had plenty of successful provincial governments outside of Bob Rae, and Bob Rae is a liberal.

[Shwa]

Seriously, enough with Bob Rae. The NDP have had plenty of successful provincial governments outside of Bob Rae, and Bob Rae is a liberal.

Yes, but he wasn't a Liberal when he was dicking around as Premier of Ontario and people in Ontario seem to have a long memory about those Rae days... it counts.

[cybercoma]

It will count when he becomes leader of the Liberals, not before.

[nittanylionstorm07]

Yes, but he wasn't a Liberal when he was dicking around as Premier of Ontario and people in Ontario seem to have a long memory about those Rae days... it counts.

I guess we should then start painting the Conservatives as being all like Grant Devine.

[Shwa]

I guess we should then start painting the Conservatives as being all like Grant Devine.

Whatever floats your boat, but the 13 million people in Ontario don't really give a crap about Saskatchewan politics.

[Shady]

Even if that were true, there's millions more voters today than there were 20 years ago. Moreover, Bob Rae is a Liberal and ran his Ontario government like a Liberal. I don't see Layton calling for "Rae Days" to cut the deficit. Give me a break. And besides, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. Nice diversion.

Bob Rae might be a Liberal now, but the policies he put in place in Ontario are the exact same policies the NDP are in favour of today. You need to seperate personalities from policy and ideology. There's no difference between the policies and ideology of Layton today, and Rae 18 years ago. Yes, the personalities are different. But that's not what's important.

[ToadBrother]

Bob Rae might be a Liberal now, but the policies he put in place in Ontario are the exact same policies the NDP are in favour of today. You need to seperate personalities from policy and ideology. There's no difference between the policies and ideology of Layton today, and Rae 18 years ago. Yes, the personalities are different. But that's not what's important.

Beep beep beep... Tory HQ to Shady... Tory HQ to Shady... Talk about Bob Rae a lot. We mean a lot.

[Shady]

Beep beep beep... Tory HQ to Shady... Tory HQ to Shady... Talk about Bob Rae a lot. We mean a lot.

I know, I know, the truth hurts. The truth of the matter is that there's no ideological different between Rae of the past, and Layton of the present. All of the policies are the same. You and your ilk still cannot dispute that fact.

[Shwa]

I know, I know, the truth hurts. The truth of the matter is that there's no ideological different between Rae of the past, and Layton of the present. All of the policies are the same. You and your ilk still cannot dispute that fact.

"All of the policies are the same"

Really? Like what? Besides, I would contend that Bob Rae didn't really have any policies when Premier, more like seat of the pants, on the fly stuff.

But what policies are the same between Bob Rae and Jack Layton?

[ToadBrother]

I know, I know, the truth hurts. The truth of the matter is that there's no ideological different between Rae of the past, and Layton of the present. All of the policies are the same.

Then you should have no problem pointing out the similarities Rae's Ontario campaign platform and the current NDP one. More to the point, if the NDP do top the Tories, they certainly won't get a majority, so what does anybody's policies have to do with anything? It's not like the Tory platform, if they retain their minority, will survive unmolested. In fact, fixation on policy and platform in the current climate is, to my mind, an utter waste of time. You'd be just as well served to complain about the colors of the leaders' ties.

You and your ilk still cannot dispute that fact.

Who is my "ilk" again, Shady?

Edited April 27, 2011 by ToadBrother

[Shady]

Just like Rae, Layton has promised massive new spending without a way to pay for it . Just like Rae, Layton has promised to increase taxes and make Canada (instead of just Ontario) less competitive. Just like Rae, Layton will take more and more money out of the private sector, and pour into the public sector. It's all a replay of the early 90s.

[ToadBrother]

Just like Rae, Layton has promised massive new spending without a way to pay for it . Just like Rae, Layton has promised to increase taxes and make Canada (instead of just Ontario) less competitive. Just like Rae, Layton will take more and more money out of the private sector, and pour into the public sector. It's all a replay of the early 90s.

You mean, sort of like Harper's claims that involve mysterious unspecified efficiencies.

They're all talking crap, Shady.

[nittanylionstorm07]

Just like Rae, Layton has promised massive new spending without a way to pay for it . Just like Rae, Layton has promised to increase taxes and make Canada (instead of just Ontario) less competitive. Just like Rae, Layton will take more and more money out of the private sector, and pour into the public sector. It's all a replay of the early 90s.

How can you claim that Layton is going to increase spending without increasing revenue for it when in the very next sentence you say he plans to increase revenue?

You have no credibility.