NDP: Official Opposition or Jack Layton as PM?

[fellowtraveller]

Now you are the one being condescending.

If you insist on playing the fool, OK, so be it...

If you crack up taxes on business, large business, they will do one or both of two things:

1) leave

2) pass on the increased cost immediately and fully to consumers, who are also taxpayers.

There is no net gain in revenue that will give the billions to Layton he needs for big new programs.

I can try to explain again, but cannot get it into words smaller than one syllable for you.

[ToadBrother]

When you get older, work in the private sector, and pay taxes, you'll understand the realities of certain things. There should be NO taxes on any business. Lets just put it that way.

I'm older, I've done these things, and I think what you wrote was bullcrap. Taxes are a part of life, unless you want to live in a realm of chaos.

[cybercoma]

Now you are the one being condescending.

If you insist on playing the fool, OK, so be it...

If you crack up taxes on business, large business, they will do one or both of two things:

1) leave

2) pass on the increased cost immediately and fully to consumers, who are also taxpayers.

There is no net gain in revenue that will give the billions to Layton he needs for big new programs.

I can try to explain again, but cannot get it into words smaller than one syllable for you.

Not even the United States works on zero tax for business. Quit being ridiculous.

If you think I'm being condescending, I'm sorry. However, your post indicates business left when Harper lowered taxes and then criticizes Layton saying business is going to leave if he increases taxes.

While I don't doubt that some businesses may leave due to the increased expense, we're not talking about a lot here. Layton has proposed raising the taxes to 2006 levels and keeping them below the tax level in the United States so Canada remains competitive. There is an expense associated with packing up everything and leaving, so it would have to be a large enough tax hike to make it more cost beneficial to move everything. Moreover, if you understand economics so well, then you would understand that the taxes put onto corporations do not always get passed onto the consumers. For the billionth time on this forum, it depends on the price-elasticity of demand. This is basic econ. That's not to be condescending, that's the truth. On top of all that, Jack Layton has proposed tax-relief for businesses that create jobs, as an incentive for staying here and employing Canadians. Quit painting Layton to be some sort of extremist that he isn't.

[CPCFTW]

I totally agree. Layton truly does believe that money grows on trees. He just doesn't 'get it'. He'll tax corporations, they'll leave, and then people like my wife will be out of work.

Our household will have to cut spending meaning we won't spend into the economy. Now those small businesses will suffer.

My wife will not be able to get another job easy because now she's competing with 100 different people that have also been laid off.

With all the corporations leaving, and small businesses going out of business, suprise suprise, the gov't is collecting.. LESS TAXES!

Laton and the Marxists just 'don't get it'. They never in a million years will understand the above scenario. You can write a childrens book with pictures and speak very slowly and they just don't 'get it' and never will. People say Harper is going to ruin the country and all that bunk, but the above example is how you REALLY ruin a country - raise taxes, raise corporate taxes.

Agree 100%. I can't believe the NDP has any support in this country. What a disaster giving them any sort of power would be.

What's sad is that Canada has the cards completely stacked in its favour and we are blowing it. With the way commodity prices are going, we could have the 3rd highest GDP in the world if we knew how to manage our economy. There's enough oil in Alberta that we could have all the uneducated and unskilled labour in Canada making 100k in the oil sands if we wanted.

Even in the above scenario, I'm sure the arts majors of this country would unite to cry injustice at the rig pigs having to cope with only 3 or 4 beamers for their family when the oil corporate execs have their own private jets! Oh the humanity!!!

[ToadBrother]

Agree 100%. I can't believe the NDP has any support in this country. What a disaster giving them any sort of power would be.

Yeah, how dare anybody have a political view opposed to yours.

[The_Squid]

I know what you mean. I live in a riding (no fear of the NDP winning) where the Dips put in throw-away candidates, usually a snotty-nosed kid who wants to put in a $5/liter tax on gas and calls Israel an "apartheid" state.

Rhetoric? Or do you have quotes and links to actually back up your assertion?

[CPCFTW]

When will you understand that if businesses want to be a part of our society they can contribute to it in more ways than having a place for people to sell their labour. If they want an educated, healthy and secure labour force, they will pay into the systems that ensure that.

When will you understand that they pay into that system by employing people? They also pay into that system by earning profits for their shareholders. Their shareholders are the pension plans of your parents and grandparents, and earning more profits means your parents and grandparents don't have to worry about their pensions having a shortfall.

The louder you whine, the more unreasonable the right seems. Especially considering the massive profits banks, telecommunications and oil companies are raking in.

I don't understand the demonization of corporate profits. Those banks, telecoms, and oil companies profits are paid into the pockets of shareholders by ways of dividends or capital gains. Most of the MASSIVE profits are in widely held corporations that are held in the RRSPs of Canadians, the CPP ($140 billion in assets), the teacher's pension plan, the federal government pension plans, etc. These companies use the profits to grow and create jobs or to pay dividends to shareholders. There's nothing evil about corporations earning profits for their shareholders... that is the purpose of their existence.

[PIK]

Agree 100%. I can't believe the NDP has any support in this country. What a disaster giving them any sort of power would be.

What's sad is that Canada has the cards completely stacked in its favour and we are blowing it. With the way commodity prices are going, we could have the 3rd highest GDP in the world if we knew how to manage our economy. There's enough oil in Alberta that we could have all the uneducated and unskilled labour in Canada making 100k in the oil sands if we wanted.

Even in the above scenario, I'm sure the arts majors of this country would unite to cry injustice at the rig pigs having to cope with only 3 or 4 beamers for their family when the oil corporate execs have their own private jets! Oh the humanity!!!

Jack and his ilk, I guess have no idea who is paying the bills right now. And if he goes after the west ,he will certainly screw the money pot up, and sink this country. I guess the left still thinks money grows on trees. And it is time for jack to throw away the cans ,he has played that one long enough, but I expect the cane will disappear just before the election to make it look like he is healed and ready to go. EMOTIONS, he is playing on people emotions.

[CPCFTW]

Yeah, how dare anybody have a political view opposed to yours.

How did you get that out of my statement?

[RNG]

When will you understand that they pay into that system by employing people? They also pay into that system by earning profits for their shareholders. Their shareholders are the pension plans of your parents and grandparents, and earning more profits means your parents and grandparents don't have to worry about their pensions having a shortfall.

I don't understand the demonization of corporate profits. Those banks, telecoms, and oil companies profits are paid into the pockets of shareholders by ways of dividends or capital gains. Most of the MASSIVE profits are in widely held corporations that are held in the RRSPs of Canadians, the CPP ($140 billion in assets), the teacher's pension plan, the federal government pension plans, etc. These companies use the profits to grow and create jobs or to pay dividends to shareholders. There's nothing evil about corporations earning profits for their shareholders... that is the purpose of their existence.

And the left always loses sight of the fact that corporate profits are not hoarded under their beds, nor are they sent offshore all that often. Most western countries, including Canada have all kinds of means of keeping Canadian cash in Canada. Usually they use these profits to expand or invest in other business etc, creating more jobs and more wealth. And even if they do stash it in the bank, the banks then lend it out to build more businesses and more jobs.

[wyly]

Germany has an effective corporate tax rate, including trade tax and solidarity tax is 29 % - 32 %....much higher than ours yet Mercedes, BMW and VW still build cars there...europe has many large multinational corporations that still do business there which would shouldn't be according to conservative scare tactics...Japan has an effective corporate tax rate that can reach 41-42% yet we don't see Toyota or Honda moving their corporate offices here...the thing is businesses need us more than we need them if they pick up and leave some other corporation will galdly step and take their place...

[CPCFTW]

Germany has an effective corporate tax rate, including trade tax and solidarity tax is 29 % - 32 %....much higher than ours yet Mercedes, BMW and VW still build cars there...europe has many large multinational corporations that still do business there which would shouldn't be according to conservative scare tactics...Japan has an effective corporate tax rate that can reach 41-42% yet we don't see Toyota or Honda moving their corporate offices here...the thing is businesses need us more than we need them if they pick up and leave some other corporation will galdly step and take their place...

Germany doesn't have provincial taxes, our tax rate is around the same as theirs factoring corporate taxes anyway. How is ours any less effective? Also, Mercedes and BMW are luxury items. They can afford to pay higher wages to employees because of the profit margin on their products. Newsflash: We also produce products in Canada, doesn't mean we couldn't produce more if corporate taxes were lower.

"Some other corporation will gladly step up and take their place"? Yet we still have an 8% unemployment rate. We need to invite more corporations in, not to push them out and hope that some benevolent corporation makes an inexplicable decision to relocate to a high tax regime with higher labour costs.

You have no basis for what you're arguing, you're just spouting off nonsense that the corporations need us for some reason. Corporations have been relocating for cost savings for the past two decades and you think they need us? Where have you been the past 20 years? Are you so self-centered and naive that you think you're worth 200 times more than a Chinese worker because you're working towards a philosophy degree?

Edited April 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Scotty]

Yeah, because the Tories have such wonderful members. Remind me again how many were caught in various scandals?

2 that I can think of...

One of Mulroney's problems was that the Tories just didn't have much of an organization in Quebec, so when he won a landslide all of a sudden, a whole bunch of pretty iffy characters wound up as MPs for the first time. The NDP is in even worse shape, and basically had to accept virtually anyone willing to run for it in a lot of ridings. Many of those candidates are pretty iffy when it comes to their ability to act as a member of parliament without embarrassing the party.

[ToadBrother]

And the left always loses sight of the fact that corporate profits are not hoarded under their beds, nor are they sent offshore all that often. Most western countries, including Canada have all kinds of means of keeping Canadian cash in Canada. Usually they use these profits to expand or invest in other business etc, creating more jobs and more wealth. And even if they do stash it in the bank, the banks then lend it out to build more businesses and more jobs.

Well actually, at the moment most larger corporations are in fact putting the cash in the bank.

[Scotty]

Germany has an effective corporate tax rate, including trade tax and solidarity tax is 29 % - 32 %....much higher than ours yet Mercedes, BMW and VW still build cars there...europe has many large multinational corporations that still do business there which would shouldn't be according to conservative scare tactics...Japan has an effective corporate tax rate that can reach 41-42% yet we don't see Toyota or Honda moving their corporate offices here...the thing is businesses need us more than we need them if they pick up and leave some other corporation will galdly step and take their place...

Mercedes and VW, etc are Germans. They take great pride in being German companies, and it is unthinkable that they would move elsewhere. The same goes for Toyota and the like in Japan.

Problem is, Canada has no such corporations. In fact, most of our major corporations aren't even headquartered in Canada. We probably have fewer homegrown large companies than anyone in the western world. And these international companies have no loyalty to Canada whatsoever. That has been a lot of movement within Europe from tax-heavy nations to tax-light ones for business. That's why a number of EEC nations are grumbling about Ireland's low tax.

[wyly]

You have no basis for what you're arguing, you're just spouting off nonsense that the corporations need us for some reason. Corporations have been relocating for cost savings for the past two decades and you think they need us? Where have you been the past 20 years? Are you so self-centered and naive that you think you're worth 200 times more than a Chinese worker because you're working towards a philosophy degree?

I'm nominated that for stupidest post of the year award...according to your economic implications europe is a wasteland of unemployed as should be Japan yet contrary to your simplistic economic theories corporations continue to thrive in both locations in spite of high taxation...

[CPCFTW]

Well actually, at the moment most larger corporations are in fact putting the cash in the bank.

Cash and cash equivalents on the balance sheet increases the value of a corporation which means their shareholders (your parents and grandparents) get capital gains. Thanks for coming out.

[wyly]

Mercedes and VW, etc are Germans. They take great pride in being German companies, and it is unthinkable that they would move elsewhere. The same goes for Toyota and the like in Japan.

Problem is, Canada has no such corporations. In fact, most of our major corporations aren't even headquartered in Canada. We probably have fewer homegrown large companies than anyone in the western world. And these international companies have no loyalty to Canada whatsoever. That has been a lot of movement within Europe from tax-heavy nations to tax-light ones for business. That's why a number of EEC nations are grumbling about Ireland's low tax.

yet both germany and japan build cars in other countries, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, India, Vietnam, Russia, Argentina and the United States....so it's not unthinkable...

Irelands economy if you haven't noticed collapsed in spite of low taxes...

[CPCFTW]

I'm nominated that for stupidest post of the year award...according to your economic implications europe is a wasteland of unemployed as should be Japan yet contrary to your simplistic economic theories corporations continue to thrive in both locations in spite of high taxation...

The GDP growth rate in Japan and Europe is almost stagnant when inflation is taken into consideration. GDP growth rate in Ireland with around 10-15% corporate tax rate has been 5-10% from 1995 to 2008. Even after the financial crisis, Ireland's GDP is over 3 times what is was in 1995. To put that into context, Canada's GDP would be about 2 trillion right now had it grown at the same rate (whereas current GDP is around 1.3 trillion). Your anecdotal evidence of corporate success in high tax locations is meaningless. Germany has a population of 80 million and you are citing three corporations that sell luxury/prestige items employing maybe 500,000 Germans. The allure of BMW, Mercedes, and VW is that they're German made. The execs of these companies know that and that's why they continue to pay higher taxes and labour costs in Germany. Consumers don't want a Chinese made BMWs or even Toyotas. Can you really not understand that?

[CPCFTW]

yet both germany and japan build cars in other countries, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, India, Vietnam, Russia, Argentina and the United States....so it's not unthinkable...

Irelands economy if you haven't noticed collapsed in spite of low taxes...

Ireland's GDP is over 3 times what it was in 1995. Saying its economy collapsed is disingenuous. Would you say your income "collapsed" if you went from making 30k to 110k, then had it drop to 95k for a few years?

Edited April 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Scotty]

yet both germany and japan build cars in other countries, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, India, Vietnam, Russia, Argentina and the United States....so it's not unthinkable...

Irelands economy if you haven't noticed collapsed in spite of low taxes...

Low corporate taxes are not any guarantee of nirvana. And all large, labour intensive manufacturers are contracting work overseas to areas of low labour costs.

What makes you think low tax costs won't have a similar affect?

[punked]

Low corporate taxes are not any guarantee of nirvana. And all large, labour intensive manufacturers are contracting work overseas to areas of low labour costs.

What makes you think low tax costs won't have a similar affect?

Because Labour is the single highest cost for these people. Our taxes could be 0 it wont bring those jobs back. The math doesn't work.

[CPCFTW]

Because Labour is the single highest cost for these people. Our taxes could be 0 it wont bring those jobs back. The math doesn't work.

Sure it does. We already have corporations in Canada. Less taxes means they have more money for growth to employ more Canadians. We are also mainly competing in the services industry with the US and Europe. Lower taxes means more service businesses will create jobs in Canada. Especially if we create incentives by offering less taxes through job creation tax credits.

Labour costs are also increasing exponentially in the developing world, so while the math may not work out now for relocation of manufacturing jobs to Canada, it could in the future. Lets also not forget that universal health care and other social programs like the CPP reduce costs of labour in Canada as well. Not to mention political stability, lack of corruption, and transparency help to lure businesses to Canada.

It's not all about math. Low corporate taxes + free health care + CPP + political stability and other factors would make Canada an exceptionally attractive place for corporations to invest in and create jobs in.

Edited April 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Scotty]

Because Labour is the single highest cost for these people. Our taxes could be 0 it wont bring those jobs back. The math doesn't work.

Single highest cost? You don't think a tax of 20% - 30% might be considered marginally important if they could go elsewhere and not pay it? These are organizations which will jump through a thousand hoops to add a quarter cent per item extra profit.

[nittanylionstorm07]

Because Labour is the single highest cost for these people. Our taxes could be 0 it wont bring those jobs back. The math doesn't work.

The only way to bring the jobs back is to make the costs higher for Canadian companies to operate manufacturing and jobs overseas than in Canada through tariffs, extended taxing, etc.