capricorn Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 scrums with reporters :lol: 4 scripted questions then run away :lol: You were criticizing Harper for using up time in the post debate scrum to answer questions in both languages. The point is this is what reporters have always asked of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Yup. Far more time was given to parties with the vaguest hope in hell of ever actually winning a seat in Parliament. The format helped too. The debates were far better this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 The format helped too. The debates were far better this year. They were more sensible. But at the end of the day, they were dull. Since I would never use a leadership debate as a tool to decide who I was voting for, I look for entertainment value, and there was little enough of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 They were more sensible. But at the end of the day, they were dull. Well, that's what Canadians always say they want...so they probably didn't like it, since people rarely know what they're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 The format helped too. The debates were far better this year. Now I wasn't a fan of the format, I preferred the old style ala Turner and Mulroney (what a whooping that was) to this years fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Now I wasn't a fan of the format, I preferred the old style ala Turner and Mulroney (what a whooping that was) to this years fair. This year (as opposed to the last two debates) allowed Harper to respond to his critics after each attack (well, I guess it was Martin responding in the first debate). That was much better than before where he didn't always have time to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) This year (as opposed to the last two debates) allowed Harper to respond to his critics after each attack (well, I guess it was Martin responding in the first debate). That was much better than before where he didn't always have time to respond. I agree that this format gave Harper a chance, and in that respect, yes, it was a success. Sometimes these debates feel more like duck shoots against the incumbent. I think Harper did what he set out to do. He knew he wasn't going to outright win against the other three, who are much stronger debaters, but he fended them off and prevented any gotcha moments, and for Harper, whose strengths simply do not lie in this kind of campaigning, it makes this debate a success. As I go over it in my head, I think Iggy really didn't do that well at all. Well, he didn't do badly, but he spent so much time trying to nail Harper that he did very little self-promotion. Duceppe has that luxury in the English debates because he really has no horse in that race, but for the other parties as important as it is trying to nail the other guys is self-promotion. Layton, I think, was, performance-wise, the winner, because he managed to do both; he managed to lob some shots at the others but also managed to insert bits of his platform. In short, Layton's strategy was to attack Harper and Iggy, but then to quickly turn it around by offering an alternative. I may not agree with the NDP platform, but if the debates are good for anything other than a beauty contest of unbeautiful people, then it has to be for the opportunity to engage a helluva lot of voters with something positive. Layton did that in spades, Harper had less time to do it but did manage a few arm pumps for himself, but Iggy spent the whole night firing shots, and came off, well, for lack of a better term, like a damned good Leader of the Official Opposition. For me the low point was Iggy angrily telling Layton that what he said didn't matter because he had no chance of forming a government. While it's certainly true, I thought it was kind of cheap and mean-spirited. Beyond that, if some of my musings are halfway correct, it won't be entirely true. If Harper were to offer Layton a deal of some kind to prevent a defeat over the Throne Speech, Layton will come a helluva lot closer to government than Iggy will. Another interesting thing was Duceppe's trying to pin Layton down. I'm thinking there are real concerns in the BQ that the Federalist parties may in fact be poised to make gains in Quebec. I think there's at least some sense that a lot of Quebecers may be ready to turn their backs on the BQ. Edited April 13, 2011 by ToadBrother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Ignatieff made Stephane Dion look masterful in comparison. I actually empathized with him a little since it is very difficult to speak extemporaneously in public, let alone in a high-pressure situation like this, but he was hopelessly repetitive, clung to catchphrases ("shut down everything you can't control", "let ... flourish") and dwelled on relatively minor issues or even issues that will probably work against him (the gun registry) without, as you note, doing much to emphasize his own (imo excellent) platform. Harper performed depressingly well, although I'd like to see him with a lie detector test. I thought Layton was quite strong as well, and much better than in 2008. His use of 'hip' slang was pretty embarrassing though. Am I misremembering the last debate or two or has Duceppe thrown away all previous restraint in terms of openly rejecting multiculturalism, proudly advocating for the extension of Bill 101, and boldly referring to "Quebec and Canada"? Whatever ideological kinship I ever felt with him has fully dissipated. His demeanour was kind of fasincating in its raw aggression though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Ignatieff made Stephane Dion look masterful in comparison. I actually empathized with him a little since it is very difficult to speak extemporaneously in public, let alone in a high-pressure situation like this, but he was hopelessly repetitive, clung to catchphrases ("shut down everything you can't control", "let ... flourish") and dwelled on relatively minor issues or even issues that will probably work against him (the gun registry) without, as you note, doing much to emphasize his own (imo excellent) platform. I can't say his performance was out and out bad, but he needed to use the opportunity to look like a Prime Minister. He seemed to treat the whole thing more like Question Period. Harper performed depressingly well, although I'd like to see him with a lie detector test. I thought Layton was quite strong as well, and much better than in 2008. His use of 'hip' slang was pretty embarrassing though. Was I the only one who, every time Layton accused Iggy of being "Harper's best friend", I kept hearing "Harper's bitch"? Am I misremembering the last debate or two or has Duceppe thrown away all previous restraint in terms of openly rejecting multiculturalism, proudly advocating for the extension of Bill 101, and boldly referring to "Quebec and Canada"? Whatever ideological kinship I ever felt with him has fully dissipated. His demeanour was kind of fasincating in its raw aggression though. Duceppe has spent the last few elections with little worry of the BQ losing any substantial amount of support. I think what we're seeing is an intentional ploy to play to the hard Quebecois to remind them that the Federalists, whatever their stripes, will try to impose all those nasty foreign ways on Quebec. The exchange between him and Layton in their one-on-one, was really fascinating, and I thought Layton did pretty well at evading Duceppe's attempt to nail him on Bill 101. But the fact that Duceppe put that much effort into decrying multiculturalism is pretty suggestive that he's feeling that this election may actually pose some risk for the BQ. Perhaps he's concerned that the unpopularity of the provincial Liberal means that Quebecers may decide to give the keys back to the PQ and throw some more Quebec Federalists to Ottawa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Was I the only one who, every time Layton accused Iggy of being "Harper's best friend", I kept hearing "Harper's bitch"? No, I said the same thing on another board last night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 It's possible that I went in with very high expectations of Ignatieff and was excessively disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 It's possible that I went in with very high expectations of Ignatieff and was excessively disappointed. I have a hard time saying he did a bad job. It certainly wasn't a disaster. But if there's any benefit to a leadership debate for the guy trying to unseat an incumbent Prime Minister, it's to look like a Prime Minister. Iggy looked like a very good leader of the Opposition. At the end of the night, Harper had held his own, scored no major victories, but didn't need to, and looked like a Prime Minister. I still don't think this debate is going to sway many hearts and minds. These four guys have had so much practice smacking each other around over the last few years that there's little chance of a body blow. Harper has shown that all he has to do is lean away from the punches, underscore what he views as his accomplishments and he's fine. The one I'm anxious to see is Duceppe. I'm getting the feeling that the BQ leader is scared of something, and so the French debate is going to be hugely important to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I had no idea what a hashtag was...I supposed it was something that was between a gram and a bottle toke... Layton apparently wasn't interested in communicating with those of a certain voting age.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Was I the only one who, every time Layton accused Iggy of being "Harper's best friend", I kept hearing "Harper's bitch"? How awesome would it have been if he actually said that? That's all that people would have been talking about today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I quite liked the Gilles Duceppe, Layton reminds me of the sales man, very slick.They're both easy to like, from a distance, since neither will ever be PM. Duceppes, in my view, has always been an excellent presenter, someone I'd like on my side. But he isn't on my side and won't be. I see less attractive about Layton, but he does seem quite sincere. Of course, he'll never be tested by the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I didn't like the part where Harper talked about the previous Liberal government raising taxes, since that isn't actually true. The Chretien Liberal government actually lowered personal income tax rates. Under Harper, they are now exactly the same as they were in 2005. Harper actually raised the tax rates in 2006 on the lowest income earners but then lowered them in 2007 to where they were in 2005. Anyone can see this by just looking at their tax returns over the years. Yet no one challenged Harper on this lie. Here's another lie of Harper's which none of the Opposition leaders challenged. "Canada's got the strongest recovery of any country on earth." It's a Conservative talking point but it's not true. We're 9th of 17 OECD nations: http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/4976597/canada-s-post-recession-bounce-less-impressive-than-the-global-economic-leaders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I had no idea what a hashtag was...I supposed it was something that was between a gram and a bottle toke... Layton apparently wasn't interested in communicating with those of a certain voting age.. Get with it man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evening Star Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Ha, yeah, considering that I just explained to my parents what Facebook and Twitter are a couple weeks ago, Layton's line probably flew right by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I had no idea what a hashtag was...I supposed it was something that was between a gram and a bottle toke... Layton apparently wasn't interested in communicating with those of a certain voting age.. Hahaha. Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Here's another lie of Harper's which none of the Opposition leaders challenged. "Canada's got the strongest recovery of any country on earth." It's a Conservative talking point but it's not true. We're 9th of 17 OECD nations: http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/4976597/canada-s-post-recession-bounce-less-impressive-than-the-global-economic-leaders According to the |conference Board of Canada, anyway...but hey! they give Ireland a B! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Ha, yeah, considering that I just explained to my parents what Facebook and Twitter are a couple weeks ago, Layton's line probably flew right by them. You think that's bad? A couple of weeks ago, my father-in-law asked me "what is this internet I keep reading about in the paper?". He was very serious. I tried to explain it to him, and his eyes just glassed over, the whole concept had no meaning to him. Even when I sat him down to my computer to show him, he just thought it was some sort of video game, and dismissed it as irrelevant. In his defence, he is 86, but it still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 According to the |conference Board of Canada, anyway...but hey! they give Ireland a B! Are you suggesting that Canada did have the strongest recovery of any country on earth? If so, what's your evidence? That Harper said so and therefore it must be true? Anyway, the Opposition leaders are just as much in the dark on this issue since none of them challenged Harper on this lie. Harper knows that if you repeat a lie enough times, Canadians will believe it, even the Opposition leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 The opposition are pretty good at spreadinglies, too many to go into here, but on the recovery we are best http://www.thestar.com/business/article/791490--canada-enthusiastic-rebound-best-in-g7-oecd-says Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Are you suggesting that Canada did have the strongest recovery of any country on earth? If so, what's your evidence? That Harper said so and therefore it must be true? Anyway, the Opposition leaders are just as much in the dark on this issue since none of them challenged Harper on this lie. Harper knows that if you repeat a lie enough times, Canadians will believe it, even the Opposition leaders. No the Opposition leaders know this is a losing and Boring issue because all Canadians want to know is "Did we beat the US?" Unless it is in hockey because then it is "Did we beat the US.....And Russia?" Seriously good luck getting up there and going through numbers and how Brazil is coming out of the recession so good because they beat our GDP growth numbers by 5 percent over so many months BLAH BLAH BLAH........Boring. The question is going to come back to "Are we better then the US?" Economics is a losing issue unless you can make into a 10 word answer sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 No the Opposition leaders know this is a losing and Boring issue because all Canadians want to know is "Did we beat the US?" Unless it is in hockey because then it is "Did we beat the US.....And Russia?" The question is going to come back to "Are we better then the US?" Economics is a losing issue unless you can make into a 10 word answer sorry. Yes, you're probably right. Canadians I'm sure have noticed how our dollar has risen relative to the US dollar but probably have not even noticed how it's fallen relative to the Australian dollar, Swedish krona, and many other currencies. My point remains that Harper blatantly lied when he said "Canada's got the strongest recovery of any country on Earth." Maybe he should have said that Canada had a stronger recovery than any country which Americans consider the greatest country on Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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