Harper: Republican Wannabe

[ToadBrother]

To a certain extent, maybe. But, none of them put Supreme Court nominees before a House of Commons committee. I don't recall any of them giving an address to the country in which they said they had the popular mandate to govern and hence the opposition was conducting an undemocratic coup by transferring their confidence from him to someone else. And none of those prime ministers acted as though Canada had such a thing as executive privelige. Even still, if those prime ministers were as presidential as Harper, they weren't, at the same time, as overtly monarchist as Harper has shown himself to be; they were happy to presidentialise themselves at the expense of the Crown. Harper's blatantly contradictory in this regard, and I can't quite figure out why.

[+]

I don't know if it's that contradictory. Look at the 19th century, where modern Toryism was born. You saw a similar classical Tory defense of historical institutions, while at the same doing their own fair part along with the Whigs in empowering the House of Commons and the political classes in general against the aristocracy and landed classes. Disraeli is the archetype of the Tory, supposed great reverence for traditional governing structures while, in fact, gleefully throwing a monkey wrench into them.

Not that I'm comparing Harper to Disraeli, Disraeli, I think, being a much more cunning player, but still, there remains that bizarre dichotomy in the Conservative parties both in the UK and Canada.

Edited April 4, 2011 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

Come on! Trudeau, and even worse Chretien maintained such a total control over their MP's to make Harper look laise faire.

I wouldn't say so at all. Harper sits well within the tradition set out by Trudeau. Harper isn't any better or any worse in that regard.

As well, in minority government situations, and this applies to pretty much all Parliamentary systems, you'll find a lot more iron a grip on MPs, if for no other reason than survival.

At the end of the day, I don't see Harper as being worse than his predecessors.

[Jack Weber]

I don't know if it's that contradictory. Look at the 19th century, where modern Toryism was born. You saw a similar classical Tory defense of historical institutions, while at the same doing their own fair part along with the Whigs in empowering the House of Commons and the political classes in general against the aristocracy and landed classes. Disraeli is the archetype of the Tory, supposed great reverence for traditional governing structures while, in fact, gleefully throwing a monkey wrench into them.

Not that I'm comparing Harper to Disraeli, Disraeli, I think, being a much more cunning player, but still, there remains that bizarre dichotomy in the Conservative parties both in the UK and Canada.

Whew...

That last sentence saved ya'...

I thought you were trying to claim that Stephen Harper was some sort of modern day Benjamin Disraeli...

As far as the dichotomy in the Conservative Party of Canada goes,it's most likely becuase of it being an amalgamation of the old PC Party and the Reform Party.One looked gleefully South for it's ideological direction and the other loed toward the British traditions in this country.I suppose that's the balancing act Mr. Harper has to unddertake to keep the peace on the political right in Canada??

[g_bambino]

I don't know if it's that contradictory. Look at the 19th century, where modern Toryism was born. You saw a similar classical Tory defense of historical institutions, while at the same doing their own fair part along with the Whigs in empowering the House of Commons and the political classes in general against the aristocracy and landed classes. Disraeli is the archetype of the Tory, supposed great reverence for traditional governing structures while, in fact, gleefully throwing a monkey wrench into them.

Not that I'm comparing Harper to Disraeli, Disraeli, I think, being a much more cunning player, but still, there remains that bizarre dichotomy in the Conservative parties both in the UK and Canada.

I don't see it as a matter of class warfare at all. Canada has inherited the conventions of constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy developed by Disraeli and others through 19th century, leaving the Crown's role in governance today as primarily a fire extinguisher of sorts reserved only for emergencies, and it isn't as though Harper's public support for the Queen has been a cover for his interest in further diminishing her reserve powers in favour of the House of Commons. In fact, it's quite the opposite: it's the influence of parliament he's reduced by trying to introduce the concepts of a popularly elected prime minister and executive privilege into the Canadian system, undoing the very idea of responsible government that was honed in the UK.

I just don't understand why, if he fancies himself the president of Canada and appreciates the American model of republic, he doesn't hide the monarchy away so that everyone forgets it's actually the Queen, and not Harper, who holds all the power. That was what previous prime ministers tried to do, even though they were less overt than Harper about their presidential aspirations; I didn't like it, but at least they were consistent and it made some sense.

[ToadBrother]

Whew...

That last sentence saved ya'...

I thought you were trying to claim that Stephen Harper was some sort of modern day Benjamin Disraeli...

As far as the dichotomy in the Conservative Party of Canada goes,it's most likely becuase of it being an amalgamation of the old PC Party and the Reform Party.One looked gleefully South for it's ideological direction and the other loed toward the British traditions in this country.I suppose that's the balancing act Mr. Harper has to unddertake to keep the peace on the political right in Canada??

And yet, the old PC party was still made up of the old Progessive-Conservative alliance which has been one of the dominant factions in Canadian political history for over a century. Reform wasn't invented out of thin air, it was a rupture in the old alliance that wasn't properly put back together until Harper and MacKay shook hands.

[Jack Weber]

And yet, the old PC party was still made up of the old Progessive-Conservative alliance which has been one of the dominant factions in Canadian political history for over a century. Reform wasn't invented out of thin air, it was a rupture in the old alliance that wasn't properly put back together until Harper and MacKay shook hands.

True...

Mr. Mulroney had alot to do with that rupture.He forgot about the hardcore Western Social Credit wing and kept pandering to the Eastern "PC base all the while selling out to small c conservtive seccesionists in Quebec...

It'll be interesting,going forward,to see if Mr. Harper can keep that alliance together...

[ToadBrother]

True...

Mr. Mulroney had alot to do with that rupture.He forgot about the hardcore Western Social Credit wing and kept pandering to the Eastern "PC base all the while selling out to small c conservtive seccesionists in Quebec...

It'll be interesting,going forward,to see if Mr. Harper can keep that alliance together...

Well, to some extent I think recent history will. As much as a lot of Reformers may hate that the party has drifed to the centre, the alternative is another breach and the Liberals marching up the middle.

[Jack Weber]

Well, to some extent I think recent history will. As much as a lot of Reformers may hate that the party has drifed to the centre, the alternative is another breach and the Liberals marching up the middle.

That's the rational position...

When have ideologues on the Left or the Right ever been rational???

We have a member here who just said we need a new fically conservative party or an armed coup...

Absent of the armed coup ,it would seem that unless Mr. Harper constantly throws these folks ideological bones,they will be increasingly unhappy...

Then we'll hear about the "problem" of "Western Alienation" again..

If he does continue to placate these folks,who are are far to the right of most people in this country,he will risk alienating the largest part of why he got elected into power in the first place....

Edited April 4, 2011 by Jack Weber

[blueblood]

That's the rational position...

When have ideologues on the Left or the Right ever been rational???

We have a member here who just said we need a new fically conservative party or an armed coup...

Absent of the armed coup ,it would seem that unless Mr. Harper constantly throws these folks ideological bones,they will be increasingly unhappy...

Then we'll hear about the "problem" of "Western Alienation" again..

If he does continue to placate these folks,who are are far to the right of most people in this country,he will risk alienating the largest part of why he got elected into power in the first place....

There will be no problem of western alienation. Western canada is booming. All sectors of the western canadian economy are firing on all cylinders. As long as nobody tips the cart over, there won't be a peep out here.

What's even funnier is that if harper gets his majority, he'll have the slaying the deficit and tax cuts to run on next time. Its funny how he has the deficit to be zero right around election time

[ToadBrother]

There will be no problem of western alienation. Western canada is booming. All sectors of the western canadian economy are firing on all cylinders. As long as nobody tips the cart over, there won't be a peep out here.

We'll see what happens when Kevin Falcon, BC Minister of Finance, comes knocking on Harper's door after the election asking to be allowed to reduce the HST by a point or two (from the Provincial portion, to be clear). So far the Tories have managed not to get implicated in the whole HST debacle in BC, but if the Feds don't cut the BC government the slack they need to sell the HST in the referendum, I think you might find some BC alienation.

[GWiz]

What's even funnier is that if harper gets his majority, he'll have the slaying the deficit and tax cuts to run on next time. Its funny how he has the deficit to be zero right around election time

With "spend like a drunken sailor" Harper at the helm? Good luck with THAT!

Maybe YOU can tell me where some $70,000,000,000.00 of Canadian's money went? Nobody I've found yet that can tell me THAT...

The $30,000,000,000.00 budget deficit he proposed will bring that to a cool and simple to remember $100,000,000,000.00 just one 0 from the twelve 0 trillion dollar mark that Harper seems to be shooting for...

[Oleg Bach]

'Specialy the Canadian CRIMINALS.

And the lawabiding will be able to relax.

You had better talk to who ever sits on the bench and gets their jollies from releasing prisoners that are murderous and crazy...release the hounds! Crimminals in Canada have come to understand that the judicary is in partnership with them..and it is simply a buisness.

[Sailor]

The deficit is the biggest excuse for a scam our government could come up with. It's a figure completely open to manipulation and abuse,and an excuse for them to not pay us back our taxes.