Federal Election Polls

[jbg]

As if he had some right to address the nation directly or had any level of authority whatsoever to defy the will of Parliament.

Why didn't he have the same right as any Canadian to address the nation directly?

It was then that such phrases of "coalition of losers" or "coup d'etat" started floating around. All disingenuous and inaccurate statements aimed directly at exploiting the ignorance of the Canadians at large. I found the whole affair insulting and infuriating, I think I actually shouted back at the TV.

What is disingenuous about attacking an "end-around" coalition that cements the three losing parties? It seemed then and seems now as if the voters in more ridings prefered the CPC and the LPC had far more than 60 fewer ridings than the LPC did. Adding a purely regional, even traiterous party to the mix (since LPC + NDP weren't enough) was to me the icing on the cake.

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely, this is the core of the issue for me. It's all well and good that joe voter is content to wallow in ignorance, but what I cannot abide is the CPC's wanton exploitation, and encouragement of that ignorance. I'm still floored at Mr. Harper's Presidential Address during the whole constitutional crisis. As if he had some right to address the nation directly or had any level of authority whatsoever to defy the will of Parliament. It was then that such phrases of "coalition of losers" or "coup d'etat" started floating around. All disingenuous and inaccurate statements aimed directly at exploiting the ignorance of the Canadians at large. I found the whole affair insulting and infuriating, I think I actually shouted back at the TV.

Dave, I wish people were smarter too! It would certainly make driving a lot more pleasant. It might also have prevented the rise of disco and later hiphop.

Still, they aren't! They are what they are and that's all that they are, er...am!

It's real world and we have to live in it. How you and I feel about coalitions is irrelevant. Whether or not you or I think Joe Voter is despicable is irrelevant. If you want to win an election you better listen to him and NOT constitutional lawyers!

Joe Voter is a citizen. He will vote the way he wants. You cannot coerce him or force-educate him.

And it would be very wrong to try!

[Dave_ON]

More plainly, if at that time someone like you scolded Joe and waved a book of constitutional law in front of him he would likely just laugh at you and move on! You wouldn't change his feelings and the way he would vote next election in the slightest.

In politics, legalities are a lot less important than whether or not something passes the "sniff test". In fact, if you have to use a legal argument as an excuse you've already failed! It only reminds the public that most politicians are lawyers and lawyers' tricks are not well respected.

So keep waving your constitutional law book, Dave. I hope it makes you feel better. All I know is, if I were a politician I wouldn't want to stake my political future on it!

You can't pass a law to MAKE someone vote a certain way!

So then my point remains. We should not abide by our constitution, it's not worth the paper it's printed on and we should basically be governed by the whim and ignorance of the masses? Does that about sum it up?

It's not about rule books, it's about the rule of law and good government. This is the foundation of our society, it's a sad state of affairs that 75% of Canadians don't know the Queen is our head of state. Apparently you don't see the danger in abandoning tradition, and the foundation of our political structure because of commonly held misconceptions. You don't appear to realize the amount of power that gives to men of dubious character such as Mr. Harper. It allowed him to hold on to power that was traditionally no longer his through the use of yet another "lawyer's trick" which you apparently have no issue with. Why was proroguing parliament to avoid a confidence motion, which Canadians are familiar with, an acceptable constitutional process? Does that pass the "sniff" test?

[nittanylionstorm07]

go find some good literature (ie, not from the CPC website) on Parliamentary democracy, cause you have some self-educating to do.

Problem with modern day Conservatives: If it isn't on the CPC or various other friendly sites, then it is liberal socialist media academic propaganda.

[M.Dancer]

Coalitions are NOT illegal. agreed

Coalitions are NOT treasonous. agreed

Coalitions are NOT subversions of the will of the voters. Debatable

A coalition that includes a regional party who are an anathema to the rest of Canada and who have 93& of canadians NOT vote for them cannot be considered anything but a subversion of the will of the voters.

[TimG]

This is not an objection to coalitions, though, just an objection to including separatists in government.

That is all Harper is objecting to. The only difference between you and Harper is Harper recognizes that any government run by the Libs and NDP will BQ's cabin boy.

[cybercoma]

Layton will split the anti-Harper vote in Ontario.

If he keeps trending upwards, maybe. However, the regional split makes it look like they aren't in that position yet. In BC, however, this is a very real possibility.

[punked]

If he keeps trending upwards, maybe. However, the regional split makes it look like they aren't in that position yet. In BC, however, this is a very real possibility.

How do you figure the NDP got 25% of the voter last time right where they are now in BC, if anything the Liberals and the Cons are splitting their vote.

[ToadBrother]

Absolutely, this is the core of the issue for me. It's all well and good that joe voter is content to wallow in ignorance, but what I cannot abide is the CPC's wanton exploitation, and encouragement of that ignorance.

Exploitation of ignorance has been a mainstay of politics since, well, politics was invented.

I'm still floored at Mr. Harper's Presidential Address during the whole constitutional crisis. As if he had some right to address the nation directly or had any level of authority whatsoever to defy the will of Parliament. It was then that such phrases of "coalition of losers" or "coup d'etat" started floating around. All disingenuous and inaccurate statements aimed directly at exploiting the ignorance of the Canadians at large. I found the whole affair insulting and infuriating, I think I actually shouted back at the TV.

It wasn't directed at those that knew better, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, curing ignorance is difficult, and even moreso when those attempting to cure it can hardly be called impartial. The media did the best it could, I suppose, but since there are so many Tories who believe the media is in the pocket of liberals they just dismissed those corrections as "anti-Tory bias."

To my mind, Iggy only made things worse early in this election by allowing himself to be outmanoeuvred. His handlers, advisers or whoever the hell is giving him his talking points should be given the boot and never allowed with ten miles of Liberal party headquarters ever again. Instead of saying "Look, we can't know how the next Parliament will look, so saying 'No coalition' is premature for any party, and Mr. Harper should know that as well as anyone. I can guarantee that no Bloc Quebecois MP will be in any government I formed, and they would have no more say than they do now."

Instead, he made a promise that will haunt him, even as Layton and Harper have much more cleverly positioned themselves for any likelihood. Iggy may be the smartest kid on the political block in some respects, but when it comes to leadership and instincts, he makes a fine Harvard professor.

[ToadBrother]

That is all Harper is objecting to. The only difference between you and Harper is Harper recognizes that any government run by the Libs and NDP will BQ's cabin boy.

And what, Harper hasn't gone to the BQ for support on bills? And beyond that, are you saying that if the Liberals and NDP form some sort of a government, the Tories won't back a Federalist government and force them to look to the Bloc?

This is all very interesting and indicates a very severe lack of dedication to Confederation on the part of the Tories.

[cybercoma]

How do you figure the NDP got 25% of the voter last time right where they are now in BC, if anything the Liberals and the Cons are splitting their vote.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but if it's that I'm wrong, I can accept that if you washed the sarcasm out of your argument.

[Dave_ON]

Why didn't he have the same right as any Canadian to address the nation directly?

The PM is not tantamount to the President, his office does not represent Canada as a nation, his office represents his riding in Calgary, those are the only people his office allows him to speak to or for in any official capacity. If he wants to address the nation as a private citizen that's well and good, but he can't use the office of the PM in such a capacity.

What is disingenuous about attacking an "end-around" coalition that cements the three losing parties? It seemed then and seems now as if the voters in more ridings prefered the CPC and the LPC had far more than 60 fewer ridings than the LPC did. Adding a purely regional, even traiterous party to the mix (since LPC + NDP weren't enough) was to me the icing on the cake.

What is disingenuous is exactly as I've already stated, apparently you don't understand the fundamentals of Canadian politics or so it would seem your word choice implies. There are no losers in parliament, only the winner in a riding gets a seat, the losers in a riding does not. From a traditional perspective all parties "lost" as no one had sufficient seats to form a majority government. As it is if one holds a minority, a coalition is essential if that party that has the most seats wants to remain in government. Now I'm not contesting the ill fated coalition, it was a bad idea, because of the players involved. If it had been left at this specific coalition is bad I would be fine with it. Instead what we have is a number of people calling a normal process in parliament a "coup d'etat", we have a PM acting like our head of state, and we have the blatant overall exploitation of political ignorance. This is where I take issue with the whole affair. It's all well and good to like or dislike something, but at least have the balls to defend your point of view without having to resort to misinformation, half truths or out and out lies.

[nittanylionstorm07]

That is all Harper is objecting to. The only difference between you and Harper is Harper recognizes that any government run by the Libs and NDP will BQ's cabin boy.

Once again, a Con doesn't understand that either a Conservative minority or a Lib/NDP coalition minority will both have to find support from the BQ in order to pass things.

I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand.

[punked]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but if it's that I'm wrong, I can accept that if you washed the sarcasm out of your argument.

I didn't write that with any sarcasm. I was asking a question. I thought you might have some reasoning, like the Liberals are up so they will take votes in this ridding that ridding and so on?

[TimG]

Once again, a Con doesn't understand that either a Conservative minority or a Lib/NDP coalition minority will both have to find support from the BQ in order to pass things.

Why don't you understand that there is no coalition if the CPC forms government. Edited April 20, 2011 by TimG

[cybercoma]

I didn't write that with any sarcasm. I was asking a question. I thought you might have some reasoning, like the Liberals are up so they will take votes in this ridding that ridding and so on?

I was just talking about the last regional breakdown posted in the thread. The NDP are way behind the Liberals and Conservatives in Ontario, but closer to the Liberals in BC. Where August was saying the NDP would split the vote in ON, it seems as though they would be more likely to split the vote in BC.

[nittanylionstorm07]

Why don't you understand that there is no coalition if the CPC forms government.

Your point is?

Both the CPC forming the government and the Libs/NDP forming the government are equally legal and constitutional.

[ToadBrother]

Why don't you understand that there is no coalition if the CPC forms government.

Are you telling me that if the odds are in favor of the other parties defeating the Tories over the Throne Speech that Harper will just be the lamb lead to the slaughter? I don't believe it for a second.

[cybercoma]

People really don't understand that we are a parliamentary monarchy, not a democracy. Look it up and learn about our government. Majorities amount to tyranny under our system and they're highly unusual in just about every other country that uses it or something similar.

[ToadBrother]

People really don't understand that we are a parliamentary monarchy, not a democracy.

This is what is known in technical terms as a false dilemma. We are a constitutional monarchy with a democratically elected Parliament. In other words, we're a form of democracy.

Look it up and learn about our government. Majorities amount to tyranny under our system and they're highly unusual in just about every other country that uses it or something similar.

Most of the Commonwealth Realms use the same system. New Zealand went to a PR system in the 1980s, and Australia's Senate is elected by a PR system as well.

FPTP leads to the kind of Parliament's we usually have.

[M.Dancer]

People really don't understand that we are a parliamentary monarchy, not a democracy. Look it up and learn about our government. Majorities amount to tyranny under our system and they're highly unusual in just about every other country that uses it or something similar.

oy...

[cybercoma]

Indeed. I'm just tired of this constant whining about minorities and coalitions. People need to get used to it.

[Dave_ON]

People really don't understand that we are a parliamentary monarchy, not a democracy. Look it up and learn about our government. Majorities amount to tyranny under our system and they're highly unusual in just about every other country that uses it or something similar.

No we are a constitutional monarchy

[nittanylionstorm07]

I was just talking about the last regional breakdown posted in the thread. The NDP are way behind the Liberals and Conservatives in Ontario, but closer to the Liberals in BC. Where August was saying the NDP would split the vote in ON, it seems as though they would be more likely to split the vote in BC.

To me it looks like this:

BC: NDP vs. split between Libs/CPC (mostly Libs), Inland Rural areas CPC vs. NDP

AB: CPC stronghold

SK: Rural CPC stronghold; Urban CPC vs. NDP

MB: Rural CPC stronghold; Urban CPC vs. split NDP/Libs (trending to mostly NDP)

ON: CPC vs. Libs, NDP vs. Libs in select liberal urban centres

QC: Bloc vs. NDP

NB, PEI, NL: CPC vs. Libs/NDP split (mostly Libs)

NS: CPC vs. NDP

YK/NT/NU: 3-way race, with Libs leading YK and NU and NDP leading NT.

[cybercoma]

No we are a constitutional monarchy

you are correct. doh.