Evening Star Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 What taxpayers don't get is that a govt can't spend its way to prosperity, and in doing so causes problems down the road. I don't think this is an unquestioned truth or anything. Keynesianism is still a respected mainstream school of economics. Quote
eyeball Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 If he'd drop the "we're the only democratic party rhetoric" and give some indication that his party will maintain, at the very least a live and let live stance on moral and other social issues, I'd likely be able to stomach a vote for him. As it stands now, that's not likely to happen in the very near future. The sad fact of the matter is economically I differ very little from the CPC, but I have other personal factors that must be a part of my vote which are equally important to me. Bingo. That fact that at least half of Harper's base of support constantly claims it wants the state off people's backs and yet votes for a party that constantly insists on climbing all over them anyway tells me there is something very fundamentally wrong, either with conservatives or Conservatives or both. Who you trust is one thing but how or why are even more important factors. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GWiz Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 I don't like that part of what they're doing, and I don't think they need to do it. The Harper Conservatives should win based on leadership and management. Ignatieff should go away. I don't want the party that I used to consider my party turning into the NDP, and that's exactly what's happening. Hey my friend, haven't you heard, the Liberals are KEEPING much of the "CONSERVATIVE" budget (the parts that would actually WORK in reducing deficit spending)... Imagine that, a party that take good ideas from BOTH the left and the RIGHT... Has fiscal responsibility as a cornerstone of their "agenda" yet CARES about Canadians... Hell, we haven't had that since, well, the Chretien/Martin Government, when they took Canada from deficits into sustained surpluses and actually paying off the National Debt... Hell, I even AGREE with a lot of CONSERVATIVE ideas like: The Long Gun Registry, it isn't needed because prior to it Canada already had the BEST "Gun Laws" in the civilized world... Support for Canada's Military, in particular the future replacement of Canada's CF-18s, but not the F-35 JSF when Canada can get 100+ F-18e/f SUPER HORNETS (which the Aussies and US Navy are also getting NOW), the NEWEST and WELL PROVEN 4.75 generation version of the venerable F-18, with ALL the cost savings and JOBS (1000s more than the F-35 contract would bring) for a TOTAL expenditure of under $5 BILLION... As a BONUS Canada would be able to get the F-18e/f to where they could "cover" our Military in places like Afghanistan, which neither the current CF-18s NOR the F-35 can do... I firmly believe in Canada's Military having the BEST equipment available in the world, don't you? Getting back to a balanced budget FAST... If that means slower growth for some social benefits and programs, then so be it, it's a hell of a lot better than ending up with no social progams, that's why I'm a Liberal, they actually did it that way and therefore I KNOW they can get results on that front... When one is in THE MIDDLE of the "political spectrum" one can see both sides, not so easy when one is on the EXTREME Right like Harper, or on the EXTREME Left like Layton... I guess "the MIDDLE" of the political spectrum, where over 75% of Canadians are, is the place to be... NOT by rhetoric like Harper and Layton, but by actions, as Ignatieff (though so far in this election he's been looking a little too much "left" for my liking) and the Liberals are... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Bryan Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 When one is in THE MIDDLE of the "political spectrum" one can see both sides, not so easy when one is on the EXTREME Right like Harper, or on the EXTREME Left like Layton... Harper is right in the middle, with a slight leftward lean. If he looks far to the right to you, that means you're a lot farther left than you think you are. Quote
eyeball Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Harper is right in the middle, with a slight leftward lean. If he looks far to the right to you, that means you're a lot farther left than you think you are. It's the top and bottom axis - the ruler vs the ruled - on which Harper has staked his ground and it is clearly nowhere near the middle. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bloodyminded Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 It's the top and bottom axis - the ruler vs the ruled - on which Harper has staked his ground and it is clearly nowhere near the middle. I think this is more accurate; at least, it's more important. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Keepitsimple Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) When one is in THE MIDDLE of the "political spectrum" one can see both sides, not so easy when one is on the EXTREME Right like Harper, or on the EXTREME Left like Layton... I guess "the MIDDLE" of the political spectrum, where over 75% of Canadians are, is the place to be... NOT by rhetoric like Harper and Layton, but by actions, as Ignatieff (though so far in this election he's been looking a little too much "left" for my liking) and the Liberals are... Your figures are a little wobbly. If you exclude BLOC votes in the last election which I feel good about doing, then by your view of the world, 42% of Canadians are EXTREME Right Wing (Conservative), 20% are EXTREME Left Wing (NDP), 8% have stars in their eyes (Green) and only 30% of Canadians are in the Middle (Liberals). You seem to have little use for the large majority of Canadians. Edited April 6, 2011 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
Evening Star Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Your figures are a little wobbly. If you exclude BLOC votes in the last election which I feel good about doing, then by your view of the world, 42% of Canadians are EXTREME Right Wing (Conservative), 20% are EXTREME Left Wing (NDP), 8% have stars in their eyes (Green) and only 30% of Canadians are in the Middle (Liberals). You seem to have little use for the large majority of Canadians. Why exclude Bloc votes? And using the same logic, if you think the CPC are the centre (or centre-left!), then at least 60% of the country is pretty far left for you. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) Why exclude Bloc votes? And using the same logic, if you think the CPC are the centre (or centre-left!), then at least 60% of the country is pretty far left for you. 1) Why exclude Bloc votes?...because I feel good doing that - they thumb their noses at Federalism.... 2) I never claimed that Conservatives were at the very Center - I was simply disputing Gwiz Gwillikers claim that the Liberals were at the Center, Conservatives were EXTREME right, and the NDP were EXTREME left - because that is utter nonsense. 3) Yes, the 20% representing the NDP is too far Left for me. However, there are many Liberals that I would feel politically comfortable with. I think some of them are getting very restless with the Liberal Lurch to the Left that they are witnessing. Edited April 6, 2011 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 But you'd flip your wig if they tried to criminalize scotch again. That's called hypocrisy. Nah... I don't drink THAT much... I'd probably start making my own hooch... Sorry...It's just not that big a deal... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 I don't like that part of what they're doing, and I don't think they need to do it. The Harper Conservatives should win based on leadership and management. Ignatieff should go away. I don't want the party that I used to consider my party turning into the NDP, and that's exactly what's happening. C'mon... Ignatieff is running a classic Liberal campaign of campaigning on the Left and,if possible,governing from the Right... It remains to be seen if it actually works this time... If you think Igantieff is a left of centre Liberal like Dion,I think you're mistaken... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Smallc Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 If you think Igantieff is a left of centre Liberal like Dion,I think you're mistaken... But this time, he'd be governing from a minority, and o he's have to appease the NDP and the Bloc. It would be a campaign from the left, and a government from the left. Quote
GWiz Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Harper is right in the middle, with a slight leftward lean. If he looks far to the right to you, that means you're a lot farther left than you think you are. Actually what it means is you have no "perspective" of where Harper is since you've gone so far right that even Harper is to the left of YOU... You know, where anything to the left "looks like" the middle to you... Anyone, especially me, actually in the political middle sees Harper standing out there way off to the right and doesn't see you at all... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 But this time, he'd be governing from a minority, and o he's have to appease the NDP and the Bloc. It would be a campaign from the left, and a government from the left. Maybe... Or he can propose legislation the opposition can support??? There's more than one way to skin a cat.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) Actually what it means is you have no "perspective" of where Harper is since you've gone so far right that even Harper is to the left of YOU... You know, where anything to the left "looks like" the middle to you... Anyone, especially me, actually in the political middle sees Harper standing out there way off to the right and doesn't see you at all... Remember... He has gobs of credibility because gives his money and time to Conservative party... Edited April 6, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Smallc Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Maybe... Or he can propose legislation the opposition can support??? There's more than one way to skin a cat.... I don't see the Conservatives supporting him very often if he at all sticks to his platform planks. Quote
Evening Star Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) 1) Why exclude Bloc votes?...because I feel good doing that - they thumb their noses at Federalism.... But they're Canadian citizens and voters too. And the BQ is about as far left as the NDP so doing this distorts your results. 2) I never claimed that Conservatives were at the very Center - I was simply disputing Gwiz Gwillikers claim that the Liberals were at the Center, Conservatives were EXTREME right, and the NDP were EXTREME left ... You're right. I was thinking of Bryan's comment: Harper is right in the middle, with a slight leftward lean. If he looks far to the right to you, that means you're a lot farther left than you think you are. which basically seems to suggest that 60% of the country is pretty far left. 3) Yes, the 20% representing the NDP is too far Left for me. However, there are many Liberals that I would feel politically comfortable with. I think some of them are getting very restless with the Liberal Lurch to the Left that they are witnessing. Maybe... but the Liberals only broke 30% when they moved in this direction... Btw, I do actually agree that the Conservatives are nowhere near as far right as the US Republicans or perhaps even the UK Conservatives... Edited April 6, 2011 by Evening Star Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) I don't see the Conservatives supporting him very often if he at all sticks to his platform planks. How many times did Mr. Ignatieff support the Conservatives in the last session of Parliament??? That should be the barometer... It would seem,legislatively at least,there seems to be an agreement between the two party's... I really doubt much would change if Mr. Harper got another minority...Or Mr. Ignatieff got an unlikely minority... Edited April 6, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 2) I never claimed that Conservatives were at the very Center - I was simply disputing Gwiz Gwillikers claim that the Liberals were at the Center, Conservatives were EXTREME right, and the NDP were EXTREME left - because that is utter nonsense. I agree. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
GWiz Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Remember... He has gobs of credibility because gives his money and time to Conservative party... Too bad CON creds ain't "street" creds... The former being completely worthless on the street so to speak... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Evening Star Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 I agree. Yeah, I do actually agree that it's silly to say the CPC is extreme right and the NDP is extreme left. Quote
GWiz Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 But this time, he'd be governing from a minority, and o he's have to appease the NDP and the Bloc. It would be a campaign from the left, and a government from the left. Why? Seems to me that a "first choice" of support for a centrist Liberal Government could come equally from the Left or the Right... In fact, in my view, that's a very GOOD reason to support the Liberal position and the Liberal party itself for that matter... As Harper himself said, Ignatieff has the support from the Left already, so if the Right, being the CPC, want's to be a "player" in shaping Liberal policies that are beneficial to Canada and Canadians, I see no reason at all for Ignatieff and the Liberals not to welcome ideas from the Right every bit as much as they welcome ideas from the Left... Remember that I'm a conservative centrist Liberal... While I hate the GST in any form, I hate deficit spending and debt even more... Keeping a balance between NEEDS and having the ability to pay up front for those needs is where I'm at... The Liberals are simply closest to my way of thinking, no more and no less than that... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Smallc Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Why? Seems to me that a "first choice" of support for a centrist Liberal Government could come equally from the Left or the Right... That assumes we'll have a centrist Liberal government, in the Chretien or Martin style. Quote
GWiz Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 That assumes we'll have a centrist Liberal government, in the Chretien or Martin style. Yes it does... And I think CURRENT Liberal policies when taken in total show just that... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
ToadBrother Posted April 6, 2011 Report Posted April 6, 2011 Yes it does... And I think CURRENT Liberal policies when taken in total show just that... Well, if we assume that all those left-leaning promises are ignored like the Red Book was. Quote
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