trophy photos with dead civilians

[GostHacked]

The soldiers were most definitely "called out." I provided links, one of which provides many other links. As for "when it happens," you make it sound as if it's an ongoing thing, as if this is just one of many instances that "are happening." This is not comparable to the coffins being returned home. One is part of the official war; an ongoing part of any war. The latter is a group of rogue soldiers, and the incident had nothing to do "officially" with the U.S. military and/or government nor is it part of "what's happening." The murders weren't sanctioned, called for, supported by, cheered over, condoned. Quite the opposite. They are not an official part of the war. Of course there are random acts of horror just as there are random acts of horror in every war, on both sides. We don't in any way condone this or encourage it as part of the fight. Quite the opposite.

There was not as much media play with these soldiers as there was with the coffins. Yes it happened a year ago, but why was it not bigger news?

What these soldiers did has nothing to do with our purpose for being there and/or with official actions. It was a random group of soldiers acting on their own and they are being severely dealt with, as they should be. To try to tie this into the reasons we are there, to try to use this as a reason we shouldn't be there, to tie it into "western interests" is totally out of line.

Actually they are not out of line. Our militaries are there for our national interests and not the interests of the locals of the newly formed puppet Afghanistan government. Same with Iraq.

You could be right, but on the other hand, perhaps the look he gave you was saying he wasn't comfortable talking about it with you. As for having changed him, I think it would go without saying that most people who serve time in a war zone do change; that they are changed by the experience.

The guy was a very close friend (I guess I still consider him as much) But he did not have that look on his face after the two tours in Bosnia. And more to the point that we do need to support our troops, but it's when they arrive home where they need the most help.

[Guest American Woman]

There was not as much media play with these soldiers as there was with the coffins. Yes it happened a year ago, but why was it not bigger news?

Perhaps because the coffins were an onging occurrence, an official part of war, while these murders were not. There was no question that these murders were wrong, that what these soldiers did was wrong, that they should be held accountable. What was the media supposed to keep reporting? Over and over? But there was a lot of coverage at the time it was brought to light. It just didn't go on as long as the coffin controversy did, likely for the reasons stated. But I recalled hearing about it as soon as I read the opening post of this thread. There's coverage again as they are being brought to trial. It is, and has been, big news.

Actually they are not out of line. Our militaries are there for our national interests and not the interests of the locals of the newly formed puppet Afghanistan government. Same with Iraq.

That's your opinion, which I'm not going to comment on one way or the other, as it has nothing at all to do with these random acts of murder.

The guy was a very close friend (I guess I still consider him as much) But he did not have that look on his face after the two tours in Bosnia. And more to the point that we do need to support our troops, but it's when they arrive home where they need the most help.

I don't disagree that the troops need the most help when they arrive home, but I'm not sure what point you are making in regards to this topic. Furthermore, he's older now than he was when he returned from Bosnia, and most often, it's over time that the veterans change. And of course Bosnia wasn't put under a microscope for many years the way this war is, so perhaps it didn't make him uncomfortable to talk about it the way he may have been when you questioned him. Out of curiosity, did you ask him if he had killed anyone when you saw him after he had served in Bosnia? I'm not trying to speculate as to how he felt, I'm just pointing out that if he was indeed uncomfortable talking about it, it could have been for different reasons than you surmise. At any rate, you are speculating about him and his feelings and using it to somehow make a point about this topic, which I just don't see any connection to, and in regards to our purpose for being there, and I'm just not seeing any relevancy.

[wyly]

And people though Abu Garib was a disgusting fiasco.

I take it that you never saw any photos of the gang rapes in Abu Garib...rapes both male and female, torture, murder, Abu Garib had it all, but nothing a good lawyer couldn't get them out of...

[Moonlight Graham]

Disgusting photos. Hopefully some kind of non-b.s. investigation will look into this matter, and those responsible will be be held accountable and some kind of reform implemented. I want to know how high in the chain there were people who knew about this kind of behaviour and did nothing about it.

There sure are some sick sons of biatches in this world.

[Guest American Woman]

Disgusting photos. Hopefully some kind of non-b.s. investigation will look into this matter, and those responsible will be be held accountable and some kind of reform implemented. I want to know how high in the chain there were people who knew about this kind of behaviour and did nothing about it.

There sure are some sick sons of biatches in this world.

"Reform?" You think "reform" would stop the "sick sons of biatches in this world" from ever committing horrible acts of murder? And in case you truly missed it in spite of the posts/links/media coverage pertaining to it, "those responsible" are "be[ing] held accountable."

[bush_cheney2004]

"Reform?" You think "reform" would stop the "sick sons of biatches in this world" from ever committing horrible acts of murder? And in case you truly missed it in spite of the posts/links/media coverage pertaining to it, "those responsible" are "be[ing] held accountable."

Agreed...just as stated when this story originally broke last year. Criminal behaviour is prosecuted in the military in no small measure because it is far more difficult to maintain force discipline and effectiveness without doing so.

[Moonlight Graham]

"Reform?" You think "reform" would stop the "sick sons of biatches in this world" from ever committing horrible acts of murder? And in case you truly missed it in spite of the posts/links/media coverage pertaining to it, "those responsible" are "be[ing] held accountable."

I must have just caught the end of the story i saw on TV. I thought this was a newly discovered incident, not one related to something from a while ago. I'm glad some of these people are being put in jail for this and they are indeed being held responsible.

This story makes you wonder just how often civilians are murdered by soldiers in more discrete circumstances, without the big conspiracy of the group that acted together in this case, ie: a soldier or two acting in isolation & taking out a civilian or two, or more if they are fighting the enemy at the same time, and nobody knowing the wiser.

It also makes me wonder what kind of atmosphere was cultivated by their command over there. I'm talking about reform because maybe there are ways when this kind of thing could be better prevented. This wasn't a case of just 1 or 2 guys going crazy.

[bush_cheney2004]

....It also makes me wonder what kind of atmosphere was cultivated by their command over there. I'm talking about reform because maybe there are ways when this kind of thing could be better prevented. This wasn't a case of just 1 or 2 guys going crazy.

It's not just "over there"....homicide is homicide....back home too. Expecting different behaviour under more stress doesn't make much sense. "Reform" won't change that.

[Moonlight Graham]

It's not just "over there"....homicide is homicide....back home too. Expecting different behaviour under more stress doesn't make much sense. "Reform" won't change that.

Maybe a good piece of reform would be to make digital cameras standard issue so more of these idiots can keep incriminating themselves

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe a good piece of reform would be to make digital cameras standard issue so more of these idiots can keep incriminating themselves

....they would just go back to the traditional American method....scalps.

[DogOnPorch]

....they would just go back to the traditional American method....scalps.

...or ears in the Commonwealth. Huzzah!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha

Then you might have also heard tale as to what the ROK troops in Viet-Nam did in terms of 'prizes'. Sure scared the hell outta the slopes as Col. Kilgore might say.

[no1ninja]

I have no personal experience in such matters, I would hope none of us do.

At the same time, if you were in such a situation. I could see how such behaviour would be a coping mechanism to hide the true fear and stress that such a job would en tale. I don't know about you guys, but if I was stuck in a firefight, I would want cold blooded killers with little morals next to me, rather than someone debating ethics.

It's a dirty job, the horrors that one sees are real. So a strategy may need to be developed for coping with such scenes and making them feel routine. I kind of feel sorry for those soldiers, because some of them do not YET realize the kind of pandora's box they have opened in their heads. In 20-30 years it may be those pictures that makes one these guys put a slug in to the side of their own head, unable to cope or justify his own existence.

Edited March 26, 2011 by no1ninja

[Oleg Bach]

Americian economic interests have always resided in war - weapons of war and the plunder that force guarentees internationally. One of the primary reasons they dummy down the American populace through a thrid rate educational system is done sublimely with indirect intent..It is to create a population that is so ignorant that they percieve non- Americans as not being human - just things "collateral" in some far off land they can not point out on a map let alone understand the culture - This conditioning of America makes it much easier to kill for profit...It is almost a type of Christian Zionism - where all those not part of the American family are sub-human. Look at the video games kids are conditioned though......

I heard and inserted commercial stuck at the end of a video game...called Call Of Duty...it said "I used to have a good job at the car plant and then lost it...now I am force to fight on the front lines" -------------this is propoganda at it's best...it addicts young people electronically to warfare...and indirectly is a recruitment device...insidiously dishonest!

[Guest American Woman]

I kind of feel sorry for those soldiers, because some of them do not YET realize the kind of pandora's box they have opened in their heads. In 20-30 years it may be those pictures that makes one these guys put a slug in to the side of their own head, unable to cope or justify his own existence.

I think this is so true, which is what I was saying to Gosthacked about his friend, if he has indeed changed the way he has perceived. I doubt whether it was 'easier' to kill in Bosnia than in Afghanistan; that it would leave one's mind freer from the horror of war in one instance over the other. We heard the same about the Vietnam vets; they'd been home for awhile before the suicides started.

We as a people, nation, military recognize that what these soldiers did was wrong, and they are being held accountable for it. But for some, only one side is judged/held accountable in this way for targeting and killing civilians. When the other side does it somehow always goes back to being the fault of the other side. It's understandable. They have a right to fight back. Must be confusing to some of the troops over there being shot at, not getting sleep, on drugs, trained to kill. I'm in no way making excuses, what they did was cold blooded murder, but I get tired of excuses being made for the other side. There is never an excuse for killing civilians. It's never part of anyone's "right." It's never "understandable," especially when applied to only one side.

[WIP]

We as a people, nation, military recognize that what these soldiers did was wrong, and they are being held accountable for it. But for some, only one side is judged/held accountable in this way for targeting and killing civilians.

The longer wars drag on, the more war crimes will be committed...it's a simple fact of life that men who are at best, borderline psychopaths, will be the ones who rise to the top in a war zone. My suspicions are that the "super soldiers" who don't get stressed by PTSD would likely be incarcerated in peacetime situations. So, if America has become dependent on continuous, neverending war to appease the makers and suppliers of the weapons of war, stories such as these will keep bubbling up to the surface. Keep in mind that there is a lot of anecdotal evidence from witnesses that most war crimes are successfully covered up and go on without notice. What better place for a serial killer to indulge his fantasies than in Iraq or Afghanistan!

When the other side does it somehow always goes back to being the fault of the other side. It's understandable. They have a right to fight back. Must be confusing to some of the troops over there being shot at, not getting sleep, on drugs, trained to kill. I'm in no way making excuses, what they did was cold blooded murder, but I get tired of excuses being made for the other side. There is never an excuse for killing civilians. It's never part of anyone's "right." It's never "understandable," especially when applied to only one side.

Doesn't it say something in the Bible about how easy it is to find fault in the "other side?" Anyway, these wars are happening over there, not Here, so many villagers will pick up a rifle and become unlawful combatants because foreign soldiers have invaded their valleys, so the average villager in Afghanistan has a better case than America & Co. who don't even have a clear objective or an exit strategy telling us when they are getting out. And whatever justifications there were ten years ago about getting Bin Laden and Al Qaeda have vanished, and new excuses have had to be found to keep the wars going. The war in Iraq and 99% of America's foreign policy problmes in the MiddleEast would not even exist if it wasn't for the decision to use gunboat diplomacy to maintain control of the flow of oil from MiddleEastern nations to the West.

[no1ninja]

The war has become an industry in Afghanistan. The local government needs insurgents to keep the coalition pumping their money into the economy. (If there is no need for local security, they will make it up, tribes need to get their money, if they don't get it, they will just cause security problems until they do.)

What would the Afghan government actually do if the war was won?

Edited March 26, 2011 by no1ninja

[Shwa]

Yes, when it is done officially on a larger scale, we call it "Bomb Damage Assessment".

On the smaller scale Canadians call it an "affair." Like the 'Somalia Affair' a mere 8 years ago.

WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTO: Somalia Affair

[GostHacked]

I think this is so true, which is what I was saying to Gosthacked about his friend, if he has indeed changed the way he has perceived. I doubt whether it was 'easier' to kill in Bosnia than in Afghanistan; that it would leave one's mind freer from the horror of war in one instance over the other. We heard the same about the Vietnam vets; they'd been home for awhile before the suicides started.

I don't believe he killed anyone in Bosnia. And I don't ever recall him saying anything about it. I don't think I ever asked him about that in regards to his tours in Bosnia.

[GostHacked]

On the smaller scale Canadians call it an "affair." Like the 'Somalia Affair' a mere 8 years ago.

WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTO: Somalia Affair

Disgusting and disturbing.

[Oleg Bach]

They should be more modern and sporting while engaged in warfare....kind of like modern fishing...a catch and release program...You just put hook in the enemies mouth - hang him on a scale for a minute in order to take the picture - then send them on their way...that way you never run out of enemies and can continue the buisness of war indefinitely! Heaven forbid that peace becomes popular...maybe...they should restrict the weaponry of those in the infantry and have them use cross bows and compound bows?

[Guest American Woman]

I don't believe he killed anyone in Bosnia. And I don't ever recall him saying anything about it. I don't think I ever asked him about that in regards to his tours in Bosnia.

That's sort of my point -- why did you ask him if he had killed anyone in Afghanistan but not Bosnia? And wouldn't you think such a question could perhaps account for his demeanor this time you saw him vs. when you saw him after Bosnia but didn't raise such a question? I think it would make me uncomfortable to have such a question put directly to me, especially not know why it was being asked (ie: the attitude behind it). But since you brought both up, do you think there is a difference between having killed someone in Bosnia, from having served in Bosnia, and having killed someone, having served, in Afghanistan?

[GostHacked]

That's sort of my point -- why did you ask him if he had killed anyone in Afghanistan but not Bosnia? And wouldn't you think such a question could perhaps account for his demeanor this time you saw him vs. when you saw him after Bosnia but didn't raise such a question? I think it would make me uncomfortable to have such a question put directly to me, especially not know why it was being asked (ie: the attitude behind it). But since you brought both up, do you think there is a difference between having killed someone in Bosnia, from having served in Bosnia, and having killed someone, having served, in Afghanistan?

As I said a couple posts back, and I'll repeat it for you, I don't think he killed anyone in Bosina. But in the end I did not ask him that a that time because I really did not think of it. But knowing the guy since we were young teenagers, he was still the same person after Bosina. That was not the case after Afghanistan. I asked because I was concerned about him. With that kind of history between us as close friends, I wanted to know. And we talked about it. I asked because I care about the guy.

Edited March 27, 2011 by GostHacked

[Guest American Woman]

As I said a couple posts back, and I'll repeat it for you, I don't think he killed anyone in Bosina.

No need to repeat it for me. I read what you said, but what you "think" has nothing to do with reality. I have no idea how you could possibly know without asking, hence my comments.

But in the end I did not ask him that a that time because I really did not think of it.

And I'm wondering why you didn't think of it. I'm thinking it's because of the reputation/press/et al that Bosnia got vs what Afghanistan is getting; and that has an effect on those who serve, too.

But knowing the guy since we were young teenagers, he was still the same person after Bosina. That was not the case after Afghanistan. I asked because I was concerned about him. With that kind of history between us as close friends, I wanted to know. And we talked about it. I asked because I care about the guy.

I generally ask if someone is doing ok after such an experience, and if they say no, I ask if they want to talk about what is bothering them. I wouldn't ask, "did you kill anyone?" out of concern. In fact, I'd be really hesitant to ask something like that of someone I cared about who I thought was having problems/PTSS. I'm not saying that as criticism as I realize we all do things differently, so please don't take it that way, but to explain how I see it; where I'm coming from with the observations I've made. And with that, I'll repeat again that time has a way of catching up with people who have served time in war(s). You seem to think Bosnia didn't affect him but Afghanistan did, and I'd still have to wonder why if there weren't more involved.

I will also say that whether he killed anyone in Bosnia or not, other people did, so I don't see how that would Bosnia less traumatic than Afghanistan is. For him, perhaps. But not overall. So again, I don't understand what point you were making.

[GostHacked]

No need to repeat it for me. I read what you said, but what you "think" has nothing to do with reality. I have no idea how you could possibly know without asking, hence my comments.

The need to repeat was there because you kept going on about it.

And I'm wondering why you didn't think of it. I'm thinking it's because of the reputation/press/et al that Bosnia got vs what Afghanistan is getting; and that has an effect on those who serve, too.

You can wonder all you want, I don't have an answer, or one you might accept anyways.

I generally ask if someone is doing ok after such an experience, and if they say no, I ask if they want to talk about what is bothering them. I wouldn't ask, "did you kill anyone?" out of concern.

I care about the guy. So that is why I asked. There is a long history between us growing up. He would not have said anything if he did not want to talk about it. The tough questions need to be asked in order to understand.

In fact, I'd be really hesitant to ask something like that of someone I cared about who I thought was having problems/PTSS. I'm not saying that as criticism as I realize we all do things differently, so please don't take it that way, but to explain how I see it; where I'm coming from with the observations I've made. And with that, I'll repeat again that time has a way of catching up with people who have served time in war(s). You seem to think Bosnia didn't affect him but Afghanistan did, and I'd still have to wonder why if there weren't more involved.

I am not afraid of asking those questions. The only way to help and show you care is to dig into it, and help them deal with it. There is no sense in keeping it in and having it eat you from the inside out. He has a wife and two daughters than rely on him and his mental state and stability. Sorry for fucking caring.

It was more of a side not that you ran with and kept questioning. So we can drop this and get back to the thread topic at hand.

[Guest American Woman]

The need to repeat was there because you kept going on about it. [...]

Sorry for fucking caring. [...]

It was more of a side not that you ran with and kept questioning. So we can drop this and get back to the thread topic at hand.

Get over yourself. I clearly said I in no way intended criticism, but was just trying to understand where you were coming from in regards to the point you were trying to make.

So the need to keep going on about it was there because, I repeat, I wasn't sure I was clear as to your point, but I'm now satisfied that you were using it as evidence that this war is worse than others; worse than Bosnia, at least -- why else would you bring it up? -- and it just isn't evidence of that at all.

I know people serving, or who have served, too, and I doubt they'd appreciate your insinuation that this war is somehow worse than others; that the troops are more bothered by this war because worse things are going on in Afghanistan. So you care about your friend, and I care about the people I know.

You disapprove of this war, obviously. Others don't disapprove, and there are others still who aren't cut and dried about it one way or the other; but a lot of the troops there have a lot to be proud of and a lot to feel good about. Many of them have done good things, and while I'm sorry that your friend apparently doesn't feel that way, that doesn't mean this war is any worse, any more wrong, than other wars, and I think it's an injustice to those who have served, are serving, for the good of the people, to insinuate otherwise based on your friend (who I sincerely hope is doing well). If you don't like having this type of personal discussion, then I suggest you don't bring personal examples into the discussions any more. As I said, it all hits a personal note with me, too. You aren't alone there.

What the soldiers in question did was wrong, disgusting, and unfortunately not unique to U.S. troops and/or the war in Afghanistan.

Edited March 29, 2011 by American Woman