Shwa Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Interesting story from today's Star: Skin colour matters in access to good jobs: study A “colour code” is keeping visible minorities out of good jobs in the Canadian labour market, a new study says.Based on 2006 long-form Census data, researchers found visible minority Canadian workers earned 81.4 cents for every dollar paid to their Caucasian counterparts. That’s according to a report by two major think tanks, the Wellesley Institute and Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Well, it is possible that if we get rid of that long-form census, that should take care of the problem... But this piqued my curiousity and I sometimes wonder if the editorial staff even read through some of the articles they allow... What is most troublesome, Block said, is that visible minorities were so under-represented in public administration, where 92 per cent of workers were white. In 2006, 16.2 per cent of Canadians were part of a visible minority group, and that rate is expected to double by 2031.“We are not talking about workers in hospital or school, but people making government policy,” said Block. “This is a great concern because an important voice wasn’t at the table.” The use of the word "voice" when talking about skin colour.
Scotty Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Most visible minority members are immigrants with poor language skills. When talking public administration, not to mention any other higher level jobs, your communications skills matter - a lot. It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Molly Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Most visible minority members are immigrants with poor language skills. When talking public administration, not to mention any other higher level jobs, your communications skills matter - a lot. I don't believe that's true. I'm betting that most folks who are members of visible minorities are Canadian born amd as articulate as anybody else. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
M.Dancer Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 I don't believe that's true. I'm betting that most folks who are members of visible minorities are Canadian born amd as articulate as anybody else. Perhaps...but they are 15 years old.... I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of Adult (or at least a significant minority) minorities are foreign born. RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Molly Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~pendakur/pdf%20docs/VisMin_1967-2017.pdf There we go. Check out pages 9 and 10, and this: Summary – labour force gaps • Visible minorities, even those born in Canada, earn less than majority workers with similar characteristics. • The earnings differentials faced by visible minorities are persistent over time. • The earnings gap is often worse at the bottom of the distribution. • The gap is very different by gender. – Visible minority women do not face the same magnitude of earnings discrimination as do men. Edited March 21, 2011 by Molly "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Molly Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) I can keep looking, but 1 in 6 Canadians self-identifies as a visible minority. I don't know how many of that number are foreign born, but a honking large number aren't, and when we start counting up foreign -born, some fairly large number of them are not visible minorities... Anyone who wants more exact numbers is welcome to go looking for them on their own time, but I'm personally satisfied that second-language skills is not the issue. Heck, just within the opening link: "The colour code persisted for second-generation Canadians with similar education and age, though the gap narrowed slightly — with visible minority women making 56.5 cents, up from 48.7 cents in 2000, for every dollar white men earned, while minority men in the same cohort improved by almost 7 cents, to 75.6 cents." We are not talking language skills. Edited March 21, 2011 by Molly "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Molly, I'm not sure what your cite is supposed to support. I think Scotty and Morris have pointed out some valid concerns with the conclusions. The study says that age and education were accounted for in the model, but I'm not sure how this could have been done. I'm going to take a closer look. Also of note: The data show that if there is work to do, racialized Canadians are willing to do it: 67.3% of racialized Canadians are in the labour force — slightly higher than non-racialized Canadians (66.7%).1 The term racialized is used to acknowledge “race” as a social construct and a way of describing a group of people. Racialization is the process through which groups come to be designated as different and on that basis subjected to differential and unequal treatment. In the present context, racialized groups include those who may experience differential treatment on the basis of race, ethnicity, language, economics, religion (Canadian Race Relations Foundation, 2008). This paper uses data from the 2006 Census on visible minority status. Visible Minority status is self-reported and refers to the visible minority group to which the respondent belongs. The Employment Equity Act defines visible minorities as ‘persons, other than Aboriginal peoples, who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour. Census respondents were asked” Is this person…white, Chinese, South Asian, Black, Filipino, Latin American, Southeast Asian, Arab, West Asian, Japanese, Korean, Other (specify). Wellsley Institute Study Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~pendakur/pdf%20docs/VisMin_1967-2017.pdf There we go. Check out pages 9 and 10, and this: Summary – labour force gaps • Visible minorities, even those born in Canada, earn less than majority workers with similar characteristics. • Or maybe not. Visible minority status was linked with low income for immigrants, but not for non-immigrants. Canadian-born visible minorities were no more likely than others born in Canada to experience low income. If anything, the tendency was for visible minorities to be less likely than other non-immigrants to experience low income, although the difference was not statistically significant Stats Canada It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) I can keep looking, but 1 in 6 Canadians self-identifies as a visible minority. I don't know how many of that number are foreign born, but a honking large number aren't, and when we start counting up foreign -born, some fairly large number of them are not visible minorities... Errrr...would those be considered non-visible minorities? Does the wavelength of light matter? Edited March 21, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Scotty Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 I can keep looking, but 1 in 6 Canadians self-identifies as a visible minority. I don't know how many of that number are foreign born, but a honking large number aren't, and when we start counting up foreign -born, some fairly large number of them are not visible minorities... Two thirds of visible minority members are foreign born. And I bet if we exclude the kids we'd find that number even higher. Stats Canada It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) This is a high-quality discussion... numbers numbers numbers. Ok, the strangest thing about the report is that it really only repeats stats that are available already from the Stats Canada site below, as I found: Stats Can Click 4 - Visible Minority Groups, and the Data Table. I found the following, which seems to indicate colour isn't so much an issue as it seems: Not a visible minority 3rd generation or more 25 to 44 years University certificate or degree NOT a minority Median employment income $ 46,184 46,846 Average employment income $ 55,578 56,071 Visble Minority Median employment income $ 47,332 46,403 Average employment income $ 56,626 54,991 Edited March 21, 2011 by Michael Hardner Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
scouterjim Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Interesting story from today's Star: Skin colour matters in access to good jobs: study Well, it is possible that if we get rid of that long-form census, that should take care of the problem... But this piqued my curiousity and I sometimes wonder if the editorial staff even read through some of the articles they allow... The use of the word "voice" when talking about skin colour. Don't worry. A Liberal or NDP government will make it illegal to hire a caucasian ahead of a "visible minority". It is politically correct to do so. I have captured the rare duct taped platypus.
RB Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Interesting story from today's Star: Skin colour matters in access to good jobs: study I do believe that the colour of the skin influences the hire. However, I also believe that there has been significant effort by employers to make opportunities become available to minorities. What I meant is if you are good, have potential, then you get hired. Employers have changed their recruitment practices in finding the right candidate for the job. Minorities including (Canadian born) who eventually make to higher jobs are 2-3 folds more "Canadian" educated (minorities coming from abroad with their so called inferior education usually head off to be reeducated in order to fit and meet the requirements of the hiring companies)...have to work harder to please, and even then they are missing the certain "je ne sais quoi" to tip to the next level. Now I think it has to do with the minority assimilation of culture, growing up within their community and lack of networking within within the economic group albeit other reasons one being the ingredients of how they (the minorities) can become successful using that which they cannot change i.e. color. The accents are not touched on but the desirability for speaking fluent English or French will shut a good percentage out of the hiring process and if I had to make a guess I would even make a claim of over 60% would not be hired for higher opportunities. And it has nothing to do with pulling names out of the hat because the employer have the numbers to choose, luck et al - they are just not meeting the requirements.
The_Squid Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 This is a high-quality discussion... numbers numbers numbers. Ok, the strangest thing about the report is that it really only repeats stats that are available already from the Stats Canada site below, as I found: Stats Can Click 4 - Visible Minority Groups, and the Data Table. I found the following, which seems to indicate colour isn't so much an issue as it seems: Not a visible minority 3rd generation or more 25 to 44 years University certificate or degree NOT a minority Median employment income $ 46,184 46,846 Average employment income $ 55,578 56,071 Visble Minority Median employment income $ 47,332 46,403 Average employment income $ 56,626 54,991 This post refutes the story from the original post quite well. The difference claimed by the T.O. Star is false. Now the question is, why would they print such misleading garbage?
Saipan Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Skin colour matters in access to good jobs Could be. I have snowball's chance in a hell to work in indian casino. Or be elected in band council. Likewise when police hire to increase "quotas" I can't be even considered.
guyser Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 I have snowball's chance in a hell to work in indian casino. Not true at all. Or be elected in band council. Likewise when police hire to increase "quotas" I can't be even considered. Have you Native Indian blood? If not then fine, add in you cant be Miss Canada or Miss Universe, dont have a medical degree..?.....you can t be a Doctor either.... You cant be a MENSA member to boot. Dont bothering to try either. As for being a Cop, it is as simple as applying to CO Bick. You will get hired. That you think it is something else is telling.
scribblet Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Don't worry. A Liberal or NDP government will make it illegal to hire a caucasian ahead of a "visible minority". It is politically correct to do so. Could happen, it was close in the hey day of employment equity which was supposed to be voluntary, but in fact was pretty rigorously imposed and practiced in many areas. I can attest to what was done in the name of EE in order to hire from target groups. If anyone has gone to gov't offices in Toronto or spoken to anyone on the phone, you are hard pressed to find a caucasian employee, visible minorities are no longer under represented, in Toronto at least. Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
BornAlbertan Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) This post refutes the story from the original post quite well. The difference claimed by the T.O. Star is false. Now the question is, why would they print such misleading garbage? 1. http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm 2. Because it has to be the fault of the Conservatives and an election is looming Edited March 21, 2011 by BornAlbertan
guyser Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 If anyone has gone to gov't offices in Toronto or spoken to anyone on the phone, you are hard pressed to find a caucasian employee, visible minorities are no longer under represented, in Toronto at least. Well, maybe just one...........Whitey ! (I kid I kid)
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Don't worry. A Liberal or NDP government will make it illegal to hire a caucasian ahead of a "visible minority". It is politically correct to do so. I guess you didn't read the thread. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 This post refutes the story from the original post quite well. The difference claimed by the T.O. Star is false. Now the question is, why would they print such misleading garbage? They just printed the study, and the study itself takes time to verify. I believe that I got lucky in that the Stats Can site was up, and was easy to use. Most government sites are neither of those things. That said, I was also clever enough to look at the factors and pick away at the model to come up with an anomaly, if that's what it is. Too bad that traditional media (i.e. published studies, government statistics and newspapers like The Star) are SO inferior to web forums such as this. They only provide information one way, which is as useful as a one-way door. If they allowed for interactive engagement, then we could go back to the person who published this and ask about their anomaly. As it is, their point just rots in the sun like a dead donkey. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Likewise when police hire to increase "quotas" I can't be even considered. That's not true. We had an extensive discussion on this a few months ago and someone pointed out that their son (or some relative) was told by a guidance counsellor: "Don't bother applying for these jobs unless you're in the quota group" That was misinterpreted as meaning that they weren't hiring people not in the group. In fact, the vast majority of those hired were white males, however white males applied for the job in such high numbers that the chances were small to get in. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
BornAlbertan Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 That's not true. We had an extensive discussion on this a few months ago and someone pointed out that their son (or some relative) was told by a guidance counsellor: "Don't bother applying for these jobs unless you're in the quota group" That was misinterpreted as meaning that they weren't hiring people not in the group. In fact, the vast majority of those hired were white males, however white males applied for the job in such high numbers that the chances were small to get in. No matter...quotas are wrong. Period. It should go on merits and suitability to do a job not because you have a different colour skin or don't have a pecker.
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 No matter...quotas are wrong. Period. It should go on merits and suitability to do a job not because you have a different colour skin or don't have a pecker. I think that this shows an example of why quotas can be a good idea. 99% of applicants being white males strikes me as being a bad situation for a job that requires knowledge of human nature. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 No matter...quotas are wrong. Period. It should go on merits and suitability to do a job not because you have a different colour skin or don't have a pecker. Also, merits aren't used in hiring, to my knowledge - qualifications are. If someone meets the qualifications, then they can be hired. They don't hire people based on how much they can lift or how high their IQ is, just on whether they have the required strength and IQ to do the work. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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