eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 But if sexual interest in attractive young women, even if they are under 18, is instinctive and genetic, why should we feel contempt and shun someone who feels that interest? We're not suggesting they should act upon it, for that would in most circumstances be considered morally deficient. However, the sexual interest itself is not something men have any control over. Men can definitely control whatever actions their urges compel. The sexual interest that is communicated by unmitigated staring and ogling can be confusing and frightening to young girls and it can make them quite uncomfortable. It can put them in an awkward position when it comes to speaking up about it, especially if the lechery is coming from someone they know or is a friend of their parents or the parent of a friend etc. It can create a lot of unnecessary and potentially harmful social tension. It's the staring and ogling that can be controlled and it's the lack of control over this action that is contemptible and should be shunned. The urge to do so and giving in to that urge are two different things. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode where George and Jerry are at a network boss's home and George gets caught looking down his 15 year old daughter's top. Jerry is trying to explain this to Elaine later, and says something to the effect that cleavage draws the male eye like a magnet, that nothing matters, including age, in the presence of cleavage. On the other hand, you don't stare. You notice it like looking at the sun. You glance and then quickly look away. Too dangerous to stare. That's right, you simply excersize a little self-control. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 So should a person ask for government issued photo ID every time before having sex with someone? My point is that if someone makes the claim that they are 18 or older, and that based on their appearance that is not an obviously untruthful claim to an average observer, then believing them should not be a criminal act. Tell that to a Judge and see what the response is. My speedometer broke your Honour , I truly believe I was only doing 100 KPH . Neither one will work Quote
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 I don't understand what an 18 year old woman could offer besides sex. They don't have much life experience at 18 so I don't see what an older established adult could want with someone so young. Sure they could be nice to look at I guess but what else can they offer? Huh? Isnt that enough? You want them to talk and be smart ? Quote
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Only if you equate teenage girls to six year old boys, and we don't let the latter drive cars - or consent to sex with adults. I also don't think 6 year old boys can pass for 18. The interest in young boys, in other words, is completely unnatural. The interest in teenage girls is not. Actually, NAMBLA men are interested in post-pubescent boys, not children. The following quotes are all from their site. Link A man may be subjected to any or all of these things for so much as touching the leg of a teenaged boy, even if it was in response to the boy’s own request. The boy’s intentions, actions, and experience of the event are not considered at all in determining the man’s fate. This system needlessly destroys the lives of thousands of men and boys each year. Sounds like your OP where you sympathise with the harsh criminal sentences. The study of cultures different from one's own can give insights into different ways of viewing the world and different ways of organizing society. Just as man/boy love has been the primary form of homoeroticism throughout most of Western history, it has also been an important cultural institution in many different places around the world. From the pederasty of the ancient Mediterranean world to the "contemplation of the unbearded" practiced in Sufi Islam, to the Chinese "passion of the cut sleeve" (named after the story of emperor Ai, who reputedly cut off his sleeve rather than disturb the sleep of his beloved), to the insemination rituals of Melanesia, to the two-spirit traditions of North America, man/boy love has been socially accepted in many forms. Like you, they believe that in a historical context, their actions and desires are 'normal'. A new study bolsters the long-standing claim of NAMBLA activists that consensual sex between men and boys doesn't cause psychological damage. The "meta-analysis," which combines the results of 59 different studies, was published in the preeminent Journal of the American Psychological Association this summer. Like you, they believe there is nothing psychologically wrong with it. The antidote to this poisoning of our consciousness is to seek out first-hand accounts of man/boy love as it is experienced by those who know it personally, as a boy, a man or both. First-hand accounts can provide information about social realities that the mainstream media cannot and will not provide. And of course... your "but where is the crime if there's consent!?!" Edited March 9, 2011 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
WIP Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 While it may be 'normal' to be attracted to teenagers, acting on it is a different issue. No, it's not the same thing as pedophilia (it's called hebephilia) but it is not considered 'normal' in the psychological communities. Yes, it's true that many teenagers are sexually active and they have sex with each other, but as in the case of the example you provided, sex with an adult usually entails something more than just desire. Either the adult is emotionally manipulating the teenager, or they are providing material goods to them. The men justify their actions by saying the act is consensual, but it's not. At sixteen we don't allow children to vote or drink because their mental capacity is not fully formed. They are half-child, half-adult. BTW, I'm not sure if you noticed or not, but I have constantly referred to teenagers without assigning gender. That's because many hebephiles are attracted to young boys. Whatever gender their preference, they seek teenagers from broken homes, usually working single-moms who are under-privileged. They groom the teenager for a long time by providing things for them that the mother can't afford. Often times they are the first adult male role model that has been in the teenager's life and they provide the affection that the child has longed for. My point is that they 'prey' on their victims in the exact same manner a rapist looks at body language and lifestyle of their victims. IOW, there IS a profile that these men fit and it does often have to do with power dynamics - whether they manipulate the children to give them money. And just like the pedophile, they always say it was consensual when a teenager lacks the ability to consent no matter how old they may LOOK. Just because it has gone on for millenia doesn't make it 'right'. Forced rape has also gone on for millenia, it's still not right. What you're saying is the heterosexual equivalent of the mission statement of NAMBLA. Lots of good points! This is a power-based relationship even when the girls are 18 and legal, it still not be something that should be encouraged. Unfortunately, in a stagnant economy with rapidly growing gaps in income we can expect a lot more young women looking for sugar daddies, and rewarding these Berlusconi-wannabees! And as you pointed out, desires don't in and of themselves deserve rewards. We can't maintain any sort of civil society if everyone is allowed to follow their urges....provided they have the money to do so of course. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Scotty Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 Actually, NAMBLA men are interested in post-pubescent boys, not children. The following quotes are all from their site. Link I'm not going to peruse the NAMBLA site, but I do recall their famous motto "Sex by Eight or its too Late", and that doesn't sound like anything one would consider in any way natural. Sounds like your OP where you sympathise with the harsh criminal sentences. I sympathise with harsh criminal sentences for doing what is natural and not knowing it was illegal, ie, the age of the young lady involved. Your attitude is, not surprisingly,unsympathetic. There is a certain philosophy of feminism which regards all male sexuality as inherently illegitimate and dangerous to females. Like you, they believe that in a historical context, their actions and desires are 'normal'. Psychiatrists would disagree with them - and with you. as I've already pointed out, there is absolutely nothing abnormal about male interest in attractive young women - as much as certain feminists might want to claim otherwise. Like you, they believe there is nothing psychologically wrong with it. I'm interested in the numerous psychiatric cites you'll no-doubt provide which state adult male interest in teenage girls is unnatural. Let me ask you this question. Are you of the school of feminist thought which says all sex between males and females constitutes rape? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
BC_chick Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Scotty, I recall things differently about NAMBLA - I remember when a few members were caught with pre-pubescent boys the association distanced themselves from them. In any case, the only reason I keep referring to NAMBLA is to show that if you switch teenage "girl" with "boy", everything changes. But the argument is the same.... "they consented!" And no, I do not think sex between men and women is always rape. I do think when the power dynamics are unequal, there is a level of exploitation where consent becomes irrelevant. There was a story of a judge giving cartons of cigarettes to aboriginal girls to have sex with him. Is that okay since they were willing or was he exploiting the young girls? Why didn't he offer cigarattes to girls from affluent families? Oh, and if it's any consolation, women can exploit others too. Edited March 9, 2011 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Shady Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Peter Townshend... Isn't he a pedophile? Quote
BubberMiley Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Isn't he a pedophile? Nope, but he's a conservative. Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
bloodyminded Posted March 13, 2011 Report Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) But if sexual interest in attractive young women, even if they are under 18, is instinctive and genetic, why should we feel contempt and shun someone who feels that interest? We're not suggesting they should act upon it, for that would in most circumstances be considered morally deficient. However, the sexual interest itself is not something men have any control over. Eyeball wasn't talking about sexual interest, or noticing young female bodies. He was referirng to open leering, of the type that more polite and ethical men--like ourselvers, for example--have abandoned. Of course you can look. But don't leer and gawk, and follow the girls around to get one last look for the mental databse. It's rude and creepy. You yourself gave the "Seinfeld" example: just so. Edited March 13, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted March 13, 2011 Report Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Let me ask you this question. Are you of the school of feminist thought which says all sex between males and females constitutes rape? I don't believe such a preposterous view constitutes a genuine "school of feminist thought." I'm aware that a feminist or two made the claim--decades ago, I believe--and it has become infamous. But feminists do not hold to this view generally. It's essentially a reductio ad absurdum, and I doubt more than a handful of radicals (whom no one listens to anyway) would seriously hold such a proposition. Unless the feminists I've slept with were indulging in rape fantasies or something. Edited March 13, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
GostHacked Posted March 13, 2011 Report Posted March 13, 2011 If the girl is hot, I am gonna look. No one gives two thoughts about all the older ladies drooling over someone like Beiber. Quote
dre Posted March 13, 2011 Report Posted March 13, 2011 So should a person ask for government issued photo ID every time before having sex with someone? My point is that if someone makes the claim that they are 18 or older, and that based on their appearance that is not an obviously untruthful claim to an average observer, then believing them should not be a criminal act. I guess it depends on how careful you want to be in life. A statutory rape charge is probably quite a hassle... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
cybercoma Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 I guess it depends on how careful you want to be in life. A statutory rape charge is probably quite a hassle... Statutory rape is 16 and under, 18 if you're a gay man or a person in a position of authority. Quote
wyly Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 If the girl is hot, I am gonna look. No one gives two thoughts about all the older ladies drooling over someone like Beiber. I knew two teenage boys who were being "abused" by their female high school teacher, from what I could tell by the stories they weren't too damaged from the experience ...and the reverse as well, a 14 yr old girl who eventually married her teacher when she was of legal age...it's a tricky issue to decide when abuse is consensual and when it's not... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 I guess it depends on how careful you want to be in life. A statutory rape charge is probably quite a hassle...I personally know from my younger days of a number of instances where underage girls with fake ID were cruising the bars(as young as 13), in those circumstance how is a man supposed to know the girl is underage? the bar has asked for ID and it was accepted...sometimes you can tell immediately they're underage when talking to them and other times you can't, physical and mental maturity differs from one person to the next... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Oleg Bach Posted March 14, 2011 Report Posted March 14, 2011 Vacarious little worms who are not mature enough to deal with a full grown woman seem facinated by this shit. Quote
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