Should Canada Direct more Efforts into Recruiting European Immigrants

[Saipan]

When I pointed out that the statistics used by Scotty ranks immigrants from certain parts of Africa higher than those from certain parts of Europe, you could not come with anything better......

And I am still waiting for concrete evidence that this is happening or likely to happen, instead than statistics on crime in FOREIGN countries.

Crime statistics from Canada. The almost daily shooting in Toronto. Event like say Air India is in proportion same as 9/11 WTC.

Listen to the truth about gangs in cities.

[CANADIEN]

Yes, now how do we do that? Given our absolute inability to do so has now extended for decades. Just how do you propose to establish a system which can adequately screen 300,000 people, most of whom are from third world countries were bribery and corruption are endemic, and where educational systems are nowhere near the same as ours?

You set standards, including on how to actually measure skills. Which is different from assuming all university degrees are created equals, and from just assuming that somebody from Europe will be better qualified than any candidate from elsewhere in the world.

As an example, we give points for a university education. Sounds pretty fair. Except that a university education in Pakistan or Indonesia or Vietnam is nowhere near as good as a university education from France or the UK or Germany. So how do we differentiate?

There is no doubt that not all unversities are created equal. This is why a strict and uniform process to evaluate credentials and skills is needed. A blanket "we will only allow immigrants from Europe" policy actually fails to acknowledge that tehre is more to skills than formal education, or even situations like immigrants from the rest of the World trained in western univerisities. Western universities are in most cases more than likely to rank higher than most olther universities, so there is no logical need for a system that just gives blanket preference to candidates from certain parts of the world.

[CANADIEN]

Crime statistics from Canada. The almost daily shooting in Toronto. Event like say Air India is in proportion same as 9/11 WTC.

Listen to the truth about gangs in cities.

I know the facts about crime in the city. You still have not demonstrated like we are turning into an African countries when it comes to education level, hunger, AIDS, literacy level, to name only these. Don't worry, I don't expect you to come even close to these ones, because on those grounds you cannot prove your case.

I still expect your opinion on Scotty's proposal though.

[Saipan]

You set standards, including on how to actually measure skills. Which is different from assuming all university degrees are created equals

They are not. For example Thai std. in nursing are higher than here. But that is not the point.

[Scotty]

The thing about successful businesses, is they generally know what they need. They need more workers that are willing to do jobs for wages that they can afford. I'm now in a position to see that. I have this feeling that you aren't.

Oh yes, indeed. You're quite right about the needs of business for wanting workers at the lowest possible wages. I don't think there's any doubt there. You do know business also wants to do away with unions, with minimum wages, minimal benefits, minimum paid vacations etc. I suppose you're also in favour of all those?

[Smallc]

Oh yes, indeed. You're quite right about the needs of business for wanting workers at the lowest possible wages.

That's not what I said. Most businesses aren't after that (some are). I'm talking about realistic wages. Sometimes, native born Canadians aren't willing ti work for that.

[Scotty]

Actually, the answer is relatively simple: let the market decide. Let the main path of immigration be job offers from Canadian employers, rather than a points system. It doesn't matter what education someone has, what matters is whether they can get a job in Canada. And the only way to know for sure if they can get a job is if there is an employer giving them a job offer. The potential immigrant must continue to hold the job with that employer for the period of their permanent residency (with appropriate processes in place for exceptions as needed) until they can apply for citizenship and remain unconditionally. If the offer of employment was not genuine, then the immigrant must return home and the employer must pay a fine.

Nice idea. Never happen. We don't even make people return home when we prove marital fraud. Even when there's no question they simply lied, pretended to love someone, married them, and then walked away the instant they were in Canada we let them stay and become citizens.

[CANADIEN]

They are not. For example Thai std. in nursing are higher than here. But that is not the point.

And I thought the whole of the thread was to attract the best candidates. it is not?

[CANADIEN]

Actually, the answer is relatively simple: let the market decide. Let the main path of immigration be job offers from Canadian employers, rather than a points system. It doesn't matter what education someone has, what matters is whether they can get a job in Canada. And the only way to know for sure if they can get a job is if there is an employer giving them a job offer. The potential immigrant must continue to hold the job with that employer for the period of their permanent residency (with appropriate processes in place for exceptions as needed) until they can apply for citizenship and remain unconditionally. If the offer of employment was not genuine, then the immigrant must return home and the employer must pay a fine.

Sounds faire to me, with a few safeguards (both for us and the immigrants). such as:

- employers would have to demonstrate that there is no equally qualified candidate for the job in Canada

- conditions for employment would be clear, conform to the law, and binding to both parties

- clear avenues for immigrants to protect themsevles from exploitation would be in place

- in certain professional fields (such as medecine and engineering, for example), would be immigrants would need to prove they meet Canadian standards

[Scotty]

You set standards, including on how to actually measure skills. Which is different from assuming all university degrees are created equals, and from just assuming that somebody from Europe will be better qualified than any candidate from elsewhere in the world.

Again, nice idea, but as the Fraser Report pointed out, we have no way of properly screening and processing 250,000+ immigrants each year. Which is why we need something more broadly based.

Unless, of course, cut immigration to 100,000 per year as they recommend.

[Scotty]

Sounds faire to me, with a few safeguards (both for us and the immigrants). such as:

- employers would have to demonstrate that there is no equally qualified candidate for the job in Canada

They do this now. They advertise a job at half or a third the going rate, then run with crocodile tears to the government saying they can't find any employees and need to bring them in from India or wherever.

The number of temporary workers has also skyrocketed of late, as employers bring in hundreds of thousands of cheap workers to work in the hotel and restaurant industry, among others.

[CANADIEN]

Again, nice idea, but as the Fraser Report pointed out, we have no way of properly screening and processing 250,000+ immigrants each year. Which is why we need something more broadly based.

Unless, of course, cut immigration to 100,000 per year as they recommend.

That's the Fraser Institute's claim. Doesn't make it true. There is no doubt that it is more complicated to screen idinvidual candidates than to just say "we'll take people from this part of the World only, and other people need not apply". You want the best? You make sure you get the best.

[Bonam]

Sounds faire to me, with a few safeguards (both for us and the immigrants). such as:

- employers would have to demonstrate that there is no equally qualified candidate for the job in Canada

- conditions for employment would be clear, conform to the law, and binding to both parties

- clear avenues for immigrants to protect themsevles from exploitation would be in place

- in certain professional fields (such as medecine and engineering, for example), would be immigrants would need to prove they meet Canadian standards

Of course. We already have a model of such a system in place: this is precisely how the main path for legal immigration into the US works.

[CANADIEN]

They do this now. They advertise a job at half or a third the going rate, then run with crocodile tears to the government saying they can't find any employees and need to bring them in from India or wherever.

The number of temporary workers has also skyrocketed of late, as employers bring in hundreds of thousands of cheap workers to work in the hotel and restaurant industry, among others.

Which is why employment conditions must be clear and conform to the law. The energy spent arguing that only immigrants from certain places come here would be better spent setting up clear and fair standards for employment and enforcing them.

[Saipan]

And I thought the whole of the thread was to attract the best candidates. it is not?

That would be nice. But it's still about quotas.

[Scotty]

Hey hey, that's Mr. I read every study you're talking about. Never mind the fact that government and business both agree that we need immigrants (and more of the economic kind). They're all wrong, because the Fraser Institute says so.

Don't get all resentful just because I actually read. You could too, if you weren't being intellectually lazy.

They're not all wrong because the Fraser Institute says so. They're wrong because they're wrong. And you won't find any supporting economic or demographic evidence from anyone to show otherwise.

Not that you'd bother to read it anyway.

[Scotty]

That's the Fraser Institute's claim. Doesn't make it true. There is no doubt that it is more complicated to screen idinvidual candidates than to just say "we'll take people from this part of the World only, and other people need not apply". You want the best? You make sure you get the best.

So why haven't we been doing that for the last thirty years? And I'll point out again that at no time has the government ever justified the need for any particular number of immigrants based on either economic or demographic data. At least, not that it has ever been willing to show anyone.

[Smallc]

Don't get all resentful just because I actually read. You could too, if you weren't being intellectually lazy.

If you'll notice, I rarely post here anymore. I don't have the time, and I don't really care

[Jack Weber]

That's not what I said. Most businesses aren't after that (some are). I'm talking about realistic wages. Sometimes, native born Canadians aren't willing ti work for that.

Define "realistic" wages???

Are you saying that it's business that should decide what is a "fair" wage?

Or the standard of living that the mployees of that business are living under???

Is it business that shoud decide the minimum occupational health and safety laws??

Or should it be a more collaborative effort?

[CANADIEN]

That would be nice. But it's still about quotas.

Then I'll ask again. Scotty is proposing what is in fact a quota - giving preference in imnmigration to people from certain areas of the World - is he right or wrong?

[blueblood]

The thing about successful businesses, is they generally know what they need. They need more workers that are willing to do jobs for wages that they can afford. I'm now in a position to see that. I have this feeling that you aren't.

Praise jesus!! He's found the light!!

[CANADIEN]

So why haven't we been doing that for the last thirty years?

Fair question. That being said, logic dictates that failure by government to do thing the way they should be done is not a reason for doing things in a way that would be no better than what has been done.

[Smallc]

Or should it be a more collaborative effort?

This. I'm just saying that there are some jobs that people don't want to do, and there are businesses that can't afford to pay more for those jobs, because they aren't high profit.

[Jack Weber]

This. I'm just saying that there are some jobs that people don't want to do, and there are businesses that can't afford to pay more for those jobs, because they aren't high profit.

Now now...

You've pulled a 'Professor Move" here...

This is selectively quoting...

I asked a few more pertinent questions of you...

[Smallc]

Now now...

You've pulled a 'Professor Move" here...

No, that's what I agreed with. I don't think that either business of labour should have all of the say. They have to work together (under regulation) to make the market work properly. Sometimes, for some jobs, that means low wages (though I'm definitely in favour of a minimum wage). For other jobs, wages can and could be higher.