Police state part 2

myata · February 26, 2011

If anybody' curious to see what police state looks like, see The Fifths Estate tonight on CBC Television (9 pm) No, its not Algeria, much closer to home. But looks every bit like it.

Well by all signs we're well on the way there. Isn't it ironic that while some people are finding freedom, others are abandoning - through their own apathy? No, token elections won't make a difference. To each,their own. Their fair due.

Evening Star · February 26, 2011

Stream online:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/youshouldhavestayedathome/

GostHacked · February 26, 2011

Any mention of the special powers the police said they were granted but in the end never granted in the video? No mention in the article that was posted. This seems to be a huge point many have missed or were not aware of. I've mentioned that several times in the threads related to the G-20 summit. Even when I mention it to friends, I get the 'so what, big deal, who cares' look.

People were arrested under special powers that were never granted to the police in the first place, and very few seem to understand the implications of this. It's not a minor deal at all, and people should stop treating it like a minor deal.

bjre · February 26, 2011

If anybody' curious to see what police state looks like, see The Fifths Estate tonight on CBC Television (9 pm) No, its not Algeria, much closer to home. But looks every bit like it.

Well by all signs we're well on the way there. Isn't it ironic that while some people are finding freedom, others are abandoning - through their own apathy? No, token elections won't make a difference. To each,their own. Their fair due.

That clearly shows that western "freedom" is a lie that politicians fool you.

However, I don't care that protest things very much.

The worst is, when people stay at home, did not make any trouble with others, their family can be destroyed by such police state that if you have an idea on how to bring up your kids that some evil dictator in CAS tell you that is different with their idea.

And many other cases your home, property be destroyed by the system when you did no harm to anyone else.

And many other cases you have to pay lawyer cost when you did no harm to anyone else when a evil police state agent tells you that you convicted an offense that you never heard before.

In this country, too many people were bullied by the state who never did any harm to anyone else.

Edited February 26, 2011 by bjre

Saipan · February 26, 2011

It happen at APEC.

While Chretien just pud pepper on his plade.

But there are FAR more indications of police state mentality among some ministers and even University professors.

"I came to Ottawa in November with the firm belief that the only people in

this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers"

- - - Alan Rock, "Taking Aim on Guns" Maclean's, April 25, 1994

Shwa · February 26, 2011

If anybody' curious to see what police state looks like, see The Fifths Estate tonight on CBC Television (9 pm) No, its not Algeria, much closer to home. But looks every bit like it.

Well by all signs we're well on the way there. Isn't it ironic that while some people are finding freedom, others are abandoning - through their own apathy? No, token elections won't make a difference. To each,their own. Their fair due.

I'm not sure what you mean by "part 2" but in perspective, the G20 controversy appears to be a much smaller issue than the October Crisis and the use of the War Measures Act in 1970. At least there is a measure of transparency for the Canadians to see the problems with the way the G20 was - and is being - handled. I am still not confident that everything that went on with the October Crisis is as out in the open.

So if we were "on the way there" then it has been happening for quite some time now...

Scotty · February 26, 2011

There were and remain a number of troubling issues with the performance - or lack - of the police during the G20. But all can be traced to basic competence - or lack.

It is evident to me, as a conservative supporter of police, that the police efforts in Toronto were poorly organized, and that the police themselves were poorly disciplined and poorly supervised. Their operations were clearly set in stone, so much so that even as a small band of protesters were smashing windows as they walked along the street, large groups of police were actually moving away from them, having been ordered to ignore them and follow the main body of the protesters instead. In the first instance, dozens of riot equipped police simply watched from up the block as people smashed windows, then the police turned and walked away.

It seems to me that the police felt publicly humiliated after scenes of window smashing and those burning police cars were flashed around the country, and an institutional mindset came down which demanded revenge. From that point on, the city was divided into two groups There were the police, and then there were the enemy. Anyone on the street other than police wound up in that second category, and was subject to unprovoked attack and arrest without warning or provocation.

I'm especially troubled by the violence and the willingness to inflict it by so many police, and that the other police looking on accepted it so calmly. Police, on numerous occasions, broke the law, and committed a variety of offenses, including assault, with what I think can best be described as a collective sense of impunity. It was as if the police felt they were now above the law, and had free reign to do anything they wanted to anyone they wanted for any reason they wanted. Even those police who didn't outright attack people seemed to look on with a shrug as their colleagues did. And if there were any supervisors present who cared about that they didn't make their presence or unhappiness known. The fact so many police removed all identification is equally troubling, indicating that they planned to break the law and didn't want anyone identifying them.

For those tempted to defend the police I want to be clear on this point. The police, on numerous occasions, attacked people without provocation or cause, and arrested people without warning or any evidence or suspicion they had done anything illegal, then held them in primitive conditions in cages without even the most basic of courtesies. Police like to think of themselves as professionals. We pay them a very high salary; more than we pay teachers, for example, or numerous other highly skilled, highly educated groups. What was evident in the behaviour of the police is that this is not a professional group, as such. These are a bunch of young men high on testosterone who have gone through a twelve week course at the Ontario Police College.

Want to be a hairstylist? The college course for that is 45 weeks. Horticulture - those people who do gardens and such - is a 2 year course. The law clerk program is also 2 years. Massage Therapy is 3 years. Hell, even Kitchen and Bathroom Design is a full year, 52 weeks.

Police training again - 12 weeks. You don't become a professional in 12 weeks. And I'm troubled by the willingness of the police in Toronto to act like a gang of thugs. Theirs was not the behaviour of well-trained, competent professionals. It was the behaviour of a mob.

There's long been an assumption on the part of many that a police state in Canada couldn't happen because even if the politicians gave such orders, the police wouldn't carry them out. I think we have to have a lot of doubt now, about what the police would and wouldn't do. Because in Toronto, none of the police appeared to have any difficulty with violating the law and people's civil rights for very, very little cause. Imagine if these 'professionals' are presented with a sense of dramatic danger to the state and told they must protect it. What might they be willing to do then?

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

What kills me is that they use OUR MONEY to arm themselves to the gills and take away our rights. Absolutely abhorrent.

myata · February 26, 2011

I'm not sure what you mean by "part 2" but in perspective, the G20 controversy appears to be a much smaller issue than the October Crisis and the use of the War Measures Act in 1970. At least there is a measure of transparency for the Canadians to see the problems with the way the G20 was - and is being - handled. I am still not confident that everything that went on with the October Crisis is as out in the open.

So if we were "on the way there" then it has been happening for quite some time now...

Part 2 is because there was already a thread on this topic awhile back. And absolutely, it's been going and is going on for awhile now. Keeping freedom is an ongoing work if not struggle, and losing it is a slippery slope.. one bit at a time.

I think we should stop using phrases like "unCanadian" and for once be honest with ourselves in admitting that it's exactly in Canada of 21 century that the government can summarily cancel peaceful democratic dissent at wish and the police can use excessive violent force without sufficient or any justification to suppress it. Our complacency, disenterest and apathy has brought us here and unless we wake up, the further path can lead in only one direction - down. Neither opposition performance artists who showed no interest in raising the issue, nor politically dormant civil society can assure people's democratic rights and enforce efficient checks of the government's use of violent force.

And quite rightfully so. Far from the idyllic picture of a bored "citizen" awaiting brilliant democratic act - absolute best possible in the world, from their representatives half way between a bottle of beer and remote control - our government, opposition and civil society are just a mirror image of ourselves and cannot be anything else. So our boredom, apathy and ignorance of democratic rights can only translate into more examples of more severe abuses thereof.

Where do we start? One idea could be, in the primary school, cutting down on all that singing, replacing it with studies of past dictatorships and tyrannies where rights of citizens were abused, in depth investigation of the same citizens' democratic rights and duty of the government to protect them and duty of a citizen to defend them when the need arises.

Edited February 26, 2011 by myata

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

I'm disappointed that Ottawa has remained mostly silent about this. Initially I want to blame Stephen Harper for spending our money on this trainwreck, but then I don't see Ignatieff, Layton or Duceppe laying into this issue. Ignatieff and Layton for obvious reasons, Duceppe because many of the people unlawfully detained and centered out were from Quebec. They suffered derogatory and abusive discrimination based on their Quebec nationality. Quebec aside, though, it's a shame more is not being done about this in Ottawa.

GostHacked · February 26, 2011

I watched the whole video, and as I suspected not a single mention about the powers that were said to have been granted to the police, never were. The W5 story failed to report that, which would have made that documentary much much more powerful.

Why was not that important thing never mentioned?

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

I watched the whole video, and as I suspected not a single mention about the powers that were said to have been granted to the police, never were. The W5 story failed to report that, which would have made that documentary much much more powerful.

Why was not that important thing never mentioned?

It was not focused upon and it should have been. However, the girl from Montreal said that one the police told her, "You have no rights we are under the martial law." The reporter then said that martial law was not authorized. It was brief and probably should have been hashed out further.

This entire situation makes me think of the Stanford Prison Experiment. If you are unaware of this research into the psychological effects of the prisoner-guard relationship, it's well worth taking a few minutes to read the Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Scotty · February 26, 2011

I'm disappointed that Ottawa has remained mostly silent about this. Initially I want to blame Stephen Harper for spending our money on this trainwreck, but then I don't see Ignatieff, Layton or Duceppe laying into this issue. Ignatieff and Layton for obvious reasons, Duceppe because many of the people unlawfully detained and centered out were from Quebec. They suffered derogatory and abusive discrimination based on their Quebec nationality. Quebec aside, though, it's a shame more is not being done about this in Ottawa.

It is, unfortunately, a provincial matter. And the provincial government in this case is notorious for its cowardice and its refusal to involve itself in anything controversial. It especially doesn't want to involve itself in anything where it might have to admit it screwed up - as in this nonsensical law the police were allegedly supposed to have.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Scotty

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

It is, unfortunately, a provincial matter. And the provincial government in this case is notorious for its cowardice and its refusal to involve itself in anything controversial. It especially doesn't want to involve itself in anything where it might have to admit it screwed up - as in this nonsensical law the police were allegedly supposed to have.

The Province of Ontario didn't spend over $1,000,000,000 of taxpayers' money on it. Although they are just as responsible for the behaviour of the OPP and the supposed "law" that was passed, and the City of Toronto is responsible for the behaviour of their police force.

Edited February 26, 2011 by cybercoma

Smallc · February 26, 2011

The Province of Ontario didn't spend over $1,000,000,000 of taxpayers' money on it.

The money spent has nothing to do with the behaviour of the police.

Scotty · February 26, 2011

The Province of Ontario didn't spend over $1,000,000,000 of taxpayers' money on it. Although they are just as responsible for the behaviour of the OPP and the supposed "law" that was passed, and the City of Toronto is responsible for the behaviour of their police force.

The concerns I have here are with regard to the violation of human and constitutional rights, not the cost, and that would be the provincial government - which oversees policing in the province, and which bears some responsibility for not clarifying that so-called new law.

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

The money spent has nothing to do with the behaviour of the police.

Sure it does. They weren't equipped with donations. The money spent on their Paramilitary-esque equipment shows systemic support for the sick ideology that they felt the need to enforce that week.

Smallc · February 26, 2011

Sure it does. They weren't equipped with donations. The money spent on their Paramilitary-esque equipment shows systemic support for the sick ideology that they felt the need to enforce that week.

:rolleyes: Paranoid much? It does nothing of the sort. The security experts told them what the needed for a medium threat level, and they bought it. Anything else is purely speculation on that front.

cybercoma · February 26, 2011

Odd. They didn't spend that much on security at any other G20 conference.

Smallc · February 26, 2011

Odd. They didn't spend that much on security at any other G20 conference.

Yes they did, as has been explained many times. There are different accounting rules that were used here, including taking into consideration all man hours and equipment used. You can't possibly believe that they only spent $18M for security in the middle of London or Pittsburg. It would require them to have a virtual zero security presence in the middle of very large cities.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Smallc

eyeball · February 26, 2011

Any mention of the special powers the police said they were granted but in the end never granted in the video? No mention in the article that was posted. This seems to be a huge point many have missed or were not aware of. I've mentioned that several times in the threads related to the G-20 summit. Even when I mention it to friends, I get the 'so what, big deal, who cares' look.

People were arrested under special powers that were never granted to the police in the first place, and very few seem to understand the implications of this. It's not a minor deal at all, and people should stop treating it like a minor deal.

People are similarly blasé about the way the government treats Parliament not to mention our constitutional rights.

I get the sense the 'so what' stare is often attended by the unspoken thought 'good'.

betsy · February 26, 2011

Police training again - 12 weeks. You don't become a professional in 12 weeks.

12 weeks? And that's the whole training? Not just physical training?

Smallc · February 26, 2011

12 weeks? And that's the whole training?

No, that's an underestimate of the training. Police training is muh more than the initial phase.

Saipan · February 26, 2011

People are similarly blasé about the way the government treats Parliament not to mention our constitutional rights.

I get the sense the 'so what' stare is often attended by the unspoken thought 'good'.

I have to agree.

Thanks to Trudeau we don't even have constitutional right to our property.