Jack Weber Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Except for support for terrorists far worse than current official enemies,and the active support and defense of dictators, and the overthrowing of elected democratic governments. (Reagan and Kennedy were, to my knowledge, far worse than Truman in this regard.) Why do you insist upon reciting platitudes, rather than responding concretely? I totally agree. It's extremely impressive. Impressive...But very early... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Impressive...But very early... At heart, I'm an optimist, and a democrat.I'm curious to see what happens in Iran - a society that is Western, Eastern and Islamic. Its Islamic side has been far too obvious for the past 30 years. I'm patient to see the other sides of Iran. Quote
eyeball Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I'm curious to see what happens in Iran - a society that is Western, Eastern and Islamic. Its Islamic side has been far too obvious for the past 30 years. I'm patient to see the other sides of Iran. Too bad when it showed the one most like our's back in 1953 the west slapped it down. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
GostHacked Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Clueless, Idiot, Don't-Know-What. GostHacked, these are major changes in the Middle East. (And imagine, they have nothing to do with the West, or the American Progressive/Left's agenda.) It's not a left or right thing. It's the continuing forgein policy of countries like Britain, Canada and the US, and many European countries and how these countries deal with the countries you currently see in turmoil. You don't cut off a nations internet and communications abilities without complict help from the west who developed this technology. Our governments do have their hands in this. You can say I am wrong all you want, but this is just very plain to see and understand. I mean was Tunisa just a catalyst? Here's my take: Arab women want to touch hands/kiss/sleep with Arab guys. The best way to do it is to have a revolution. That's a very narrow view to hold. Take the blinders off. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Reagan, Kennedy and Truman strongly defended the principle of individual liberty. ----- As Westerners, we should simply stand aside with wonder at what ordinary people in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya have done. We should welcome them into the circle of civilized peoples. I agree we should be stepping aside and letting them figure it all out for themselves. But that is not going to happen. Lybia will get sanctions, and that can be expected to spread to other countries if the puppet regimes don't step down when called on. Ben- Ali left only after the west said .. get out ... same with Mubarak. Quadaffi said no, and that is why it went to the UN. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Give it a rest, SB. When a neighbour leaves her violent husband, you're the wife who berates for lending him a lawn mower. I have no idea what you're saying here. But ff that's all you have to offer, then I believe this thread is finished. There is little doubt actually, your assertions have been utterly annihilated, by the truth. The rest is simply trollish opinions and posturing for attention. Therefore I say good day to you, sir Quote
bloodyminded Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) I have no idea what you're saying here. But ff that's all you have to offer, then I believe this thread is finished. There is little doubt actually, your assertions have been utterly annihilated, by the truth. The rest is simply trollish opinions and posturing for attention. Therefore I say good day to you, sir Hey, at least he didn't say "The Left!," as is the usual formulation. Edited February 27, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
August1991 Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I have no idea what you're saying here. But ff that's all you have to offer, then I believe this thread is finished. There is little doubt actually, your assertions have been utterly annihilated, by the truth. The rest is simply trollish opinions and posturing for attention.Therefore I say good day to you, sir Utterly annihilated?You have trotted out the usual self-centred nonsense that the US/West are the centre of the universe and decide everything. It ain't so. Moreover, you have managed to treat Kennedy and Reagan as somehow equivalent. That would be news to anyone who knows anything about US politics. Iraq is not in any way stable. It is a catastrophe.I suppose that you would describe Soviet Russia as "stable". Iraq today ressembles Lebanon at the end of the 1980s. Iraq has the advantage of oil revenues.Too bad when it showed the one most like our's back in 1953 the west slapped it down.The anti-West Left always uses these examples: Battista, Iran 1953, Allende 1973, Vietnam. These events occurred in the middle of the Cold War. It is as if you blamed Churchill for sinking the French fleet in 1940.---- As to my lawnmower metaphor, I merely meant to say that when a woman finds the courage to leave a violent husband, neighbours should applaud her courage rather than point fingers at which of them said hello to the violent man. IOW, this is about the courage of ordinary people in the Middle East to overcome their fear of a tyrannical regime. It's not about what the US government did or didn't do. I happen to think that we are witnessing a step in a long run "American" trend: the primacy of the individual. Edited March 2, 2011 by August1991 Quote
BC_chick Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Utterly annihilated? As to my lawnmower metaphor, I merely meant to say that when a woman finds the courage to leave a violent husband, neighbours should applaud her courage rather than point fingers at which of them said hello to the violent man. IOW, this is about the courage of ordinary people in the Middle East to overcome their fear of a tyrannical regime. It's not about what the US government did or didn't do. Errr, no. Lending a lawn mower to an abusive neighbour does not provide the means for that neighbour to continue harming his family. OTOH, buying dirty oil and selling weapons to two-bit dictators, does provide them a means to stay in in power. And you bet I would be bitching at my husband if he was providing an abusive neighbour the means to continue harming his family. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
August1991 Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Posted March 2, 2011 And you bet I would be bitching at my husband if he was providing an abusive neighbour the means to continue harming his family.And that's why you're BC Chick and not BC Guy.It's not about you or your family, BC Chick. It's about another woman or many other people getting out of a bad situation. Quote
BC_chick Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 You're missing the point. If my family's money is providing a madman *the means* to abuse his family, it IS my business. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Rue Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) You're missing the point. If my family's money is providing a madman *the means* to abuse his family, it IS my business. Oh I get the point. The point is how easy it is for you to expect other people to act righteously. The problem is I have found the people quickest to tell others how wicked they are live the exact same way. Oh but I know. You are perfect. You don't drive. You don't purchase any products from anyone who is unethical. You've never eaten anything that came from needlessly subjecting animals to pain. You live a pristine life and now from your pedestal you look down at we unshaven, heathen and chastize us for our debauchery. This is why I prefer the Oleg Bach approach to life where we accept the fact that all human beings are whores and get over ourselves. Edited March 2, 2011 by Rue Quote
BC_chick Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 Wow Rue, woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Anyway, no, I don't claim to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But I do bike as much as possible, I do drive a Smart car, I do not buy anything from businesses I find unethical (that includes most big corporations) and I live my life as close to my beliefs as possible. And leaving my character aside, if you'd follow the thread, you'd notice that I was responding to August where he compared Sir Bandelot's post about the West keeping Gaddafi in power to a woman complaining that her husband lent a lawn-mower to an abusive neighbour once the abuser's wife decides to leave him. I said the analogy is ridiculous given that lending a lawnmower does not in any way facilitate the abuse that an abusive neighbour imposes on his wife. Whether or not the ends justify the means in supporting a bad regime is a subjective opinion. But when I see irrelevant analogies used to support one's position... I do call BS on it. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
blueblood Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 To note -> just watched AC 360 on CNN and Anderson has just tore a strip off of a spokesman for the gadhafi regime. If you can find the video online I recommend seeing it, tis gold! Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Jack Weber Posted March 3, 2011 Report Posted March 3, 2011 The spokesmans name is Musa Ibrahim... And Cooper just made him look like a complete fool...(I'm watching it now) Musa Ibrahim is the new "Baghdad Bob"!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) And leaving my character aside, if you'd follow the thread, you'd notice that I was responding to August where he compared Sir Bandelot's post about the West keeping Gaddafi in power to a woman complaining that her husband lent a lawn-mower to an abusive neighbour once the abuser's wife decides to leave him.I said the analogy is ridiculous given that lending a lawnmower does not in any way facilitate the abuse that an abusive neighbour imposes on his wife. Whether or not the ends justify the means in supporting a bad regime is a subjective opinion. But when I see irrelevant analogies used to support one's position... I do call BS on it. Presumably, anything that helps an abusive husband - whether lending a lawnmower or as Rue pointed out, simply buying gasoline - can be interpreted as helping a tyrant.My point was different, BC Chick. When a woman finds the courage to leave an abusive husband, I would not use the occasion to remind my partner of how he helped the tyrant. Instead, I would applaud the courageous woman. IOW, these events are not about America or the West. Ordinary people in the Middle East are deciding events. Link ---- Sorry for this metaphor/analogy overload. Edited March 5, 2011 by August1991 Quote
August1991 Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Posted March 5, 2011 Gaddafi may be a madfox, a flake (in Reagan's words), but he is obviously a survivor. He has survived longer than I believed or my OP suggested. I thought that he would try to run a way, then get caught. Given what Obama has said, now it seems a question of where Gaddafi will seek refuge. Idi Amin lived in Saudi Arabia for many years. Quote
bloodyminded Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I suppose that you would describe Soviet Russia as "stable". No. Iraq today ressembles Lebanon at the end of the 1980s. No, it doesn't. You've invented this notion, without bothering to look into the situation. Why? Only you can say. Iraq is a disaster. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
August1991 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 Iraq is a disaster.What do you mean Iraq is a disaster?No, it doesn't. You've invented this notion, without bothering to look into the situation. Why? Only you can say.Lebanon and Iraq are the only countries in the Middle East where governments now reflect best the true nature of the population. Lebanon and Iraq are also the only countries in the Middle East (along with Turkey) where ordinary individuals are most free to say what they think, and they're not afraid.In Lebanon and Iraq, the State tolerates/accepts other power centres. Quote
Jack Weber Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 What do you mean Iraq is a disaster? Lebanon and Iraq are the only countries in the Middle East where governments now reflect best the true nature of the population. Lebanon and Iraq are also the only countries in the Middle East (along with Turkey) where ordinary individuals are most free to say what they think, and they're not afraid. In Lebanon and Iraq, the State tolerates/accepts other power centres. What planet are you on??? Planet Rumsfeld??? Seriously.... Iraq has been divided on sectarian lines after a long period of time of ethnic cleansing.That's hardly my idea of freedom unles you think thousands dead along sectarian lines is "freedom"... Lebanon??? The meddling of Ba'Athists from Syria in the democratic political affairs of Lebanon so they can use it as a proxy for Danascus in it's Hezbollah proxy war with Israel is hardly the virtuous freedom you seem to erroneously proclaim... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 Iraq has been divided on sectarian lines... Every country in the Middle East (and elsewhere in Africa or Asia) is divided along sectarian, religious, ethnic lines.Heck, think of Canada to understand the problem. In Iraq and Lebanon (like Canada), these lines are now obvious. We and they have a democracy. In Canada, we manage to get along and we do this in a democracy. ... after a long period of time of ethnic cleansing.How do you define "ethnic cleansing"? Quote
Jack Weber Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Every country in the Middle East (and elsewhere in Africa or Asia) is divided along sectarian, religious, ethnic lines. Heck, think of Canada to understand the problem. In Iraq and Lebanon (like Canada), these lines are now obvious. We and they have a democracy. In Canada, we manage to get along and we do this in a democracy. How do you define "ethnic cleansing"? Surly,you're not equating debates about parliamentary procdure in the House of Commons in Ottawa to sectarian blood vengeance and violence in Iraq and Lebanon,are you?? Perhaps "faith based sectarian cleansing" is a better term... Basically,after the fall of Saddam (Please don't take this as a me taking up for a Ba'Athist/Fascist thug) we've had entire neighbourhoods in Baghdad (for example) go from a mix of Sunni and Shi'Ite muslims to completely seperate ones.In the intervening period,we had an orgy of killing to get that desired result... I'm not sure that was the desired effect of the "democratization" Mr.Bush was intending on,if he was at all... And since,up until 2 weeks ago,we had demonstrations in Baghdad about the nature of the "democracy" delivered...I'm not sure I would be extoling (sp) the virtues of that US led democracy you seem to think is working... How's the sky in Rumsfeld World,by the way? Edited March 9, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bloodyminded Posted March 13, 2011 Report Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) What do you mean Iraq is a disaster? I mean the sectarian divisions, the four million refugees, the flight of the professional classes, the rise in poverty, the rise in disease, the rise in child deaths and malnutrition, the decrease in potable water, electricity, and viable sewage treatments, the decrease in women's rights, the shattering of the social safety net in favour of foreign corporations and investors, the widespread use of torture by the government (sanctioned by the United States), and the increase in terrorism. Perhaps you have more rational measurements? A speech by a Bush administration official, perhaps, empty but for pretty platitudes? Lebanon and Iraq are the only countries in the Middle East where governments now reflect best the true nature of the population. Lebanon and Iraq are also the only countries in the Middle East (along with Turkey) where ordinary individuals are most free to say what they think, and they're not afraid. You have, literally, no clue at all what's going in Iraq, because you haven't bothered to find out. You're fabricating out of whole cloth, for ideological ends. At what point does wanton ignorance become outright dishonesty? An interesting question.... Edited March 13, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
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