GWiz Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 A CEO, a tea party demonstrator, and a union protester, sat down at a table in a local diner. On the table was a box full of a dozen cookies. The CEO immediately reached in with both hands and took out 11 cookies. Then, he turned to the tea party demonstrator beside him and whispered:"you better keep your eye on this union guy, or he'll try to take half of your cookie." EXCELLENT analogy! Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 "I own a commodity production business" What does this business produce? In what way is your interest related to the value of unions? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 I can see your frustration and I empathize. I believe this particular debate I have to argue on personal experience. On one side we have some people who argue on the labor side from personal experience. On the other there is myself who is a small business owner who gives the other and sometimes provocative position. It gives you the 360 degree view that you like. Why don't we, instead of arguing from personal experience compare the way the state and their employer treats the average citizen in the U.S. RTW states, like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas with how the state and employers treat the average citizen in one of those nations groaning under the weight of incompetent socialist government and corrupt union representation, like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, etc... Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 Just as I view unions are a race to the boTtom. So you think only the Right To Work legislation is keeping the proud working man of Mississippi from sinking down to the level of those poor, abused Germans workers? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 The benefits that public sector employees receive are so unimaginably large that Really? How large? I mean, in comparison to other large organizations and what the give their workers? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
CANADIEN Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 A CEO, a tea party demonstrator, and a union protester, sat down at a table in a local diner. On the table was a box full of a dozen cookies. The CEO immediately reached in with both hands and took out 11 cookies. Then, he turned to the tea party demonstrator beside him and whispered:"you better keep your eye on this union guy, or he'll try to take half of your cookie." You forgot about the part where the Tea Partyer gets to argue that he will get a full box of cookies if th CEO gets all the cookies, then blames the union guy for evrything. Quote
blueblood Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 So you think only the Right To Work legislation is keeping the proud working man of Mississippi from sinking down to the level of those poor, abused Germans workers? At least those southern workers have jobs whereas their northern counterparts priced themselves out of a job. As for comparing the usa to europe, many more people vote with their feet for the opportunity to become successful. Free to succeed and free to fail, tis the american way. The usa still has their aaa rating, europeans are losing theirs... I like how union supporters only like consitutional rights when it benefits them. Workers have just as much right to be free from a union as to join one. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
pinko Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 In what way is your interest related to the value of unions? Why do you ask? Quote
ToadBrother Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 At least those southern workers have jobs whereas their northern counterparts priced themselves out of a job. So did Southern Slaves. Quote
blueblood Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 So did Southern Slaves. The southern us seems to get economic reality, why can't the northern states? Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
pinko Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 The southern us seems to get economic reality, why can't the northern states? What reality is that? Quote
blueblood Posted March 5, 2011 Report Posted March 5, 2011 What reality is that? That if you are working for somebody, the party is over. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Scotty Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 At least those southern workers have jobs whereas their northern counterparts priced themselves out of a job Did they? The unemployment rate in New York is lower than that of Mississippi. Florida is up around 12%. Please examine the numbers and show me the correlation between RTW states and unemployment. I don't seem to see one. Unemployment by state As for comparing the usa to europe, many more people vote with their feet for the opportunity to become successful. Free to succeed and free to fail, tis the american way. The usa still has their aaa rating, europeans are losing theirs... Germany seems to be doing quite a bit better than the US economically, with less debt, and yet their working people appear to enjoy unheard of benefits as compared to their sweatshop employed American allies. Why is that? Germany's deficit is 3.3% of GDP while American's is over 10% of GDP I like how union supporters only like consitutional rights when it benefits them. Workers have just as much right to be free from a union as to join one. Free to be poor and beaten down, you mean? Yes, so many people want that freedom. And I don't mind them having it but the problem is they insist everyone else share that 'freedom' with them. Which is how you get a bunch of poor, beaten down people looking resentfully at public service workers and saying "Hey! They have vacations! They get sick leave! They get more than minimum wage! That's not right! They should get treated like crap like I am!" Sorry. No sympathies for that viewpoint. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 That if you are working for somebody, the party is over. Other than Charley Sheen, most of us work for someone. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Shady Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 LOL! Rachel Maddow has already been called out by PolitiFact for blatantly lying twice over the last week and a half. This is what it's all about. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 I have no problem with people wanting to be paid a fair wage, of coarse people should be paid enough to live on and then some. These people in the union are paid much more than the average person and their benefits and pension are amazing. However these people are protesting like they are making below min. wage and are being forced to work 100 hours a week at the end of a whip. It's just ludicrous. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Shady Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 EXCELLENT analogy! Not really. Because public sector workers get paid by other people's money. And their answer to every budget shortfall, has been to ask for more of other people's money. This anaology makes absolutely no sense. Unless the public workers were taking 2 cookies for every one they put in, and then calling it an solvent pension plan! Quote
WIP Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 I do know this and I am no way arguing it. You completely failed to address my implications. The whole issue with collective bargaining is that as Walker leaves, the unions will collectively bargain for themselves to be right back where they were before this whole debate. Bargaining is asking, and what Scott Walker is doing is telling public service employees in Wisconsin that they don't have the right to even ask for better wages and working conditions. A lot of stupid, uninformed working people in non-union jobs don't seem to realize that THEY have also benefited by proxy from whatever gains have been made by unions over the years. In manufacturing for example, factories that wanted to keep their employees from joining a union, had to offer equal or sometimes better wages than the union shops were paying. Driving down the wages of public sector employees will have a cascading effect on wages and benefits that private sector workers will be able to achieve in Wisconsin! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Shady Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 Bargaining is asking, and what Scott Walker is doing is telling public service employees in Wisconsin that they don't have the right to even ask for better wages and working conditions. You're completely wrong. Under Walker's reform bill, public service unions would still be able to bargain for better wages. And there's already laws regarding working conditions, whether it's a public or private sector job. Quote
jbg Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 The southern us seems to get economic reality, why can't the northern states? Influence from its nearest national border? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Shady Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 Speaking of public sector unions. Has anyone else seen this movie yet? Quote
Pliny Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Economic Policy Institute study on public salaries Interesting survey here. You can argue that this is a liberal-academic group, which is true enough, but the explanation of how the survey was put together is solid. Their thesis is that if you compare salaries based on organization size and education requirements, public salaries (with benefits factored in) are lower than private industry. Conclusion: This is a rather convoluted effort that essentially negates the claim Unions have been the driving force in raising living standards in America. It has been the private sector. Whoda thunk it! Not only are the unions responsible for the high standard of living in America they suffer with lower compensation. Awwwwww!!! If you have read this study, it is a study in statistics and attempts to make compensation for inconsistencies in simple wage and benefit comparisons, such as including education level. I read some of it but not all and what I read didn't seem to contain itself to public employee unions but included all public employees and we know there are lots of lawyers, Engineers of all stripes and Managerial staff that aren't members of the public union but are generally compensated less than the private sector as there is a statutory salary for the positions in government and few bonuses given. Edited March 6, 2011 by Pliny Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
pinko Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) The article cited by Michael Harder is informative in that it demonstrates that teachers in the private sector generally fare better than their unionized counterparts in the public sector when it comes to compensation. In determining wages the level of education tends to distinguish those with a high school education from those with a university degree. In comparing the high school educated individual in the unionized environment those in such an environment tend to do better than their private sector counterparts with a high school education. Here is an excerpt to illustrate the point: A full-time worker on average employed by state and local government received an 11% lower annual earnings compared to the private-sector employees. However, when compared to total compensation, the public employment penalty declines to 2%. High school graduates with some college approached wage earnings equivalency between private and public sector. High school graduates earn $36,640 on average working for state and local government compared to $38,269 for workers employed by private employers, a public-employment wage penalty of 4%. http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf The other component compared in the article looks at the beneifits package and pay between the two sectors and as well looks at the demographics of the two groups. Edited March 6, 2011 by pinko Quote
bloodyminded Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Influence from its nearest national border? Ah. So your view is that the south has been taking lessons from the wise economic plans of its nearest southern national border? Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
jbg Posted March 6, 2011 Report Posted March 6, 2011 Bargaining is asking, and what Scott Walker is doing is telling public service employees in Wisconsin that they don't have the right to even ask for better wages and working conditions. My problem with "collective bargaining" for public sector workers is the inability to hire or fire based on merit. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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