British Leader Admits Multiculturalism Has Failed Badly

[guyser]

Wait until some homosexual is denyed some right by an Islamist ! What ever will the Human Rights court do?

Force them to give him head........instead of cutting it off?

[scribblet]

France is agreeing with the Brits, and they can speak from experience.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Thursday that multiculturalism had failed, joining a growing number of world leaders or former leaders who have condemned it.

“My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure,” he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups.

“Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want ... a society where communities coexist side by side. If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France,” the right-wing president said.

“The French national community cannot accept a change in its lifestyle, equality between men and women ... freedom for little girls to go to school,” he said.

“We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him,” Mr. Sarkozy said in the TFI channel show.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Multiculturalism+clearly+failure+Sarkozy/4261825/story.html#ixzz1Di1JG4YO

[jbg]

How are the British responsible for home grown Islamic terrorism?

Because Britain has the temerity to maintain (barely) diplomatic relations with Israel and Muslims find that offensive.

<sarcasm>In fact, I'll go as far as to say that if Israel didn't exist the Muslim world, both in their own countries, would be a force for peace, progress and productivity </sarcasm>

[Timothy17]

France is agreeing with the Brits, and they can speak from experience.

“Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want ... a society where communities coexist side by side.

Why must all differences be respected ? I think President Sarkozy is not thinking things through when he paints with such a broad brush. Clearly there are differences we are lawfully bound not, and never, to "respect."

I believe, for example, in fighting for the defense of my country, and that involves not betraying the same. If, especially in a time of war, my fellow-soldier declares that he believes differently, and intends to betray us, and then has the audacity to demand I respect this difference between us, I will, nonetheless, report him, and I am sure my superiors will say such a man is an existential threat to the nation. Furthermore, I think it likely that my superiors will say that fancying to betray your country is an opinion that must not be in any way respected, lest in doing so one becomes culpable of aiding or abeting in treason.

"If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France,” the right-wing president said.

On the other extreme we find another problem. If my nation were to suddenly declare itself Marxist, for example, must I become a Marxist and "melt" into that culture, even if it is, by its nature, opposed to the native culture and traditions of the people of the country (e.g., the Cultural Revolution in China brought about by Mao) ? The question then becomes, exactly which culture is the authentic "national" one ? Is it the culture of the present majority ? Or is it linked directly to the beliefs of a certain corpus of people, such as, for example, in America the founding fathers of that country, and their intellectual and cultural descendants ? These are serious considerations that need to be made, thought-through and flushed-out before we make such sweeping statements as President Sarkozy has done, I believe.

Pax,

Tim

Edited February 13, 2011 by Timothy17

[Black Dog]

France is agreeing with the Brits, and they can speak from experience.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Multiculturalism+clearly+failure+Sarkozy/4261825/story.html#ixzz1Di1JG4YO

I seriously doubt you could articulate the differences between state multiculturalism in Germany, Britain, France and Canada, and find it hilarious that you keep treating them the same. Multiculturalism as it is practiced around the world is not some monolithic construct that means the same thing everywhere. Back when we had this same conversation when Angela Merkel declared multiculturalism in Germany had failed, I pointed out that Germany's multicultural policies could charitably be called lip service to the idea. Germany made no efforts to assimilate or accommodate immigrants and offered little incentive for other cultures to give up their own cultural beliefs or practices. France's approach to multiculturalism consists of forcing immigrants to adopt the norms of the dominant culture: pretty much the opposite of a true multicultural approach.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Black Dog

[Mr.Canada]

I seriously doubt you could articulate the differences between state multiculturalism in Germany, Britain, France and Canada, and find it hilarious that you keep treating them the same. Multiculturalism as it is practiced around the world is not some monolithic construct that means the same thing everywhere. Back when we had this same conversation when Angela Merkel declared multiculturalism in Germany had failed, I pointed out that Germany's multicultural policies could charitably be called lip service to the idea. Germany made no efforts to assimilate or accommodate immigrants and offered little incentive for other cultures to give up their own cultural beliefs or practices. France's approach to multiculturalism consists of forcing immigrants to adopt the norms of the dominant culture: pretty much the opposite of a true multicultural approach.

Any immigrants should be adopting the ways of their new country or get out. It should be made clear that certain practices from their home countries aren't welcome here and won't be tolerated. Like the saying...when in Rome.

Instead the majority is forced to change so that the minority doesn't "feel" uncomfortable. No matter how uncomfortable it makes the majority. Immigrants don't want to assimilate, they want to remain separate which is why we have nations within nations now. Every ethnic group having their own area. This isn't multiculturalism this is self segregation.

In the USA, it's more of a melting pot. When you ask people in the USA what nationality they are, they respond...American.

Asking the same question in Canada will get a litany of responses all including some form of hyphenated Canadian.

This is why it has failed.

[JB Globe]

Apparently no western country is when it comes to Islamic immigration. Who else is threatening their adopted country other than the radical Islamists? Yes ,some groups have crime within their ranks ,but no other religion threatens the host country with death and mayhem.Why is that?

Really? Haven't drug gangs with Caribbean backgrounds killed more people in Canada than the zero people killed by Islamist terrorists? Or Italian mafia for that matter? Or white biker gangs?

And why should I be freaked out about a danger that is less common than dying by lightning strike?

[JB Globe]

Many countries are now finding themselves trying to deal with immigrant populations unwilling to accept the laws and values in their adopted societies, this is one of them. It is not unreasonable to expect all immigrants who want to live here to follow our compulsory educational requirements.

And most do.

Contrary to that specific instance, most Muslim students in Canada attend public schools and participate in co-ed programming.

Rather than tar and feather all Muslims - it's more productive to point out to those families "hey, if it's anti-Islamic, than how come so many other Muslims are doing it? And how come this Imam says it's fine?"

But then again, that would mean solving a problem and integrating people, rather than using a problem to lobby for discriminatory immigration requirements based on race or religion.

[Black Dog]

Any immigrants should be adopting the ways of their new country or get out. It should be made clear that certain practices from their home countries aren't welcome here and won't be tolerated. Like the saying...when in Rome.

Instead the majority is forced to change so that the minority doesn't "feel" uncomfortable. No matter how uncomfortable it makes the majority.

I expect you can and will provide a detailed list of examples.

Immigrants don't want to assimilate, they want to remain separate which is why we have nations within nations now. Every ethnic group having their own area. This isn't multiculturalism this is self segregation.

In the USA, it's more of a melting pot.

Yeah, you never see ethnic enclaves in the U.S. Nosiree, no black neighbourhoods, no Hispanic barrios, no white suburbs, no Chinatowns, Little Italys, nothing of the sort.

When you ask people in the USA what nationality they are, they respond...American. Asking the same question in Canada will get a litany of responses all including some form of hyphenated Canadian.

The only practical difference between multiculturalism in the States and Canada is branding. The United States is by and large far more open to newcomers retaining cultural practices than the nominally multicultural states in Europe. You'd never see something like the French hijab ban in the U.S.

[Black Dog]

Many countries are now finding themselves trying to deal with immigrant populations unwilling to accept the laws and values in their adopted societies, this is one of them. It is not unreasonable to expect all immigrants who want to live here to follow our compulsory educational requirements.

Alberta passes law allowing parents to pull kids out of class: Written notice required when sex, sexual orientation, religion are covered

It is not unreasonable to expect all white Christians who want to live here to follow our compulsory educational requirements.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Black Dog

[Wild Bill]

One point I don't think has yet been made is that often the problem with a multi-cult program is not so much how it is practiced as how some groups deliberately take advantage of it!

When is the last time a Japanese or Korean immigrant group demanded to be governed by their religious laws?

[guyser]

When is the last time a Japanese or Korean immigrant group demanded to be governed by their religious laws?

Thats a bit of a misnomer wild bill.

Koreans and Japanese dont normally emigrate. Why bother, they have it pretty good at home.

Japanese approx 85,000

Korean approx 85,000

Not to mention no one else (immigrant wise)makes any sort of wave until some sort of critical mass is achieved.

[bill_barilko]

Thats a bit of a misnomer wild bill.

Koreans and Japanese dont normally emigrate. Why bother, they have it pretty good at home.

Ummm... you've never been too far from the trailer park have you?Not in this life anyway.

Ever visited Korea Town in LA?

Here in Vancouver much of western end of Robson St is Japanese stores/restaurants if not Korean-whole blocks on Kingsway are Korean nary an English language sign in sight-as are parts of the suburb of Coquitlam.

It's true that Japanese try to fit in as they can-Koreans somewhat less so they often seem so unhappy even angry-maybe it's the lousy food they eat-Japanese is so much tastier.

[jbg]

I seriously doubt you could articulate the differences between state multiculturalism in Germany, Britain, France and Canada, and find it hilarious that you keep treating them the same..... Germany made no efforts to assimilate or accommodate immigrants and offered little incentive for other cultures to give up their own cultural beliefs or practices. France's approach to multiculturalism consists of forcing immigrants to adopt the norms of the dominant culture: pretty much the opposite of a true multicultural approach.

I guess neither approach ends well.

[Yukon Jack]

When government starts talking about the need for "national identity" its time to start keeping a real close eye on the fuckers.

When all else fails resort to vulgar obscenity.

[Yukon Jack]

I don't agree.

I have no problem with immigrants or immigration. They should come as Canadians or Americans.

They left hellholes. They have no right to demand that we do things the way they do in their hellholes. And if that means we can run cartoons they don't like, that should be fine with them.

Multi-culturalism is government (i.e. taxpayer) supported subsidy for maintaining culture that its proponents willingly left behind. It takes a totally impertinent and disrespectful person to demand that it should be supported by unwilling taxslaves.

I am an immigrant. I left a hellhole. But when I came to Canada, I made every effort to become Canadian. I learned English without the crutch of programs like the ill-conceived and really, ridiculous "English as Second Language". I knew that any responsible person who came from foreign shores must swim or sink, based on their own effort.

My kids do not speak the language of my old country. That is fine with me. It is my own fault.

I never requested any government program to teach my kids something that I, myself was unable or perhaps unwilling to do.

I have seen kids of immigrants going to school speaking not a word of English and coming home being nearly fluent.

Anyone promoting government supported/subsidized multi-culturalism is by definition is a free-loader. And also by definition, an enemy, or at least an opponent of our country.

[Black Dog]

Multi-culturalism is government (i.e. taxpayer) supported subsidy for maintaining culture that its proponents willingly left behind. It takes a totally impertinent and disrespectful person to demand that it should be supported by unwilling taxslaves.

Explain how. Give me some examples of government programs that subsidize people retaining the cultur ethey left behind.

I am an immigrant. I left a hellhole. But when I came to Canada, I made every effort to become Canadian. I learned English without the crutch of programs like the ill-conceived and really, ridiculous "English as Second Language". I knew that any responsible person who came from foreign shores must swim or sink, based on their own effort.

Two things: self-mythologizing is easy on the internet.

My kids do not speak the language of my old country. That is fine with me. It is my own fault.

I never requested any government program to teach my kids something that I, myself was unable or perhaps unwilling to do.

Are you suggesting the government pays people to learn the language of their old countries? Evidence, please.

I have seen kids of immigrants going to school speaking not a word of English and coming home being nearly fluent.

Sounds like a multicultural success story to me.

Anyone promoting government supported/subsidized multi-culturalism is by definition is a free-loader. And also by definition, an enemy, or at least an opponent of our country.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

[Yukon Jack]

Explain how. Give me some examples of government programs that subsidize people retaining the cultur ethey left behind.

"Two things: self-mythologizing is easy on the internet."

You only said some nonsense about just one thing, however vague.

If you are really interested, I can give you documented evidence that I was not self-mythologizing.

"Are you suggesting the government pays people to learn the language of their old countries? Evidence, please."

Just a few of the many:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/multiculturalism/index.asp

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

"Sounds like a multicultural success story to me."

What, kids learning on their own a multicultural success story?

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Edited February 16, 2011 by Yukon Jack

[Black Dog]

I guess asking for specific examples was setting the bar too high.I had such hopes.

Oh well.

[Michael Hardner]

They're really bad at articulating their arguments, so should we help ?

Maybe we can point out that there was a separate ministry of multiculturalism until recently ? I think it was combined with heritage, though.

I'm not going to research the budgets, though. That's helping too much.

[Black Dog]

They're really bad at articulating their arguments, so should we help ?

Maybe we can point out that there was a separate ministry of multiculturalism until recently ? I think it was combined with heritage, though.

I'm not going to research the budgets, though. That's helping too much.

Multiculturalism is now under Citizenship and Immigration.

The reason they're so shit at arguing this issue is that they don't really have a grasp on what multiculturalism actually is and how it works in different places. It's easier for them to repeat sensationalist claims ripped from the headlines than actually take the time to learn about the issue.

[Michael Hardner]

Multiculturalism is now under Citizenship and Immigration.

The reason they're so shit at arguing this issue is that they don't really have a grasp on what multiculturalism actually is and how it works in different places. It's easier for them to repeat sensationalist claims ripped from the headlines than actually take the time to learn about the issue.

Your claim is further evidenced by a post earlier when someone asked when the US was going to "wake up". Given that they don't have a policy of multiculturalism, it's probably best that some opponents just admit their xenophobia and go away.

[guyser]

Ummm... you've never been too far from the trailer park have you?Not in this life anyway.

Naw, your mom keeps inviting me back everytime you leave.

Ever visited Korea Town in LA?

Dont think I have.....where in Canada is Korea Town LA?

Here in Vancouver much of western end of Robson St is Japanese stores/restaurants if not Korean-whole blocks on Kingsway are Korean nary an English language sign in sight-as are parts of the suburb of Coquitlam.

It's true that Japanese try to fit in as they can-Koreans somewhat less so they often seem so unhappy even angry-maybe it's the lousy food they eat-Japanese is so much tastier.

So one pocket has a few and you get upset?

Tell me, what was wrong with my numbers, or do you extrapolate one neighbourhood and mutliply it by 100 thinking every city would have what you have?

[Black Dog]

Your claim is further evidenced by a post earlier when someone asked when the US was going to "wake up". Given that they don't have a policy of multiculturalism, it's probably best that some opponents just admit their xenophobia and go away.

They are a confused bunch, as their inability to articulate the differences between multiculturalism here, in the U.S. and elsewhere shows.

What's sad is that this thread will peter out with no responses from the usual suspects and then a few months from now jbg or scribblet will post another article about the failure of multiculturalism in Europe (likely based on a specific incident and followed by a series of sweeping generalizations and ending with dire warnings that "we're next!") and the same lamebrained dittoing will go on until someone (read: you or me) actually presses for an answer to the question "what is so wrong with multiculturalism here anyway?" and they'll all skitter off under the cabinets again.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Black Dog

[Charles Anthony]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please avoid the personal attacks. Comments like this:

Ummm... you've never been too far from the trailer park have you?Not in this life anyway.

Naw, your mom keeps inviting me back everytime you leave.

are certainly humorous but they only degrade the civility of the fourms.

Both of you should know better to avoid that.

Ch. A.