CFL light bulbs

Smallc · February 5, 2011

You think that the wind blows and that the sun shines everywhere at the same time? Really?

GostHacked · February 5, 2011

You think that the wind blows and that the sun shines everywhere at the same time? Really?

But one or the other seems to always be present.

Wild Bill · February 5, 2011

You think that the wind blows and that the sun shines everywhere at the same time? Really?

No, they don't! However, in order to take advantage of that, we need a much more modern, "smart" power grid.

Guess what? We don't have one! It will cost billions!

And we can't build it in a few weekends, either.

So who cares if there's wind and solar power in an area that can't send it to us, or at least send it in a controllable fashion to prevent power surges and equipment blowouts.

You have to be a techie I guess to understand that you need more than a giant, long Canadian Tire extension cord to deliver your power. Power grids are rather complicated things. Since they've first been built a huge amount of engineering and constant monitoring has been going on to make sure our power is steady and reliable. To the average consumer this has been an invisible, "behind the scenes" activity that he has not been aware of in the slightest. This does not mean it doesn't exist.

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't have long term goals, of course. Just that we only betray our ignorance and set ourselves up for expensive costs when we try to implement short term solutions that don't satisfy all the real world details.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Wild Bill

Smallc · February 5, 2011

No, they don't! However, in order to take advantage of that, we need a much more modern, "smart" power grid.

Guess what? We don't have one! It will cost billions!

And we can't build it in a few weekends, either.

Who has plans to do that? Ontario and the other provinces are working on such things. All of this will happen over time. Add to that the fact that you yourself talk about the way that power is transfered from place to place now, and I don't see the problem. That doesn't even mention the fact that power will not only come from wind and solar sources, but rather small and large hydro dams, waste energy projects, geothermal projects, nuclear projects, etc.

waldo · February 5, 2011

No, they don't! However, in order to take advantage of that, we need a much more modern, "smart" power grid.
Guess what? We don't have one! It will cost billions!

And we can't build it in a few weekends, either.

So who cares if there's wind and solar power in an area that can't send it to us, or at least send it in a controllable fashion to prevent power surges and equipment blowouts.

You have to be a techie I guess to understand that you need more than a giant, long Canadian Tire extension cord to deliver your power. Power grids are rather complicated things. Since they've first been built a huge amount of engineering and constant monitoring has been going on to make sure our power is steady and reliable. To the average consumer this has been an invisible, "behind the scenes" activity that he has not been aware of in the slightest. This does not mean it doesn't exist.

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't have long term goals, of course. Just that we only betray our ignorance and set ourselves up for expensive costs when we try to implement short term solutions that don't satisfy all the real world details.

nonsense - before embarrassing your self-described 'techy-self' further, I'd suggest you acquaint yourself with the spectrum of (existing) spinning & non-spinning reserve processes, just how wind farms attach to the 'grid' and just how those existing reserves are available and applied to support wind sources... as they are any other existing sources. As has been experienced within Europe, in particular, large amounts of wind energy can be added to the grid with only minimal increases in the use of reserves. You may also want to understand the practices in how wind farms are built to account for wind flow variance across hundreds or even thousands of turbines spread over hundreds of miles... or how sophisticated and proven wind energy forecasting allows system operators to predict and accomodate for changes in wind output hours or even days in advance with a high degree of accuracy.

Saipan · February 5, 2011

turbines spread over hundreds of miles

Some European countries are not even that big, never mind most don't want them on their land.

Even in Canada we can't afford to clutter hundreds of miles of farm land.

Windturbines are excellent source for cottage, boat, etc. and that's about it.

Larger ones are very dangerous and kill thousands of birds.

Wild Bill · February 5, 2011

nonsense - before embarrassing your self-described 'techy-self' further, I'd suggest you acquaint yourself with the spectrum of (existing) spinning & non-spinning reserve processes, just how wind farms attach to the 'grid' and just how those existing reserves are available and applied to support wind sources... as they are any other existing sources. As has been experienced within Europe, in particular, large amounts of wind energy can be added to the grid with only minimal increases in the use of reserves. You may also want to understand the practices in how wind farms are built to account for wind flow variance across hundreds or even thousands of turbines spread over hundreds of miles... or how sophisticated and proven wind energy forecasting allows system operators to predict and accomodate for changes in wind output hours or even days in advance with a high degree of accuracy.

I won't argue with you about what they do in other parts of the world. I will agree with you that other countries seem to be much more sensible.

You see, Ontario has it's own twist on the situation. Those who signed up to provide wind and solar power get a HUGELY inflated price for it!

What's more, Ontario has signed contracts with them to GUARANTEE to take their power ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT, FOR 20 YEARS!

So if you are a supplier under a FIT or MicroFit program, you will NEVER have to throttle back or take your generation offline! You will always be paid the maximum!

I'm not arguing that many alternatives aren't practical, or can be made to be practical. I am arguing solely and only with the way McGuinty and his people have done things.

Is it your position to defend McGuinty's choices?

dre · February 5, 2011

Some European countries are not even that big, never mind most don't want them on their land.

Even in Canada we can't afford to clutter hundreds of miles of farm land.

Windturbines are excellent source for cottage, boat, etc. and that's about it.

Larger ones are very dangerous and kill thousands of birds.

All horse shit!

First of of all in areas where NET metering is in place farmers have been shown to be more than happy to accomodate wind turbines. A modern stayless turbine takes up about 64 square feet on the ground. Thats it. You can farm right underneath them just fine. And modern wint turbines have relatively slow moving blades and account for only a tiny tiny percentage of the birds killed by human activity.

Wild Bill · February 5, 2011

All horse shit!

First of of all in areas where NET metering is in place farmers have been shown to be more than happy to accomodate wind turbines. A modern stayless turbine takes up about 64 square feet on the ground. Thats it. You can farm right underneath them just fine. And modern wint turbines have relatively slow moving blades and account for only a tiny tiny percentage of the birds killed by human activity.

Absolutely right, Dr. Dre!

What's more, if Saipan's arguements about how we can't afford to clutter farmland were correct then why the hell did so flippin' many farmers sign up for McGuinty's MicroFit program, to the point where he had a huge backlog of applications? Seems to me that if their farmland was profitable they wouldn't have been interested.

Saipan is obviously not an Ontario farmer.

Saipan · February 5, 2011

Absolutely right, Dr. Dre!

What's more, if Saipan's arguements about how we can't afford to clutter farmland were correct then why the hell did so flippin' many farmers sign up for McGuinty's MicroFit program, to the point where he had a huge backlog of applications? Seems to me that if their farmland was profitable they wouldn't have been interested.

Saipan is obviously not an Ontario farmer.

If the farmer gets more money to put a large parking lot on his property he'll gladly sell it.

That farmer is glad prices for corn and wheat had skyrocketed, thanks to biofools. While poor go hungry. People in Mexico demonstrating about price of tortillas (made of corn) and Italy because of pasta. Our bread also doubled.

Saipan · February 5, 2011

Saipan is obviously not an Ontario farmer.

No, Dr. Dre is.

Wild Bill · February 6, 2011

If the farmer gets more money to put a large parking lot on his property he'll gladly sell it.

That farmer is glad prices for corn and wheat had skyrocketed, thanks to biofools. While poor go hungry. People in Mexico demonstrating about price of tortillas (made of corn) and Italy because of pasta. Our bread also doubled.

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. If corn and wheat prices were so great, that makes it even stranger that so many farmers chose to put up solar and wind systems under the MicroFit program instead.

The only logical explanation is that the MicroFit program is more profitable than anything else. That was the major point of my criticisms of what McGuinty has done.

Saipan · February 6, 2011

The only logical explanation is that the MicroFit program is more profitable than anything else. That was the major point of my criticisms of what McGuinty has done.

With our tax dollar. AND the electricity cost more.

cybercoma · February 6, 2011

That is what I am getting at, you break one of these in your house ,you need a hazmat team to come in and clean.

I've read if you break one, then get your kids out of the room because of the mercury that is in them. When cleaning up the bulb, you have to wear gloves and put it in a jar to go to the hazardous depot.

No, and I won't be due to the mercury content.

The mercury is a very serious problem, in particular if these bulbs become the main light source for millions of homes in Canada. Even with the implementation of a recycling program, some bulbs will be improperly discarded and it will lead to contamination. We saw what mercury did to Lake Ontario fish, for example.

You would think that there would be some outrage about the fact that if one bursts in a school they do have to call in a Hazmat team.

There is a chart on this information sheet ( http://www.cnpower.com/assets/news/cfl_info.pdf )explaining the mercury content of CFL bulbs compared to other household items. I don't use the bulbs because they don't last as long as advertised. In fact, I have regular bulbs that have lasted longer. The mercury content, however, is not as bad as you guys are making it seem:

1 watch battery = 5 CFL bulbs

1 dental amalgam = 100 CFL bulbs

1 home thermometer = 100-400 CFL bulbs

1 sump pump float switch = 400 CFL bulbs

1 tilt thermostat = 600 CFL bulbs

1 electrical tilt switch or relays = 600-700 CFL bulbs

Not to mention the countless laptops, ipods, cellphones and cordless phones out there with more mercury in them than CFL bulbs, yet no one avoids using them for that reason.

Having said that, you do need to be careful with them, clean up properly and recycle them even if they are broken (Home Depot and Walmarts have drop boxes).

Edited February 6, 2011 by cybercoma

Saipan · February 7, 2011

Topaz, on 03 February 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:
I've read if you break one, then get your kids out of the room because of the mercury that is in them.

You can't eat the kids after?

dre · February 7, 2011

Absolutely right, Dr. Dre!

What's more, if Saipan's arguements about how we can't afford to clutter farmland were correct then why the hell did so flippin' many farmers sign up for McGuinty's MicroFit program, to the point where he had a huge backlog of applications? Seems to me that if their farmland was profitable they wouldn't have been interested.

Saipan is obviously not an Ontario farmer.

Oh yeah...

A turbine like this one has about a 40 square foot footprint at ground level. At 1.5 megawatts he'll make $60+ dollars per hour when the wind is blowing enough to run the turbine at 66% of its peak output. In a windy area that could be 10 thousand dollars per month if youre get 6 or 8 cents per kwh.

He would be lucky to make 100 bux a year farming wheat or corn on that 40 square foot patch!

This could even help farmers get off WELFARE! Right now farmers recieve billions of dollars in federal welfare checks. About a quarter of their income on average comes not from farming wheat or corn, but from agricultural subsidies.

Modern wind turbines can provide an extra source of income for farmers in several ways.
One option is to lease your land to a wind developer. These can be paid either as a set rental fee or by receiving a percentage of gross annual revenue. The U.S. Government Accountability Office reports that farmers who lease their land earn an average of $3,000-15,000 per turbine per year in lease payments, depending on factors such as the size and capacity of turbines, the quality of the wind resource, and the amount of electricity produced. Turbines typically require one half acre to one acre each, but depending on the terms of the lease, you may be able to continue some agricultural activities under or around them.

Another option is to install your own turbines, privately or through a cooperative. Although this typically has higher upfront costs, the return is also higher, and you may be eligible for federal subsidies, tax breaks, or cost-share programs to help offset installation costs.

Privately owned small wind systems can create income for you in one of two main ways. Net metering allows you, as the consumer, to offset the cost of the electricity you buy from your local utility by selling the renewable electricity you generate back to the utility. It generally makes the most sense for smaller, primarily residential, installations. When you produce excess energy, your meter will run backwards. If, at the end of the month, you have produced more energy than you have used, your utility company will pay you for the difference. Currently, 34 states offer some sort of net metering program.

Another option is to sell power directly to utility companies. Electric companies are increasingly buying power from independent producers instead of, or in addition to, producing their own.

Saipan · February 7, 2011

A turbine like this one has about a 40 square foot footprint at ground level. At 1.5 megawatts he'll make $60+ dollars per hour when the wind is blowing enough to run the turbine at 66% of its peak output. In a windy area that could be 10 thousand dollars per month if youre get 6 or 8 cents per kwh.

He would be lucky to make 100 bux a year farming wheat or corn on that 40 square foot patch!

The farmer gets that? Or Ontario Hydro? 40 sq.ft. So where the prop is? How close is the next one?

He'll make millions if he opens casino. Indians do that.

dre · February 7, 2011

The farmer gets that? Or Ontario Hydro? 40 sq.ft. So where the prop is? How close is the next one?

He'll make millions if he opens casino. Indians do that.

He can either own the turbines, or lease the land to a utility.

So where the prop is?

Its on top of the mast attached to the front of the nacelle.

How close is the next one?

You cant put them close together, because they create turbulence in the air and the turbulent air wont effectively drive turbines that are in the shadow of the first one hit. In most cases they have very little or no impact on how productive the farm is.

He'll make millions if he opens casino. Indians do that.

:blink:

Saipan · February 7, 2011

You cant put them close together, because they create turbulence in the air and the turbulent air wont effectively drive turbines that are in the shadow of the first one hit.

I'd get that part from sail racing.

dre · February 7, 2011

I'd get that part from sail racing.

LOVE sailing

Saipan · February 7, 2011

I got O'Day 20 and Buccaneer 22.

GWiz · February 7, 2011

Lighting, furnace blowers, appliances, electronic equipment and lighting only represent about 10% of your total energy consumption in the average house. The number one energy waster - the hot water tank - uses on its own about 40% of the total energy consumption, then the furnace (20%) and the dryer (10%). Want to save energy (and money?) Installing a direct vent gas on-demand hot water heater will cut the hot water consumption in half; an air source heat pump depending on the location can cut from 10% to 40% of the heating bill; and insulating the basement walls full height to R20 will save about 10% of the heating budget.

What people don't consider is that CFLs may actually cost more to operate in the winter over incandescent bubls because the latter give off heat that is recovered in the heating of the home (100 watts = 341 BTUs: average house uses about 60-100,000 BTU/H in heating)

Money wasters:

1. New windows even over single pane windows only save about 1000 BTU/H for the average house.

2. Geothermal units have a high capital cost that in most cases will never be recovered in the lifetime of the equipment. People end up paying for the privilege of installing that kind of equipment. What the heating guys often fail to mention as well is that they only have to size the equipment to meet 70% of your heat load. The other 30% comes from an electric coil back-up in the air handler. That means that on the coldest days of the year you are operating on pure electric heat. The other myth is that geothermal is completely free heat. The compressors and pumps use more energy than a standard gas furnace. Also ground and water freezes when you take too much out of it and the geothermals are prone to shutting down. Bad investment in my opinion.

3. Adding more than R50 to an attic. Although one thinks it might be a good investment the additional insulation after R50 on has about a 2-3% effect on the heat load of a house, where up to R50 can save upwards of 20% of the heating budget. Also for walls stuffing more insulation in an already insulated wall has a negative effect. 22% of the wall area is made up of studs and plates which only have an R-value of about 3.

Good investments:

1. Air source heat pumps in milder climates is a good return on investment.

2. Adding 1 1/2" rigid foam (SM type) insulation to the inside or outside of exterior walls is the best way to add insulation. Not only do you add about R7.5 to the R20 insulated cavities but your change the stud/plate value to R10.5 from R3 AND reduce thermal bridging through the wood to the exterior.

3. 2 or 3 cases of acoustical sealant and a case of silicone caulking for the interior sealing of cracks and air leakages. In a pre-1970's house the heat losses due to infiltration can amount to more than 75% of the total heating budget. Post 1990 buildings reducing the leakage can save about 30%-40% of the heating budget. The goal would be to get the house to about 1.5 air changes per hour (can be measured by a blower-door test). Any less and you will have to also install a mechanical ventilation system to take care of excess moisture that will build up in the house. Best return on investment. Under $100 can save thousands on heating a year.

CFLs are just part of the equation in an over-all energy strategy. But putting the good money on sure things works even better.

Hmmm, all good points but not quite right about the Geothermal...

I live in Winnipeg... It get's pretty cold in winter and pretty hot in summer... 3 years ago I converted to Geothermal heating and cooling and I couldn't be happier... By provincial law all Geothermal units have to have, as mentioned, an auxilliary "back up" electric coil unit with it, mine has, the smallest available at 5000 btu (10,000 is the "standard"), it's not even "hooked up" on mine...

Just the facts:

The house - Raised Bungalow with 5BR & 3 Baths and 2200 sq. ft. of living space on two levels... Built in 1965...

Initial Capital Cost - approx. $20,000.00 including new electic water heater after Fed. and Prov. grants/rebates avail. at the time - $15,500.00

Heating/Cooling & Electricity costs prior - approx. $220.00 averaged P.M.

Current averaged Heating/Cooling & Electricity - approx. $85.00 P.M.

Savings - avg. $135.00 P.M

Temp. in house winter and summer 21.5C - 72F

Added benefit in summer on Electric water heater by Geo. aided Water Heating...

Problems- none (from -43C to +40C) in 3 years...

Other things I've done to my home re: energy efficiency - ThermoGard (brand name) pliable stucco coating which seals the house (it works, my home is in the top 5% of homes in Manitoba in energy efficiency based on heat lose - leakage) at about the same cost as painting the stucco (3 sides) & foundation above ground... cost - $2800.00 (it looks real nice too and is lifetime guaranteed)

R50 Attic insulation - blown in fibreglass - cost after overlapping Fed. & Prov. rebates minus $87.00 (more rebate than cost)...

Converted whole house to CFL Lighting - cost near zero with Manitoba Hydro free exchanges & the fact that my basement and kitchen already had flourescent lights (tubes)... One point I'd like to make is that approx. 95% of commercial buildings (office, warehouse, manufacturing, etc.) in Canada are lit with flourescent (CFL) lighting, so it's hardly something new other than the configuration of the lights (tubes vs "bulbs")... The way I fugure it is if it's good enough for business it should be good enough for me...

Oh, almost forgot, one "expense" you didn't mention is Computers (+ modems etc.) and TVs which in most homes today cost quite a bit in electricity, I know they do in mine...

One other point in calculating "pay back" I compared the difference in cost of getting a new high efficiency furnace and air conditioning (approx. $10,000) to getting Geothermal so on balance my "pay back" will be 4-7 years on the difference...

Another thing, I created signicicant man hours of employment by all the things I've done since all labour and products, the Geothermal unit was manufactured in a plant in London Ont., shipping to Winnipeg, the stucco coating & attic insul. produced in Manitoba, over 150 man hours of local labour to install + production labour hours for the products...

Since I use no "fossil fuels" in my home I have no worries about things like carbon monoxide or explosions... Since Manitoba's electricity is 100% Hydro Electric I have a very small "carbon footprint" as it pertains to my home... An added benefit, since my decisions were based solely on cost benefit not "green" benefit...

Shady · February 7, 2011

How about we just let people manufacture which ever kind of light bulbs that want. And we let people decide which ones they'd like to buy. I know, I know. Crazy talk. :rolleyes:

GWiz · February 7, 2011

There's an easy way to store hydro electricity. We do it all of the time in Manitoba. We buy US power during off peak times cheap, and then turn on the taps to the dams and sell them power at the higher daytime rates.

You're nuts... Manitoba does NOT buy power from the U.S.... Where'd you get that idea from? Manitoba SELLS electricity, as a major Hydro Electric Exporter (Quebec being the other major Hydro Electric Exporter) to the U.S. and other provinces at a negotiated export rate slightly higher than what Manitoba Hydro charges us (Manitobans)...

Electricity Exports

Edited February 7, 2011 by GWiz

dre · February 7, 2011

How about we just let people manufacture which ever kind of light bulbs that want. And we let people decide which ones they'd like to buy. I know, I know. Crazy talk.

Thats what we do, genius.