God vs Science

[maple_leafs182]

We don't trust because of faith - we trust it because of experience. We have had plenty of experiments over the last 100 years that allow us to evaluate the merits of different economic models. The free market model has been the most successful when it comes to improving the quality of life for everyone. Obviously, it is not perfect but it does not have to be perfect - it just has to be better than all others.

I guess I don't disagree with this post buy why not use science, technology and our technological knowledge to improve the quality of life for everyone instead of a market economy. I understand that with communism resources weren't being allocated properly and a market economy to a certain extent resolves that problem but a market economy still creates a lot of waste, pollution and poverty. A market economy really isn't efficient.

Science and technology are the things that truly help improve our standard of living but they aren't at the forefront of our economy, money and profit seeking corporations are.

[cybercoma]

If you're not mature enough to accept that there will be those who will be immovable in their views, that you don't necessarily have to agree with them (vice versa), acknowledge that we all have our own views...then I surely wouldn't even want to waste my time on you.

Ironically, you criticize kimmy for being irrational, yet you sit here and proclaim that you are "immovable in [your] views". That's the difference between you and a rational person. Someone that is rational is self-reflexive and re-evaluates their position when with new knowledge. You, on the other hand, have embraced irrationality. You then criticize others for what you perceive as irrational, which makes you not only irrational, but also a hypocrite. In that sense, why wouldn't she and anyone else that tries to have a rational conversation hate you? You're absolutely impossible to reason with and you apply a different standard to others than you do to yourself.

[cybercoma]

Christian fundamentalism, creationism, Intelligent Design are all very much minority views.

Frighteningly, outside this forum it's not a clear minority. Edited February 7, 2011 by cybercoma

[betsy]

Ironically, you criticize kimmy for being irrational, yet you sit here and proclaim that you are "immovable in [your] views". That's the difference between you and a rational person. Someone that is rational is self-reflexive and re-evaluates their position when with new knowledge. You, on the other hand, have embraced irrationality. You then criticize others for what you perceive as irrational, which makes you not only irrational, but also a hypocrite. In that sense, why wouldn't she and anyone else that tries to have a rational conversation hate you? You're absolutely impossible to reason with and you apply a different standard to others than you do to yourself.

You gotta be kidding me. You too?

:I'm really surprised people still humour betsy by replying to her. I would have thought everyone would have given up by now. You're a persistent bunch.

Can't keep away....can't resist?

I'm really surprised people still humour betsy by replying to her.

So what do you think you're doing now?

You're a persistent bunch.

And he calls me hypocrite.

Whatever....

[cybercoma]

Yeah. I was kidding about being surprised that everyone still replies to you. It's pretty convenient that you completely ignored everything else I said though.

[betsy]

Yeah. I was kidding about being surprised that everyone still replies to you. It's pretty convenient that you completely ignored everything else I said though.

Whatever...

[GostHacked]

Whatever...

This is what it usually comes down to. When you got nothing left to say, nothing else to bring to the table. Good job Betsy.

[betsy]

Betsy:

This topic is just a stark and undoubtedly clear depiction that there are those atheists (stressing that means not all atheists) who hunger for the discovery that will prove that there is no God. If you scroll back to all the topics that dealt with religion/evolution etc., those who tend to possess such rabid hunger for the confirmation that there is indeed no God also bear such hostility towards God, religion or anyone professing to believe in God. Intended insults to God, deliberately seeking to offend and ridicule believers into either acquiscence or silence in expression of belief.

Betsy:

Clearly some of the replies that followed after my Hawking post failed to see the ironic connection between the so-called fictitious Einstein anecdote, and reaction to Hawking's conclusion......

...or it just clearly demonstrate that they see what they want to see....

...or displaying the art of going the usual roundabout-usual twisting about - distorting - going off-except-to-the-point being presented....

...or that truth is relative (at least that's how Kimmy demonstrated it. Perfectly showing the typical mindset of some liberalists/secularists. It's okay to deliberately distort, right?)....

...or all of the above.

Some of the rabid posts that follow after my reply to Kimmy's last post conveniently overlooked or deliberately ignored how the episode between Kimmy and me started.

Proving that to these types of troubled atheists....

....truth is relative.

....they just see what they want to see.

....roundabout-usual twisting about - distorting - going off-except-to-the-point being presented....is just how they choose to engage.

There is no real wish for objective discussion with this folks. The solution is so simple. Ignore me, and what I say. Keep away. Don't even bother coming to the thread. As Cybercoma had said, I am "irrationally immovable." So why do you bother?

Why are these folks irresistibly drawn to the very thing they so loudly claim to abhor? Like nails to magnet? Moths to flame?

As I've already vented out on Kimmy, I do not hate her. And I feel no anger towards Cybercoma or Gosthack.

I say again....who knows. Perhaps God is knocking....but they aren't listening.

Paul of Tarsus rabidly hated and persecuted Christians, to the point of pursuing them earnestly....and became an Apostle.

Edited February 8, 2011 by betsy

[pinko]

"Perhaps God is knocking....but they aren't listening.

Paul of Tarsus rabidly hated and persecuted Christians, to the point of pursuing them earnestly....and became an Apostle."

Another alternative is that there is no such thing as God other than in your imagination.

[GostHacked]

Some of the rabid posts that follow after my reply to Kimmy's last post conveniently overlooked or deliberately ignored how the episode between Kimmy and me started.

Like how you deliberately ignore the rest of the posts in this thread you created? Like all the other threads you created on this topic?

Proving that to these types of troubled atheists....

....truth is relative.

As long as you read the bible and believe in god

....they just see what they want to see.

Through your biblical glasses.

....roundabout-usual twisting about - distorting - going off-except-to-the-point being presented.

Like creationists.

...is just how they choose to engage.

Just like you Betsy!!!

There is no real wish for objective discussion with this folks. The solution is so simple. Ignore me, and what I say. Keep away. Don't even bother coming to the thread. As Cybercoma had said, I am "irrationally immovable." So why do you bother?

AHAHAHAH, and you are objective?

As I've already vented out on Kimmy, I do not hate her. And I feel no anger towards Cybercoma or Gosthack.

NBo but I bet you roll your eyes sitting at your computer reading our posts all the while thinking we are deluded.

I say again....who knows. Perhaps God is knocking....but they aren't listening.

Guess he is not knocking loud enough.

[betsy]

Like how you deliberately ignore the rest of the posts in this thread you created? Like all the other threads you created on this topic?

As long as you read the bible and believe in god

Through your biblical glasses.

Like creationists.

Just like you Betsy!!!

AHAHAHAH, and you are objective?

NBo but I bet you roll your eyes sitting at your computer reading our posts all the while thinking we are deluded.

Guess he is not knocking loud enough.

As you've explained above, you don't even like the way I conduct myself in discussions, and actually called me a troll. Of course, why shouldn't I roll my eyes like this...

You went about the usual long, winded, merry-go-round of yada-yada...and yet you never answered the question:

Why can't you keep away?

[guyser]

...and yet you never answered the question:

Why can't you keep away?

Because proselytizing beotches irritate people.

Not to mention they generally are hypocrites of the worst kind.

Nobody likes a hypocrite.

[Wild Bill]

As you've explained above, you don't even like the way I conduct myself in discussions, and actually called me a troll. Of course, why shouldn't I roll my eyes like this...

You went about the usual long, winded, merry-go-round of yada-yada...and yet you never answered the question:

Why can't you keep away?

Betsy, I think by now you should have realized that you are never going to change any minds here. That's because the minds involved are too different!

Back in my hippy days, we used to call them 'head' people and 'heart' people. Most of the posters to this board appear to be 'head' people. This doesn't at all mean they don't have hearts but it does mean that they tend to think in a more logical, cause and effect manner.

Head people can NEVER accept Christian fundamentalist views, Betsy! They (and I include myself) are hard wired to need explanations that are logical and make sense, corresponding to the available evidence and not causing contradictions.

These types of minds don't accept much of anything just on faith! It makes them feel very insecure, because they feel the need to cope with any and all contradictions that come along.

What's more, since they tend to be bright and well-informed, the more they learn the less they will accept on blind faith! Unfortunately, Christian fundamentalism offers little or nothing else but blind faith. It may be easier for someone like you, since I can see by your arguments that you are indeed a 'heart' person. Heart people make wonderful friends but very poor engineers and scientists, as a rule.

I think the reason that debates such as this thread can provoke such agitated responses is because many people feel inhibited about dealing with the Witness who bangs on their door early in the morning face to face. It seems to be a common approach to pretend not to be home and not answer the door! An Internet venue is faceless, so they vent their energy on someone like you, hiding behind the anonymity.

Myself, I'm old enough to have gone beyond that. I often will invite those Witnesses or Mormons in for tea, treat them as civilly as I can but refuse to change my mind in any way. I explain to them that I am more of a scientific type. I won't accept anything from their Bible because I don't accept that it is Gospel just because they say it is. That usually leaves them with little or nothing to say!

I had one nice Witness lady come back one morning with one of her magazines in hand, triumphantly boasting that "It has a big article on Darwin! There's something with a scientist!"

"My dear lady, I replied. " Darwin has been dead for well over a 120 years! Couldn't you come up with somebody at bit more contemporary?"

The problem for her is that she can't! Her faith has chosen to accept what knowledge they had in their brains at the start and they are at odds with anything that might contradict that, forevermore!

Can you name any scientist at the level of a Feynan, Mullis or Hawking that believes in Christian fundamentalism? NOT just believing in God but believing in the literal truth of the Christian Bible? I don't think you could find even one! That's because their brains literally don't work in a way that would allow that. They don't believe just because that's what they're told by some authority figure like a minister or priest. They need explanations and evidence that they can examine for themselves FIRST!

So really, these threads are pointless. That being said, if you were to happen to bang on my door some weekend morning, rest assured I'd give you a cup of tea.

Perhaps some shortbread cookies, as well!

[betsy]

Because proselytizing beotches irritate people.

Not to mention they generally are hypocrites of the worst kind.

Nobody likes a hypocrite.

I could understand a "drive-by" comment. Make a statement then poof....gone!

But that's just it. If someone doesn't like this proselytizing, hypocritical beotch....why keep coming back?

[guyser]

I could understand a "drive-by" comment. Make a statement then poof....gone!

But that's just it. If someone doesn't like this proselytizing, hypocritical beotch....why keep coming back?

For the same reason you keep posting.

[betsy]

Betsy, I think by now you should have realized that you are never going to change any minds here. That's because the minds involved are too different!

I think the reason that debates such as this thread can provoke such agitated responses is because many people feel inhibited about dealing with the Witness who bangs on their door early in the morning face to face. It seems to be a common approach to pretend not to be home and not answer the door! An Internet venue is faceless, so they vent their energy on someone like you, hiding behind the anonymity.

I agree, I'm not going to change any minds here.

Outside the forum, I do not engage anyone in any religious discussion. I also try to avoid Witness knocking on the door, nor do I wish to be bothered by salespeople or telemarketeers.

Do these atheists in question react so irrationaly hostile towards sales people, I wonder.

I do not knock on their door. I do not twist arms forcing them to enter my topic. I do not do any false-advertising to trick them to come to my topic. And yet, they couldn't help but come anyway. Clearly, there is a deadly attraction to the subject, Faith and God.

This thread is meant to show that certain types of atheists (like the rabid ones who actually do not wish to engage in a civil discussion) are either... having trouble with their own atheistic belief , that's why perhaps they like to silence me so they wouldn't be reminded of their own insecurity. Perhaps a tug-o-war is being fought deep inside.

Image of a person covering both ears and yelling stop it! stop it! stop it! comes to mind. Image of a person singing a sing-song la-la-la-la at the top of his voice to drown out what he doesn't want to hear also come to mind.

....or they can be compared to irrational religious fundamentalists. That atheism is their religion. Protective of their own...and see me as "poaching" among its "congregation."

Well I think I've already illustrated what I'm on about. It's time I put this topic to rest.

Edited February 9, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

This thread is meant to show that certain types of atheists (like the rabid ones who actually do not wish to engage in a civil discussion) are either... having trouble with their own atheistic belief , that's why perhaps they like to silence me so they wouldn't be reminded of their own insecurity. Perhaps a tug-o-war is being fought deep inside.

Image of a person covering both ears and yelling stop it! stop it! stop it! comes to mind. Image of a person singing a sing-song la-la-la-la at the top of his voice to drown out what he doesn't want to hear also come to mind.

Wow.

Do you think people that are angered by holocaust deniers are struggling with their own belief that the holocaust happened?

[Jonsa]

Betsy, I think by now you should have realized that you are never going to change any minds here. That's because the minds involved are too different!

Back in my hippy days, we used to call them 'head' people and 'heart' people. Most of the posters to this board appear to be 'head' people. This doesn't at all mean they don't have hearts but it does mean that they tend to think in a more logical, cause and effect manner.

Head people can NEVER accept Christian fundamentalist views, Betsy! They (and I include myself) are hard wired to need explanations that are logical and make sense, corresponding to the available evidence and not causing contradictions.

These types of minds don't accept much of anything just on faith! It makes them feel very insecure, because they feel the need to cope with any and all contradictions that come along.

What's more, since they tend to be bright and well-informed, the more they learn the less they will accept on blind faith! Unfortunately, Christian fundamentalism offers little or nothing else but blind faith. It may be easier for someone like you, since I can see by your arguments that you are indeed a 'heart' person. Heart people make wonderful friends but very poor engineers and scientists, as a rule.

I think the reason that debates such as this thread can provoke such agitated responses is because many people feel inhibited about dealing with the Witness who bangs on their door early in the morning face to face. It seems to be a common approach to pretend not to be home and not answer the door! An Internet venue is faceless, so they vent their energy on someone like you, hiding behind the anonymity.

Myself, I'm old enough to have gone beyond that. I often will invite those Witnesses or Mormons in for tea, treat them as civilly as I can but refuse to change my mind in any way. I explain to them that I am more of a scientific type. I won't accept anything from their Bible because I don't accept that it is Gospel just because they say it is. That usually leaves them with little or nothing to say!

I had one nice Witness lady come back one morning with one of her magazines in hand, triumphantly boasting that "It has a big article on Darwin! There's something with a scientist!"

"My dear lady, I replied. " Darwin has been dead for well over a 120 years! Couldn't you come up with somebody at bit more contemporary?"

The problem for her is that she can't! Her faith has chosen to accept what knowledge they had in their brains at the start and they are at odds with anything that might contradict that, forevermore!

Can you name any scientist at the level of a Feynan, Mullis or Hawking that believes in Christian fundamentalism? NOT just believing in God but believing in the literal truth of the Christian Bible? I don't think you could find even one! That's because their brains literally don't work in a way that would allow that. They don't believe just because that's what they're told by some authority figure like a minister or priest. They need explanations and evidence that they can examine for themselves FIRST!

So really, these threads are pointless. That being said, if you were to happen to bang on my door some weekend morning, rest assured I'd give you a cup of tea.

Perhaps some shortbread cookies, as well!

Far out man.

excellent post.

PS. don't take the brown acid.

[GostHacked]

As you've explained above, you don't even like the way I conduct myself in discussions, and actually called me a troll. Of course, why shouldn't I roll my eyes like this...

You went about the usual long, winded, merry-go-round of yada-yada...and yet you never answered the question:

Why can't you keep away?

The reason I can't keep away, is because I find your ignorance fascinating.

[WIP]

Some of the rabid posts that follow after my reply to Kimmy's last post conveniently overlooked or deliberately ignored how the episode between Kimmy and me started.

Maybe most of us don't really care how it started.

Proving that to these types of troubled atheists....

There is no real wish for objective discussion with this folks. The solution is so simple. Ignore me, and what I say. Keep away. Don't even bother coming to the thread. As Cybercoma had said, I am "irrationally immovable." So why do you bother?

Aside from proselytizing fundamentalists (well, at least you, if there are no others on this board) and proselytizing atheists, the vast majority of people who don't judge others based on what their beliefs are, have pretty much ignored your evangelical threads.

I say again....who knows. Perhaps God is knocking....but they aren't listening.

Paul of Tarsus rabidly hated and persecuted Christians, to the point of pursuing them earnestly....and became an Apostle.

You can't fool me, or others who have come out of a strong fundamentalist evangelical background. I know that indifference or even lukewarm acceptance is not what an evangelist wants to hear. Winning lost souls comes few and far between, so getting an angry, beligerent reaction is interpreted as confirmation of being on God's side.

[kimmy]

Why are these folks irresistibly drawn to the very thing they so loudly claim to abhor? Like nails to magnet? Moths to flame?

I think "drawn like hecklers to bad stand-up comedy" is a better analogy, betsy.

Kimmy tried to ridicule my opinion to the extent of deliberately mis-quoting me. Instead of an apology or an explanation, she made another attempt. (see posts #16, 17, 48 and 53).

I think it's hilarious that you feel I attempted to "ridicule" you when I pointed out that you've tried to pass off fiction as fact here.

There is no point in engaging someone in a discussion who deliberately distort and manipulate with malice.

And that's why I long ago gave up trying to discuss anything with you. You're pathologically incapable of discussing this topic without distorting and misrepresenting the opinions of those you disagree with.

It is also rude and self-centered to disrupt discussions like a bratty kid interrupting adults in their conversation just for attention.

Is it rude and self-centered to point out that somebody is trying to spread false information?

Of course Kimmy hates me. There’s no surprise there. She’s got anger issues, BIG TIME! Hate is a very strong word. Irrational. It is the views I represent. About God and faith. She hurls insults and uses dishonest methods of engagements...and she goes ballistic when she gets insulted back, or reads my analysis. Must've definitely saw herself in that profile.

Funny, you talking about *other* people having anger issues. Those of us who've been here long enough recall plenty of threads where you went ballistic when you felt that the Christian faith was under attack. My favorite one was the thread with the clip from the movie Jesus Camp where you didn't just go berserk on members of this forum, but also signed up for a YouTube account so that you could fight with people who posted comments about the clip there as well.

Insecurity about your faith? hmm.

What's so telling for me though is her usage of the word “we.” It speaks volume about a lack of confidence. She cannot even stand up on her own to say, I HATE YOU.

I was presuming to speak on behalf of the others who react as negatively to your idiocy as I do.

Do I hate you? Well, hate is a pretty strong word. I feel contempt for you. I'd have to consult one of the forum's semantics experts to find out if that's really the same as hate.

I dislike you, for sure, and not for your views but for the way you conduct yourself.

For example:

This thread is meant to show that certain types of atheists (like the rabid ones who actually do not wish to engage in a civil discussion) are either... having trouble with their own atheistic belief , that's why perhaps they like to silence me so they wouldn't be reminded of their own insecurity. Perhaps a tug-o-war is being fought deep inside.

Finally, an admission that you're just here trolling for negative reactions. So that you can presume to speak about their motives. Perhaps they feel a tug-of-war deep inside. Or perhaps they are just tired of The Faithful using false claims to spread their ideology. I can't speak for others, but for me it's definitely the latter.

-k

[betsy]

Perhaps God is knocking....but they aren't listening.

Paul of Tarsus rabidly hated and persecuted Christians, to the point of pursuing them earnestly....and became an Apostle."

Another alternative is that there is no such thing as God other than in your imagination.

That's what these folks keep reiterating.

Pinko, are you saying this to me......or to yourself?

You don't need to answer.

Edited February 10, 2011 by betsy

[Wild Bill]

That's what these folks keep reiterating.

Pinko, are you saying this to me......or to yourself?

You don't need to answer.

Betsy, that was totally biased and unfair! Pinko pointed out a perfectly logical possibility. You twist it into an implication that he is projecting some internal problems and then tell him not to answer, further implying that he is fooling himself.

That's outright arrogant! NOT logical! This is why you provoke some negative reactions. It's not that you are challenging some people's beliefs. You are arrogantly trying to paint them as something they're not!

This is very disappointing, Betsy. You are living proof why we should have a separation of Church and State. If YOUR church were to be running things, they would need a lot of guns to keep people under control...

I think I'll hang on to my tea and cookies...

Edited February 10, 2011 by Wild Bill

[pinko]

That's what these folks keep reiterating.

Pinko, are you saying this to me......or to yourself?

You don't need to answer.

I am speaking to you, betsy. I am suggesting to you that god is a figment of your imagination.

[betsy]

Funny, you talking about *other* people having anger issues. Those of us who've been here long enough recall plenty of threads where you went ballistic when you felt that the Christian faith was under attack. My favorite one was the thread with the clip from the movie Jesus Camp where you didn't just go berserk on members of this forum, but also signed up for a YouTube account so that you could fight with people who posted comments about the clip there as well.

Insecurity about your faith? hmm.

No. Just plain indignant about your mean streak, as any normal person should....regardless of religion or belief.

As usual, you distort the truth how it really happened. I am but forced to make a correction.

The original poster gave a link to you-tube. (Was that you?)

It was about a girl (quite young...maybe 8 or 9 years old?)

As I remember it, this little girl was going around to people saying something like...."Jesus loves you."

Some people became outright angry towards the girl because of this and posted nasty things about her on you-tube. The parents of the girl expressed fear/concern for their daughter.

Our debate on that topic got centered around the way people (adults) reacted towards the little girl in question.

You said, had the little girl approached you, you would've slapped her in the face! There was only a few of us who found your answer so appalling. My outraged reaction was not because you wanted to slap a little girl for saying "Jesus loves you."

My outraged reaction was because you wanted to slap a little girl for saying something so innocent....she could just as easily be selling cookies to you!

I remember your statement of wanting to physically hurt the girl...irrational statement (of a violent nature at that) is not that easy to forget.

It was surreal. It's like watching Clockwork Orange....the way you took that in and reacted!

I went on you-tube to give my opinion of what I think about the way these supposed adults were reacting towards a little girl. My heart went to the little girl...because of her age...her innocence.

I would have done the same had she been an atheist girl who's saying "there is no God."

I searched for that particular thread "Jesus Camp" but it cannot be accessed. Perhaps a formal request to Greg will make it possible....just to settle this if need be.

As for who really maliciously distorts....I think just a quick review of the discussion here, especially on the referred post numbers, is sufficient evidence enough to show who could lie so glibly.

Edited February 13, 2011 by betsy