bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I guess I am that naive... I'll anxiously await the EVIDENCE you will surely provide to back up your statement... You wouldn't just be running off at the mouth again with some anti-Canadian rhetoric, now would you? Start with your own government's propaganda, including CIDA: http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/egypt-egypte/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng Chretien loves Mubarak: http://www.daylife.com/topic/Jean_Chretien Edited January 31, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 But they are still Americans...hence you are anti-American in that context. I reserve the same right for Canadian "mindless sheep". Incorrect, in no category was I "anti" anything... Don't be reserved, say what you mean... No, but if I ever do, it will be better than what you have access to. The "No" IS your problem... That's fine by me...because I am now the topic according to some on this thread. Not with me... I don't try to speak for others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 PKP or foam is better than water. I know... He didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Incorrect, in no category was I "anti" anything... Don't be reserved, say what you mean... Then "mindless sheep" Canadians isn't anti either. The "No" IS your problem... No, it's a blessing. I like to count all those Manitoba license plates at the Mayo Clinic. Not with me... I don't try to speak for others... That's a good plan....you can hardly speak for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 No worse than Blue Jays fans. I don't follow baseball or basketball but I understand Toronto had many lean years in both sports. I remember watching baseball when Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris were in the limelight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Start with your own government's propaganda, including CIDA: http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/egypt-egypte/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng Trade and Economic Relations Canada and Egypt enjoy a strong and diverse commercial and investment relationship. Canadian merchandise exports in 2009 were valued at $639.4 million. This represents the third highest total of Canada’s exports to the Middle East and North Africa region for the year. Top export products in 2009 included: railway equipment, iron and steel, machinery, and vegetables. Exports in 2009 increased more than three times compared to 1999. Imports from Egypt in 2009 were valued at $114 million. The top products were fertilizers, textile floor coverings, fuel and oil, and woven apparel. Significant two-way investment exists with Canadian direct investment valued in the billions in the Egyptian chemicals sector. Hundreds of millions have been invested by Egypt in the telecommunications sector in Canada. Key growth sectors of interest to Canadian companies in trade and investment include: agriculture, food and beverages, information communication technology, education, forest industries, oil and gas, mining, and service industries and capital projects. June 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now yours - Trade with Egypt : 2010 NOTE: All figures are in millions of U.S. dollars on a nominal basis, not seasonally adjusted unless otherwise specified. Month Exports Imports Balance January 2010 439.2 306.5 132.7 February 2010 468.0 218.3 249.7 March 2010 633.0 174.8 458.2 April 2010 521.2 229.7 291.5 May 2010 433.7 162.0 271.6 June 2010 390.1 178.2 212.0 July 2010 527.7 135.7 391.9 August 2010 578.5 191.8 386.7 September 2010 722.6 160.9 561.7 October 2010 743.5 199.2 544.3 November 2010 587.7 148.8 438.9 TOTAL 6,045.2 2,105.9 3,939.3 http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c7290.html Egypt viewed US military aid as reward February 1, 2011 - 7:14AM .AFP Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak and his generals have viewed generous US military aid as an "untouchable" reward for keeping peace with Israel, according to leaked US documents posted by WikiLeaks. The secret diplomatic cable from 2009 underscored the deep ties between the two countries and Washington's difficult position as a week of massive street protests threatened to bring down Mubarak's regime. In a cable dated March 31, 2009, the US ambassador in Cairo writes that the annual $US1.3 billion in arms provided to Mubarak's government has proved a success over the years, preserving peace between Egypt and Israel while ensuring access for US forces. "President Mubarak and military leaders view our military assistance program as the cornerstone of our mil-mil relationship and consider the $US1.3 billion in annual FMF (foreign military finance) as 'untouchable compensation' for making and maintaining peace with Israel," said the cable disclosed by the WikiLeaks website and first reported by the British daily The Guardian. <more> Chretien loves Mubarak: http://www.daylife.com/topicJean_Chretien See that doctor ASAP... A BLOG doesn't cut it... Even an idiot would know that... Edited January 31, 2011 by GWiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Trade and Economic Relations Canada and Egypt enjoy a strong and diverse commercial and investment relationship.... You are obviously in a river called de-Nile. Your government clearly supported Mubarak's Egypt over the past 30 years. Nothing you spin can change that fact. Your country supported a "ruthless dictatorship"...same as Indonesia and many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 You are obviously in a river called de-Nile. Your government clearly supported Mubarak's Egypt over the past 30 years. Nothing you spin can change that fact. Your country supported a "ruthless dictatorship"...same as Indonesia and many others. 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Then "mindless sheep" Canadians isn't anti either. No, it's a blessing. I like to count all those Manitoba license plates at the Mayo Clinic. That's a good plan....you can hardly speak for yourself. You are obviously in a river called de-Nile. Your government clearly supported Mubarak's Egypt over the past 30 years. Nothing you spin can change that fact. Your country supported a "ruthless dictatorship"...same as Indonesia and many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 You are obviously in a river called de-Nile. Your government clearly supported Mubarak's Egypt over the past 30 years. Nothing you spin can change that fact. Your country supported a "ruthless dictatorship"...same as Indonesia and many others. ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 1. Come on old man....you can do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Come on old man....you can do it! Already done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Mubarak was a great leader for the United States and Canada. But not for Egypt itself. The west, and that includes it's citizens, like you and me, need to call even our own leaders out on this kind of corruption. The west is propping up a dictator and corrupt one at that. The people have had enough, let's support them. If we don't, I don't want to think of the outcome. Do you think Canada did not also support Mubarak? Are you really that naive? You keep thinking I am naive, and I keep showing you wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Once they start to kill Coptic Christians in Egypt...and in Tunisia...some jerk off exile returns to make sure that ISLAM plays a part in the government then we know that the door is open for great evil - I suggest we keep an eye on radical Islamofacism along with anyone that uses religion to gain power over the masses - In Egypt like anywhere else people just need more money and more justice - what's wrong with that? They do not need more GOD...God takes care of those who take care of each other...and what's this buisness of some lady leaving with a ton of gold bricks in there private plane - NO wonder the mobs are rising up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 But not for Egypt itself. The west, and that includes it's citizens, like you and me, need to call even our own leaders out on this kind of corruption. The west is propping up a dictator and corrupt one at that. The people have had enough, let's support them. If we don't, I don't want to think of the outcome. Dude, the world will not end either way. Get a grip. You keep thinking I am naive, and I keep showing you wrong. No matter who you vote for in Canada, you will be supporting US policy in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 All of the possible options are not good enough. Mubarak, 30 years of tyranny which the west supports. Freedom? ElBaradei is going to be no better. I mean, he has lived his life so long out of Egypt, can you consider him Egyptian except in name? Muslim Brotherhood, obvious not an option either. But in absence of a real leader (not like the two mentioned above) Any other options? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 ElBaradei is going to be no better. I mean, he has lived his life so long out of Egypt, can you consider him Egyptian except in name?.......Any other options? Hmmm...Michael Ignatieff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Nonsense....you are making things up on the fly. Since you're playing the denial game, let's go over the chronology of events here: 1 - In disagreement with Bob's point that the amount of support coming from the US & Canadian governments for the protestors is pathetic, you say:"I disagree....the pathetic ones are the Egyptians themselves. Live free or die." Meaning - Egyptians are pathetic because they "allowed themselves" to be ruled by a dictator. 2 - I call you out saying colourfully, that it's arrogant and ignorant to pass supreme judgement on a situation you know nothing about, either first-hand or from a historical/political perspective. 3 - You defend your statement that Egyptians are pathetic by saying you have the right to free speech (which wasn't even in dispute), and don't bother to back it up with any sort of analysis or justification. 4 - I call you outfor not backing up your "Egyptians are pathetic" statement in any sort of rational way. 5 - Then you state: "THIRTY YEARS of oppression is PATHETIC...just as I stated." which is the most justification you've given for your comment to date. Since this is the only explanation you've given, after repeatedly questioning you, we have to assume that this is the only criteria that's important to you. So what logical, rational, non-ideological conclusions can we draw from this? . . . - You think that time frame is the most important factor in determining which resistance movements are "pathetic" and which are good. - No other factors matter in evaluating the effectiveness of popular resistance movements (otherwise, you would have given other factors by now, unless you're being dishonest in your argument - but I have no control over that, and there's no way to tell), ie - politics, history, economy, demographics, geography - these do not matter. - We don't know at how many years resistance to a dictatorship goes from being good to "pathetic" but we do know that at 30 years is the minimum amount of time a population has to live under a hardline regime to be considered So we can then say that: - Any popular resistance movement can easily be judged on effectiveness to another since the only criteria used (time frame) is common to each of them. - Any popular resistance movement that took more than 30 years to despose of the regime that they were fighting against was pathetic. (ie - American Revolution, anti-communist movement in Eastern Europe, etc) What was your inane question again? Let's recap again, since you're playing dumb . . . THIRTY YEARS of oppression is PATHETIC...just as I stated. I went on to point out that the only way that you can use a time criteria as the ONLY criteria to judge a resistance movement (as you did) is if you completely ignored other factors such as history, economy, politics, demographics, etc. I pointed out this is completely irrational - to expand on it: no historian would look back at any social movement in history and just throw away those criteria when evaluating them, just the opposite - those criteria would probably be more important in explaining why things happened than "it took 40 years for the Warsaw Pact to be dissolved, those Poles and Germans are pathetic" So far, you haven't defended your rational, the only thing you have done is claim you never said it. So my question is for the fourth time - why are you only using time as a criteria in judging how "pathetic" Egyptians are - why are all other factors not relevant for you? And by extension, can we now compare popular resistance movements against this "+30=pathetic" benchmark? [ 4 > 0 You're on a roll, here you are saying that absolutely nothing you've written in this post has been off-topic. One only needs to go back one page to prove your figure of 0 wrong. If you say so. I say so according to the logic you used to evaluate Egyptians. I think it's dumb logic, but then again I didn't come up with it. If you don't believe Germans and Poles are pathetic, go ahead and rebut and tell us why they aren't but Egyptians are pathetic. But that would require a rational argument. Look....I have made it quite clear that you and your ilk are the worse kind of elitist there is, telling others what they can and can't do because of "oppression". You know damn right well what I mean....stop hiding. This is a cop-out - I'm not elitist, and you haven't actually presented an argument that I am. All you're saying is that "you're an elitist because I said so!" But prove me wrong - quote me where I've said "what they can and can't do because of oppression" because I know I haven't said anything like it - because I absolutely refuse to judge Egyptians because I have no idea what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship, and neither do you, which is my entire point about you saying they're "pathetic" I don't know how you go from reserving judgement to me saying I'm telling them what they can and can't do. But enlighten me. You pass judgement on Americans and Egyptians! How? Quote me. You can continue repeating this line, but it only makes you look like a fool if you don't back it up. No, it means I think their reality is/was pathetic. Not complicated at all. Ah, so now you've changed your semantics. Before Egyptians were pathetic because, in your words (which I've already quoted above), other popular movements deposed of dictators in less than 30 years, therefor Egyptians MUST be pathetic if they couldn't do it sooner. Now Egyptians themselves aren't pathetic, just their reality, which of course - you believe they're entirely responsible for creating (even though you support your government backing up the dictator that's been squashing their rights and embezzling money). No, I listen carefully to why they left their native country for a better life, the same as the Egyptians working the oil fields in Saudi Arabia. And why did they leave their country? What do they tell you? No, just the Queen Bee. Not even. More than 60% of Canadians feel the monarchy is outdated, and that according to a poll commissioned by a Monarchist society. I've yet to meet anyone under 35 who identifies with the monarchy. We don't even mention the queen unless she's blocking traffic for a reception. I'm not here to learn anything from the likes of you. That's nice, but then again - when was the last time you learned anything from anyone here? You already think you know more about anyone on any topic, so why would you bother to listen, right? Really? So you feel complicit as well? Shame on you for oppressing 80 million Egyptians. My country got to be the most powerful by stepping on lots of nations. Eisenhower Eisenhower's dead. Who is helping the Egyptian public to overthrow Mubarak since he came to power? No one. Instead, Europe and the US and others have been supporting him. Imagine instead of the French helping the US against the British, imagine all of Europe just helped the British - how long would the US have taken to overthrow the Brits? Would it have even happened at all? The "Founding Fathers" owned my ancestors as slaves...don't preach to me about what is pathetic or oppression. Wonderful - you're black, I'm Jewish. But we're living pretty good right now, and whatever our ancestors went through doesn't really mean we know what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship. When I hear someone talk about fleeing Vietnam as a kid by walking through the jungle to the coast and hiding in a fishing boat, I don't think "Been there, done that" My country is very diverse...more than yours. That's because you started earlier. We still have by far the world's highest immigration rate per-capita, meaning that while you might have more non-white folks, we have way more foreign-born folks per capita. This idiotic comment speaks for itself. Am I wrong? You've stated before that human rights and democratic principles are nice, but really the US is only concerned with retaining it's status as superpower, and if it can kill two birds with one stone - great. But it's not about to give up power in the name of morals or ethics. So - if you could wipe out a few million Saudis and seize the oil fields with a new nano super weapon, would you? Edited January 31, 2011 by JB Globe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The army has said it will not fire on demonstrators, and may even have chosen sides with the people against Mubarak, although they didn't say so explicitly, it's kind of the impression I got: n a statement on Monday it said "freedom of expression" was guaranteed to all citizens using peaceful means.It was the first such explicit confirmation by the army that it would not fire at demonstrators who have taken to the streets of Egypt and comes a day before before Tuesday's "march of millions" to mark the seventh day of the protests as anti-government sentiment reaches fever pitch. "The presence of the army in the streets is for your sake and to ensure your safety and wellbeing. The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," the army statement said. "Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody." The protestors only really have one demand - Go Mubarak. The rest - democracy, economic prosperity, justice - can't really happen until he's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The army has said it will not fire on demonstrators, and may even have chosen sides with the people against Mubarak, although they didn't say so explicitly, it's kind of the impression I got: The protestors only really have one demand - Go Mubarak. The rest - democracy, economic prosperity, justice - can't really happen until he's gone. Yes BUT - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 This poll gives us some insight into the motivations of the Egyptian rioters/demonstrators in the sense that Egyptians were asked certain questions about political leanings. Some potentially disturbing numbers, although unsurprising: 50% of Egyptians have a favourable view of Hamas, which as we all know is a very religious, anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, Islamic terrorist group. 30% of Egyptians have a favourable view of Hezbollah, which is also a very religious, anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, Islamic terrorist group. Of course the converse is that 66% of Egyptians have a negative view of Hezbollah. 95% of Egyptians that think Islam plays a large role in their politics think this is a good thing. While 80% of Egyptians who think Islam plays a small role in their politics think this is a bad thing. Of course there are various ways to interpret these results, which I don't feel the need to go into. Still, if we honestly examine the world the way it is, we can glean some useful information from this poll. I think this poll paints a slightly different picture than the simplistic assumption that the rioters/demonstrators are primarily motivated by secular liberal democratic values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 No...if you were paying attention, I made the remark specifically about Egypt, a modern nation in every respect save for political maturity. And everything else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hey I saw American Woman first, back off. p.s. the only thing we need fear from the US is New York Yankees fans. Trust me they are animals. You have clearly never been to Philadelphia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) So what logical, rational, non-ideological conclusions can we draw from this? . . . - You think that time frame is the most important factor in determining which resistance movements are "pathetic" and which are good. - No other factors matter in evaluating the effectiveness of popular resistance movements (otherwise, you would have given other factors by now, unless you're being dishonest in your argument - but I have no control over that, and there's no way to tell), ie - politics, history, economy, demographics, geography - these do not matter. - We don't know at how many years resistance to a dictatorship goes from being good to "pathetic" but we do know that at 30 years is the minimum amount of time a population has to live under a hardline regime to be considered Great...now we know exactly what your position is...not mine. So we can then say that: - Any popular resistance movement can easily be judged on effectiveness to another since the only criteria used (time frame) is common to each of them. - Any popular resistance movement that took more than 30 years to despose of the regime that they were fighting against was pathetic. (ie - American Revolution, anti-communist movement in Eastern Europe, etc) Again...you can say as you please. Let's recap again, since you're playing dumb . . . Let's not....the definition of pathetic is sufficient alone. So my question is for the fourth time - why are you only using time as a criteria in judging how "pathetic" Egyptians are - why are all other factors not relevant for you? And by extension, can we now compare popular resistance movements against this "+30=pathetic" benchmark? You extend way too much, to the point of having a conversation with yourself. You're on a roll, here you are saying that absolutely nothing you've written in this post has been off-topic. One only needs to go back one page to prove your figure of 0 wrong. No...since for you, I am the topic....an honor indeed. I say so according to the logic you used to evaluate Egyptians. I think it's dumb logic, but then again I didn't come up with it. If you don't believe Germans and Poles are pathetic, go ahead and rebut and tell us why they aren't but Egyptians are pathetic. But that would require a rational argument. Gee, at this point I'm beginning to think you're pathetic too. This is a cop-out - I'm not elitist, and you haven't actually presented an argument that I am. All you're saying is that "you're an elitist because I said so!" You are the typical elitist, disempowering those who you feel superior too. Egyptians had ruby slippers all along, and that is why I said their current situation is pathetic, because it is. This nation is the successor to one of the greatest civilizations the world has ever known....now it's even more pathetic. But prove me wrong - quote me where I've said "what they can and can't do because of oppression" because I know I haven't said anything like it - because I absolutely refuse to judge Egyptians because I have no idea what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship, and neither do you, which is my entire point about you saying they're "pathetic" Your guilt pangs are for you to work out by yourself. repetitive....yada...yada...yada And why did they leave their country? What do they tell you? They left Egypt for the same reasons as many other emigres....duh! Not even. More than 60% of Canadians feel the monarchy is outdated, and that according to a poll commissioned by a Monarchist society. I've yet to meet anyone under 35 who identifies with the monarchy. We don't even mention the queen unless she's blocking traffic for a reception. Irrelevant...the Canada's Head of State is the Queen. That's nice, but then again - when was the last time you learned anything from anyone here? You already think you know more about anyone on any topic, so why would you bother to listen, right? Not everyone, but certainly you. Really? So you feel complicit as well? Shame on you for oppressing 80 million Egyptians. My country got to be the most powerful by stepping on lots of nations. Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. Eisenhower's dead. So are the Pharaohs. Who is helping the Egyptian public to overthrow Mubarak since he came to power? No one. Instead, Europe and the US and others have been supporting him. Can't say Canada...can you? LOL! Imagine instead of the French helping the US against the British, imagine all of Europe just helped the British - how long would the US have taken to overthrow the Brits? Would it have even happened at all? Beats me...we are not playing make believe here. Wonderful - you're black, I'm Jewish. But we're living pretty good right now, and whatever our ancestors went through doesn't really mean we know what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship. When I hear someone talk about fleeing Vietnam as a kid by walking through the jungle to the coast and hiding in a fishing boat, I don't think "Been there, done that" The point was simply that using glorious and principled "Founding Fathers" in your simple minded retort was ill founded....get it...founded? Nevertheless, I refuse to be relegated to the rank of VICTIM by the likes of you. Same applies to the Egyptians. You have been away for a while eh? But you still have the same elitist schtick that got you in trouble before. Welcome back! That's because you started earlier. We still have by far the world's highest immigration rate per-capita, meaning that while you might have more non-white folks, we have way more foreign-born folks per capita. Per capita rate doesn't mean dick when real people are being counted. 312,000,000 > 35,000,000 Am I wrong? You've stated before that human rights and democratic principles are nice, but really the US is only concerned with retaining it's status as superpower, and if it can kill two birds with one stone - great. But it's not about to give up power in the name of morals or ethics. Yes, you are wrong....emotional....but still wrong. So - if you could wipe out a few million Saudis and seize the oil fields with a new nano super weapon, would you? No need for that....they sell the oil on the open market just like Canada, after lots of American know-how and capital investment. Edited February 1, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) You have clearly never been to Philadelphia. I have... September of '77...Cubs vs Phils at the Vet...It was Puerto Rican night(I'm not making this up,that was the promotion for the evening....)...Sat in the upper deck with my Dad... Edited February 1, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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