August1991 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) I started a thread with this OP: Note to moderators: If this topic exists already, please merge. I checked but saw nothing.If you haven't seen them, here's a link.... Unfortunately, the moderators combined my OP with a much older thread about Conservative Attack Ads. I happen to think that we should distinguish between various attack ad campaigns. And this post below has provoked me to correct the error. You reckon he doesn't want an election? Well, the preemptive strikes suggest that he intends to cause one. I certainly find them stirring. They remind me of every reason that I view the PCs with contempt. They are, to begin, mendacious to the core, and as Nicky says, insult the intelligence of very many of us. Not all of us , obviously, because the bobblehead chorus chirps along on cue... This, August: Sorry Shakey, Ignatieff does not sound like an English-Canadian. And he's certainly not a French-Canadian. So, what is he? is about as offensive as it gets. He sounds like me, August. He sounds Canadian. Crawl out of your hillbilly hole long enough to learn that the only dichotomy to 'Canadian' is 'yes' or 'no'. Molly, it is unfortunate that this thread is long and difficult to manoeuvre.So, I will start a new one to respond to you. (Moderators can do as they please but let's be honest, Attack Ads in 2011 are not like those in 2006.) ----- Like you Molly, Theodore Roosevelt also said that there were no-hyphenated Americans - only Americans. That may be how Americans view their country, but we Canadians do things differently, Molly. In Canada, we have two languages and even two legal systems. As every one knows, Quebec is different. Even Harper recognized it as a nation: "La motion: que cette Chambre reconnaisse que les Québécois forment une nation au sein d'un Canada uni." Le Devoir---- My quibble with Ignatieff is not his Russian family name. We Canadians have had leaders with Ukrainian and Haitian names, among others. My quibble is that Ignatieff is, well, no one. He's anyone to anything. He changes his opinions according to the wind. He looks good, he speaks well. He's educated. He is tall and has a full head of hair. But he's a flake. IMV Molly, the Conservative ads (circa 2011) are dead on. And both English and French Canadians know it. Edited January 23, 2011 by August1991 Quote
jbg Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 In Canada, we have two languages and even two legal systems. As every one knows, Quebec is different. Well Louisiana has a different legal system and didn't need to keep a declining language. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Posted January 23, 2011 Well Louisiana has a different legal system and didn't need to keep a declining language.Declining language? Is that like a declining religion?---- jbg, we Canadians organize our affairs differently from you Americans. Quote
jbg Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 jbg, we Canadians organize our affairs differently from you Americans.Given the separatist mess the word "organize" is kind. Sort of the way Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan "organized" our country from 1850-1861? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Given the separatist mess the word "organize" is kind. Sort of the way Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan "organized" our country from 1850-1861?jbg, if you want to talk about the US, take your discussion to another thread.He sounds like me, August. He sounds Canadian. Crawl out of your hillbilly hole long enough to learn that the only dichotomy to 'Canadian' is 'yes' or 'no'. He may sound like you but he doesn't sound like people I know, Molly. Ignatieff's not a French Canadian, and he's not an English Canadian either.Frankly, I don't know what the hell he is. Maybe he's the end result of the federal Liberal Party. ---- No way: The Liberals are too smart to die with Ignatieff. Edited January 23, 2011 by August1991 Quote
jbg Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 jbg, we Canadians organize our affairs differently from you Americans. jbg, if you want to talk about the US, take your discussion to another thread.You also brought up the U.S. Why are Canadians so prickly about any mention of our country, yet compare themselves against us regularly? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Posted January 23, 2011 You also brought up the U.S.I gave it as an example. (As I say jbg, if you want to talk about America, start another thread.) Quote
jbg Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 I gave it as an example. (As I say jbg, if you want to talk about America, start another thread.) Then why are Canadians so prickly about any mention of our country, yet compare themselves against us regularly? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Then why are Canadians so prickly about any mention of our country, yet compare themselves against us regularly?I'm not prickly about America.I started a thread about recent Conservative Attack ads. If you want to talk about America, go to another thread. (That's it; that's all. No big deal.) ---- jbg, this thread is not about you, or America. It's about Ignatieff and the Liberal Party. Edited January 23, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Battletoads Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 I fail to see any difference between these ads and their previous counterparts. Seems august just wants his own soapbox. Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
Molly Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 Like you Molly, Theodore Roosevelt also said that there were no-hyphenated Americans - only Americans. That may be how Americans view their country, but we Canadians do things differently, Molly. In Canada, we have two languages and even two legal systems. As every one knows, Quebec is different.[/url] That's a completely different subject from 'attack ads', but if you are counting, there's no good reason to stop at 2 (cultures, languages, legal systems, solitudes, worldviews, etc., etc. etc. etc.). The rest of the Canadian realities are not erased by your apparent inability to count, just as History didn't stop just because some dearly wish that it had. If Quebec is so very different, then it is different by virtue of nurturing an asinine grasp of nature of Canada. I'm neither French nor English. I don't venerate either of those two European states.. in fact my forebears left Europe, fled Europe, dumped Europe for extremely good reasons. I speak a language of convenience, and it defines nothing more meaningful than that my forebears landed in North America. And I've probably been a Canadian for decades more than you have! You have a heck of a nerve insisting that I must be happily sorted into one of two categories defined by you, based on an irrelevancy, and demonstrably, rediculously false. Your suggestion that there are only two possible categories rings very much like the apartheid classifications... I guess if I'm not English nor French, I must be coloured? UnCanadian? (Like Mr. Ignatief, who, if I'm not mistaken, has been a Canadian for at least a decade or two longer than you have, too!) Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Molly Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 So, I will start a new one to respond to you. (Moderators can do as they please but let's be honest, Attack Ads in 2011 are not like those in 2006 IMV Molly, the Conservative ads (circa 2011) are dead on. And both English and French Canadians know it. They look like reruns to me. They were offensive, and mendacious the first time by. They haven't become more truthful, or more of a credit to the Conservative character, with the passage of time. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Scotty Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 They look like reruns to me. They were offensive, and mendacious the first time by. They haven't become more truthful, or more of a credit to the Conservative character, with the passage of time. What lies are told? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Esq Posted January 23, 2011 Report Posted January 23, 2011 I really hope Canadians arn't dumb enough to based their votes on ads made by the opposing party. Quote
Molly Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 What lies are told? I was going to answer that in detail- then found that the ads had been removed from the easily access links I had started with, so I was about to go searching.... and then I thought, why should I do that anyway? Seriously, if you don't understand what is mendacious about those attack ads, it isn't for lack of someone to explain where the twisting, weaseling effort to mislead resides. It's because you want to be lied to that way, and intend to defend the falsehoods by hook or crook, maybe even to the death. So I'm saying that if you can swallow 'em, and so sincerely desire to swallow 'em, then have at 'er. They're all yours. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 I was going to answer that in detail- then found that the ads had been removed from the easily access links I had started with, so I was about to go searching.... and then I thought, why should I do that anyway? Seriously, if you don't understand what is mendacious about those attack ads, it isn't for lack of someone to explain where the twisting, weaseling effort to mislead resides. It's because you want to be lied to that way, and intend to defend the falsehoods by hook or crook, maybe even to the death. So I'm saying that if you can swallow 'em, and so sincerely desire to swallow 'em, then have at 'er. They're all yours. In this nation, attack ads are just taking root. They have been a valuable tool down south for almost ever. Things are changing up here slowly but surely, and when that happens we often emulate what our American brothers and sisters do. Like it or not, that is a reality we must face. As long as we remain conservative, that is the way it will be. When we become more liberal in our thinking then the US will emulate us. In either case if we go too far off the reservation the US will neither emulate or support us. Which is why the entire concept is so funny in the first place. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) In this nation, attack ads are just taking root. They have been a valuable tool down south for almost ever. Things are changing up here slowly but surely, and when that happens we often emulate what our American brothers and sisters do. Like it or not, that is a reality we must face. As long as we remain conservative, that is the way it will be. When we become more liberal in our thinking then the US will emulate us. In either case if we go too far off the reservation the US will neither emulate or support us. Which is why the entire concept is so funny in the first place. If we can avoid third-party fundraising and advertising fiascos like Moveon.org and the swift gunboat debacle, we might be spared what goes on in the US - to a large degree. I believe the Canada Elections Act puts limits on third-party advertising - cumulatively at the National level (about $200K) but also at the indvidual riding level (about $4K). Third party ads can be devastating - while at the same time allowing the Political Party to distance themselves from their insensitivity. Here in Canada, Political Parties have to be careful about the timing and tone of their messages because they will "own" whatever perceptions they create. I have a feeling the Conservatives are getting the hardball messages out early so that if and when an election is called, they can take the high-road and concentrate on policies and accomplishments - because their hardball messages will have already reached the voters. Edited January 24, 2011 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
scribblet Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 Good post.. I can't say I've seen anything 'mendacious' in the ads, well, except maybe the old Liberal ad about 'guns in the streets' and so on LOL Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 If we can avoid third-party fundraising and advertising fiascos like Moveon.org and the swift gunboat debacle, we might be spared what goes on in the US - to a large degree. I believe the Canada Elections Act puts limits on third-party advertising - cumulatively at the National level (about $200K) but also at the indvidual riding level (about $4K). Third party ads can be devastating - while at the same time allowing the Political Party to distance themselves from their insensitivity. Here in Canada, Political Parties have to be careful about the timing and tone of their messages because they will "own" whatever perceptions they create. I have a feeling the Conservatives are getting the hardball messages out early so that if and when an election is called, they can take the high-road and concentrate on policies and accomplishments - because their hardball messages will have already reached the voters. Good call, I agree with you. Smart move for Steve, but perhaps not smart enough to get the job done. We will have to see how Iggy deals with the situation. It seems likely we are talking spring election, but don't overlook the possibility of a fall election. I would say a summer election is the least likely outcome of this latest gambit conducted by the PM. Quote
August1991 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Posted January 26, 2011 That's a completely different subject from 'attack ads', but if you are counting, there's no good reason to stop at 2 (cultures, languages, legal systems, solitudes, worldviews, etc., etc. etc. etc.). The rest of the Canadian realities are not erased by your apparent inability to count, just as History didn't stop just because some dearly wish that it had. If Quebec is so very different, then it is different by virtue of nurturing an asinine grasp of nature of Canada. But people in Quebec speak French.I'm neither French nor English. I don't venerate either of those two European states.. in fact my forebears left Europe, fled Europe, dumped Europe for extremely good reasons. I speak a language of convenience, and it defines nothing more meaningful than that my forebears landed in North America.It may be a language of convenience, but it happens to be English.For other Canadians, the language of convenience is French. And I've probably been a Canadian for decades more than you have!Let's ignore that question, Molly - in particular if we open up to ancestry. I think that you and I can agree that if you've been here longer, you don't get more votes - moral or otherwise. I too would agree that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.You have a heck of a nerve insisting that I must be happily sorted into one of two categories defined by you, based on an irrelevancy, and demonstrably, rediculously false. Your suggestion that there are only two possible categories rings very much like the apartheid classifications... I guess if I'm not English nor French, I must be coloured? UnCanadian? (Like Mr. Ignatief, who, if I'm not mistaken, has been a Canadian for at least a decade or two longer than you have, too!)I didn't do the sorting. Our Canadian Constitution did it. We have two official languages in Canada and moreover, our Constitution even recognizes specific religions. Imagine!---- In Canada, we are not all the same. We are different, but in sometimes similar ways. To put this in terms you may understand, there are left-handed and right-handed people in this world. Canada's constitution recognizes these groups. Quote
Smallc Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) But people in Quebec speak French. All of them? No. A large number of people in Ontario and New Brunswick also speak French. More importantly though - and? So what? Edited January 26, 2011 by Smallc Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 In this nation, attack ads are just taking root. They have been a valuable tool down south for almost ever. Things are changing up here slowly but surely, and when that happens we often emulate what our American brothers and sisters do. Like it or not, that is a reality we must face. Why? Dare to do something Canadian instead. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) UnCanadian? (Like Mr. Ignatief, who, if I'm not mistaken, has been a Canadian for at least a decade or two longer than you have, too!)IMV, Ignatieff is unCanadian because he does not speak English or French like any Canadian that I know, and he doesn't even seem to understand anyone here. Worse, he makes bland generalities.Pierre Trudeau didn't speak English like English Canadians, and he didn't usually speak French like most Quebecers. (Although every so often, he'd launch a good phrase and everyone would laugh.) Ignatieff cannot do that in English or French. But Trudeau was connected to Canadians in a way that Ignatieff is not. When Trudeau retired from federal politics, he didn't move to a dacha in the south of France. He walked the streets of Montreal. I saw him going for lunch in a food court. (And believe me, I'm no fan of Trudeau.) If Ignatieff loses the next election, I think we can all agree that he will not stay in Canada. All of them? No. A large number of people in Ontario and New Brunswick also speak French.More importantly though - and? So what? You are correct, Smallc. It matters because Canada has two official languages. Edited January 26, 2011 by August1991 Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 Why? Dare to do something Canadian instead. Researchers conducted focus groups viewing the antithesis of attack ads, the make nice ads. The copy read: "Unlike most Canadians, Michael Ignatieff spent a lot of time abroad learning, becoming smarter, becoming a better man. He even outgrew his first wife...Consider voting for Ignatieff, he is a lot smarter than you and his first wife" The researchers concluded that attack ads were nicer. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
August1991 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Posted January 26, 2011 In this nation, attack ads are just taking root. They have been a valuable tool down south for almost ever. Things are changing up here slowly but surely, and when that happens we often emulate what our American brothers and sisters do.Gimme a break. The federal Liberals have been employing attack ads for decades.I'd even argue that federal Liberals originated attack ads before any American. I'm no defender of John Diefenbaker but he was subject to horrendous attack ads. Jerry, attack ads are sometimes in the eye of the beholder. We are inclined to think that the little guy must attack the big guy. If the big guy attacks the little guy, it's like someone squashing a mosquito. It's not an attack. It's a squash. ---- Returning to the OP, I happen to think that Conservative attack ads (circa 2011) are effective. In French and English. Quote
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