Wild Bill Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Gee! Lets have a poll about whether people want to live under a relatively modern and liberal society, or a mythical state that doesnt exist and never will! Exactly! Most people in any society tend not to be all that political. To many Palestinians, Israeli society looks to have far more individual freedom and protection than that of most neighbouring Arab states. Once again, it boils down to access to blue jeans and rock and roll! Many people will not voluntarily choose to live in some fundamentalist Islamic police state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 How am I pleading the 5th? Same way you're not answering the question yet again. That's ok. I understand why you're not answering it, thus the reference to pleading the fifth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 So apparently your answer is to plead the fifth? Beats me. Apparently she thinks youre trying to avoid incriminating yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) How am I pleading the 5th? By not answering a post/thread in due time? If that is the case, we all do it here. Point of order....Canadians do not typically plead the 5th. That would be Charter Sections 11c and 13. Edited January 15, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Really? how interesting...where did I say that 35% was a majority...but since you trod in it...35% is a majority of those who have decided. You need to work on a lot of things.... you're an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyStone Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 The poll has value because Jeruslaem as a capital of a Palsestian state won't fly if a majority of Arabs would rather stay Israeli.. Why is that? Israel will only agree to a Palestinian state if they can get rid of all the dirty Ay-Rabs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 There's so much false information and pure ignorance in this thread I won't even bother addressing it. As the resident expert on this issue I'll take on the OP. It's old news that a large portion of Arabs in Jerusalem who self-identify as "Palestinian" do not wish to lose their Israeli citizenship. They are terrified that in the event of a Palestinian state being established, they may have their Israeli citizenship revoked and replaced by citizenships with the new Palestinian state. There are several reasons for this. Primarily it is a materialistic motivation. They know that a new Palestinian state will not be able to provide them with the things they have grown accustomed to in Israel. Materialistically this includes health care, educational opportunities, employment opportunities, decent infrastructure for transportation, welfare and social security assistance, and many other components that would take too long to list. They know that the Palestinian government and society simply isn't capable, at least at this time, of providing them what they have become used to in Israel. There are also several political dimensions. They know that a new Palestinian state will not provide them with the social, political, and religious freedoms that are provided to them and protected in Israel. They also know that a Palestinian state will be more dangerous and violent, for reasons that the ignorant will refer to as "racism". They don't trust the Palestinian security infrastructure to protect them from violence and theft, and they know the problems with Arab culture more than all the ignorant leftists who purport the lie that all peoples are the same at their cores. Islamic interests will have a huge influence and success in shaping the laws of their land - they know better than anyone else the disasters this will lead to. Secondarily, they have nothing to lose by having Israeli citizenship, and everything to gain. A future Palestinian state will not require its citizens to rescind their Israeli citizenships, as they want to keep their political presence and power in Israel. They want to increase their influence in Israel, not reduce it. In their view, the more Arabs voting in this country the better. This is the primary way through which they advance their anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist agenda of deceit and hatred. Lastly, and this is a question that none of the anti-Semitic vermin will answer, is why do Arabs not wish to be a part of a future Palestinian state? M.Dancer has already asked this question, and many of us know the answer, but the anti-Semites refuse to even acknowledge the question. The question is simple - if self-determination is what the Palestinians are pursuing, then why do they not wish to actualize it? The backbone of the anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist rhetoric from the left-wing vermin is that Israel denies basic national rights to an oppressed people known as the "Palestinians". All we hear, day after day and decade and decade, is that Israeli military occupation of the dispossessed and victimized Palestinians is the only thing standing between this legitimate nation and their collective rights to independence and self-determination. Beyond that, the vermin on the left have been spreading decades of lies about the Jewish majority oppressing the Arab minority in Israel, and how cruel we are to the Arab citizens of our country. So we find ourselves here, considering an independent Palestinian state as the vehicle through which the Palestinians can realize their destiny, and what do the Arabs say? No thanks, we don't want to be a part of that country even if it doesn't require us moving an inch. We don't want our towns and neighbourhoods being integrated into a future Palestinian and being places under Palestinian sovereignty. We want to remain Israeli citizens. Listening to the pro-terrorist anti-Semitic vermin, you'd think that all Arabs in Israel are oppressed and discriminated against, hated and assaulted by "right-wing Jewish settlers" on a daily basis, being denied basic services while the Jewish citizens have everything they could ever ask for and always go to the front of the line in banks and at the licensing bureau... The reason the Arabs of Jerusalem, by and large, wish to remain Israeli citizens despite the constant shouts for "Free Palestine!" is obvious. This reality completely destroys the house of cards built by the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists of Arab suffering in Israel and wishes from emancipation from Jewish occupation. M.Dancer, you can keep asking the question, and you'll keep getting non-answers and evasion. These liars cannot reconcile their claims of Arab desires for independence and emancipation from oppression with the outright rejection of so many Arab towards the very vehicle of their self-determination: Palestinian statehood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 But why would they want citizenship is the aparteid state.. oh maybe because...? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/many-jerusalem-palestinians-would-prefer-israeli-citizenship-after-peace-deal/article1869953/ Personally, I think they should apply... From what I understand, Palestinians living in occupied territories are stuck in quasi-prison camp, with walls and security checkpoints restricting travel within the territories. And, with the absence of a real economy is it a genuine comparison? The article makes it sound like they want to convert to Judaism or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 The article makes it sound like they want to convert to Judaism or something. Here's what the article actually says: Respondents who chose Israeli citizenship cited freedom of movement, higher income and Israeli health insurance as the reasons behind their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 They don't trust the Palestinian security infrastructure to protect them from violence and theft, and they know the problems with Arab culture more than all the ignorant leftists who purport the lie that all peoples are the same at their cores. No one claims that all "peoples are the same at their cores"; the claim is that people, by and large, are the same at their cores. This idea, which everyone who is not provincially narrow-minded understands intuitively as a truism, is also at least implied (if not explicit) by all major religions, including your own; so it's not some reflexive habit of the "leftists" which you screech about like a broken record, but is a commonly-held notion of centrists and religious conservatives as well. Secondarily, they have nothing to lose by having Israeli citizenship, and everything to gain. A future Palestinian state will not require its citizens to rescind their Israeli citizenships, as they want to keep their political presence and power in Israel. They want to increase their influence in Israel, not reduce it. In their view, the more Arabs voting in this country the better. This is the primary way through which they advance their anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist agenda of deceit and hatred. Lastly, and this is a question that none of the anti-Semitic vermin will answer, is why do Arabs not wish to be a part of a future Palestinian state? M.Dancer has already asked this question, and many of us know the answer, but the anti-Semites refuse to even acknowledge the question. The question is simple - if self-determination is what the Palestinians are pursuing, then why do they not wish to actualize it? The backbone of the anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist rhetoric from the left-wing vermin is that Israel denies basic national rights to an oppressed people known as the "Palestinians". All we hear, day after day and decade and decade, is that Israeli military occupation of the dispossessed and victimized Palestinians is the only thing standing between this legitimate nation and their collective rights to independence and self-determination. Beyond that, the vermin on the left have been spreading decades of lies about the Jewish majority oppressing the Arab minority in Israel, and how cruel we are to the Arab citizens of our country. So we find ourselves here, considering an independent Palestinian state as the vehicle through which the Palestinians can realize their destiny, and what do the Arabs say? No thanks, we don't want to be a part of that country even if it doesn't require us moving an inch. We don't want our towns and neighbourhoods being integrated into a future Palestinian and being places under Palestinian sovereignty. We want to remain Israeli citizens. Listening to the pro-terrorist anti-Semitic vermin, you'd think that all Arabs in Israel are oppressed and discriminated against, hated and assaulted by "right-wing Jewish settlers" on a daily basis, being denied basic services while the Jewish citizens have everything they could ever ask for and always go to the front of the line in banks and at the licensing bureau... The reason the Arabs of Jerusalem, by and large, wish to remain Israeli citizens despite the constant shouts for "Free Palestine!" is obvious. This reality completely destroys the house of cards built by the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists of Arab suffering in Israel and wishes from emancipation from Jewish occupation. Take a breath. Or get a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 No one claims that all "peoples are the same at their cores"; the claim is that people, by and large, are the same at their cores. This idea, which everyone who is not provincially narrow-minded understands intuitively as a truism, is also at least implied (if not explicit) by all major religions, including your own; so it's not some reflexive habit of the "leftists" which you screech about like a broken record, but is a commonly-held notion of centrists and religious conservatives as well. Take a breath. Or get a life. This from self proclaimed "resident expert on this issue" he's a real humble guy isn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 This from self proclaimed "resident expert on this issue" he's a real humble guy isn't he? Oh, sure, it must be nice to know everything about everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Here's what the article actually says: Respondents who chose Israeli citizenship cited freedom of movement, higher income and Israeli health insurance as the reasons behind their choice. Exactly! Why should it be a surprise that many people aren't happy living in a place with an imploded economy and no freedom of movement. But the article doesn't mention that Israel is in no way going to allow more Arab citizens of their country. If anything, they are trying to change laws ans expel Israeli Arabs that they have now, so it's a moot point anyway. If peace is actually possible, and a viable Palestinian state could exist, then there would be less interest in moving to Israel. And, as time goes on, the chances of peace seem to get slimmer and slimmer. The secular, democratic constituency in Israel is shrinking and losing influence to the religious nuts. It seems that the decades-long conflict has led to exodus of many secular Jews from Israel, and replaced by orthodox zealots, who want all the land....including the occupied territories. I don't mean to be drifting off topic, but I have no interest in starting my own Israel/Palestine thread. But with all of the Israel threads that pop up in the Rest of the World forum, I'm surprised there isn't one mentioning this recent National Post article, about the internal turmoil caused by the growing Ultra Orthodox community. Maybe someone who's been there can explain to me how these Haredim get to live on welfare, and are free from military service in a nation that even has a military draft for young women. In the West, we are used to thinking of Israel as a western, secular democratic state surrounded by Arab Muslims. But, outside of Tel Aviv, how much of Israel is really secular? And is this just becoming a fight to the death between two theocracies? If it is, why is our government putting all of its support behind the Israeli side at a time like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Exactly! Why should it be a surprise that many people aren't happy living in a place with an imploded economy and no freedom of movement. But the article doesn't mention that Israel is in no way going to allow more Arab citizens of their country. If anything, they are trying to change laws ans expel Israeli Arabs that they have now, so it's a moot point anyway. If peace is actually possible, and a viable Palestinian state could exist, then there would be less interest in moving to Israel. And, as time goes on, the chances of peace seem to get slimmer and slimmer. The secular, democratic constituency in Israel is shrinking and losing influence to the religious nuts. It seems that the decades-long conflict has led to exodus of many secular Jews from Israel, and replaced by orthodox zealots, who want all the land....including the occupied territories. I don't mean to be drifting off topic, but I have no interest in starting my own Israel/Palestine thread. But with all of the Israel threads that pop up in the Rest of the World forum, I'm surprised there isn't one mentioning this recent National Post article, about the internal turmoil caused by the growing Ultra Orthodox community. Maybe someone who's been there can explain to me how these Haredim get to live on welfare, and are free from military service in a nation that even has a military draft for young women. In the West, we are used to thinking of Israel as a western, secular democratic state surrounded by Arab Muslims. But, outside of Tel Aviv, how much of Israel is really secular? And is this just becoming a fight to the death between two theocracies? If it is, why is our government putting all of its support behind the Israeli side at a time like this? I'll gladly explain it later, but I'm just low on patience for that subject at the moment. Double-standards towards the ultra-orthodox and military service go all the day to Ben-Gurion, and it's the letter of the law in Israel. You certainly are painting a false image of Israel as being "run by religious nuts". That description can be applied to the vast majority of Arab/Muslim governance. We certainly do have some problems with the ultra-orthodox in a broad sense, but as I already said, I'll explain it later. Secularism is a little subjective, and depending on how it the term is utilized, I certainly would not secularism as some virtue to which Israel should aspire. I consider myself secular, but that doesn't me I'm like a Goy. I don't renounce religion, my history, or my culture in order to blend in with the Goyim so that they will accept me. If that's our ideal, and it most certainly is NOT, then Israel's purpose is virtually non-existent. An observation towards Jack Weber, the term "Goy" isn't disparaging. I certainly didn't use the term in a disparaging manner. It's a simple truth, connected Jewish people with a strong sense of Jewish identity (yours truly), will more than likely be many times more knowledgeable than a half-interested Goy such as yourself. Why is this surprising or offensive? It's something we're affected by, involved with, and deeply care about. You are completely disconnected, completely uninvolved, and you don't give a damn about this "pile of rocks". Towards bloodyminded, as expected, you've completely ignored everything I've said. One-liner attempts at being witty don't change the realities I've laid out. With respect to my self-declared "resident expert" title, I stand by it. Do you seriously think you're nearly as informed as I am with respect to anything Israeli, Jewish, or Palestinian? I could make much stronger arguments in support of the Palestinian cause than you and all the other terrorist-apologist anti-Zionists in here, because I know the narrative and have studied it for over a decade. The passing interest you may have in this issue can't even come close to how much I know about this subject given my deep interest and connection to it since childhood. Don't be offended or insecure, that's just how it is. You are in no position to enlighten me on any issues relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict. I've read more books, more articles, attended more lectures and seminars, had more conversations, seen more videos, and everything else in between relating this issue. Does that really come as such a shock to you? Lastly, I never claimed to know everything about everything. I'm constantly learning more and consuming information. What I do know for certain, however, is that my level of knowledge and understanding of this subject far exceeds virtually everyone in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Towards bloodyminded, as expected, you've completely ignored everything I've said. One-liner attempts at being witty don't change the realities I've laid out. Oh, get out of my face with your self-righteous nonsense. You produce rapid-fire hate-screeds about "leftist vermin" and "anti-semites" and "terrorist apologists" (like myself, you say); and then you expect...what? A nod of agreement for points well taken? They're not well taken. You're a hateful liar and a moral relativist. And no doubt proud of that, too. And as if these ugly opinions (which are yours, bob, not mine...perhaps you are the anti-semite here? Food for thought, bob, you anti-semite)...you also call me an "anti-Zionist." However, I'm not an anti-Zionist. I have offerred--and this is an exact number--precisely zero critiques--or even mentions--of Zionism. (I challenge you to find one...just one! if you cannot, then you are openly conceding that you are pulling critiques of other posters--like myself--out of your sanctimonious little ass. In advance, I appreciate your concession, Bob. That is to say, you are demonstrably wrong.) So, in response to your remarks about how I am vermin, an anti-semite, an anti-Zionist, and a terrorist apologist: I humbly invite you to peform a difficult and potentially dangerous sex act upon your own person. Enjoy. Edited January 16, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 I'll gladly explain it later, but I'm just low on patience for that subject at the moment. Double-standards towards the ultra-orthodox and military service go all the day to Ben-Gurion, and it's the letter of the law in Israel. You certainly are painting a false image of Israel as being "run by religious nuts". That description can be applied to the vast majority of Arab/Muslim governance. We certainly do have some problems with the ultra-orthodox in a broad sense, but as I already said, I'll explain it later. I may have a wrong impression, but the stories about Orthodox leaders demanding women be removed from, or given segregated seating in theaters, or women wearing miniskirts being physically assaulted by Orthodox men on buses or on city streets in Jerusalem, gives an outsider the impression that this place is going to look like Iran or Saudi Arabia in a few years. The government will really have to do something about the exemption from military service sometime though. I'm surprised all of the people who have been drafted into military service during their youth are willing to put up with free riders. Secularism is a little subjective, and depending on how it the term is utilized, I certainly would not secularism as some virtue to which Israel should aspire. I consider myself secular, but that doesn't me I'm like a Goy. I don't renounce religion, my history, or my culture in order to blend in with the Goyim so that they will accept me. If that's our ideal, and it most certainly is NOT, then Israel's purpose is virtually non-existent. Isn't there an inevitable conflict between having an open democratic society, and a nation for one ethnic group and religion? Before the Six Day War, when Arabs only made up 10% of the population, it may have been possible to do both; but when Arab Israelis grow too large in number, it's not possible to have a Jewish state, and a democratic state at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) I may have a wrong impression, but the stories about Orthodox leaders demanding women be removed from, or given segregated seating in theaters, or women wearing miniskirts being physically assaulted by Orthodox men on buses or on city streets in Jerusalem, gives an outsider the impression that this place is going to look like Iran or Saudi Arabia in a few years. The government will really have to do something about the exemption from military service sometime though. I'm surprised all of the people who have been drafted into military service during their youth are willing to put up with free riders. Isn't there an inevitable conflict between having an open democratic society, and a nation for one ethnic group and religion? Before the Six Day War, when Arabs only made up 10% of the population, it may have been possible to do both; but when Arab Israelis grow too large in number, it's not possible to have a Jewish state, and a democratic state at the same time. We've certainly had ridiculous and obscene events in Israel with our ultra-orthodox demographic. It almost exclusively happens in Jerusalem. We've had orthodox men physically harassing women walking through their neighbourhoods who are deemed to be dressed immodestly. We've also had Haredim lying in front of moving cars in order to protest a publicly-run parking lot from operating on Shabbat. We've also had "ushers" harass women for sitting on "the wrong side of the bus". Yes, we have these absurdities. And yes, the government has generally been extremely weak in its response to this craziness. Still, these events are few and far between. They are a problem, but they are an infinitesimally small problem when compared to other threats facing Israel. Rest assured, our country is not moving towards the brink of insanity as is common among the Arabs and Muslims, although the extremely high ultra-orthodox birthrate is a cause for concern. As I said earlier, there are a myriad of problems with this population at a broad level that we can talk about later, including their underperformance in education, general exemption from national service, higher representation in unemployment statistics and abuse of welfare and social assistance, and generally absurd political associations. I assure you I'll give you good insight soon. They're big issues with big histories and big explanations. As far as the "one ethnic group" statement, it's important to remember that the Jewish people are a very broad group. We're not homogenous with respect to most issues (although most of us agree on one thing - we want to survive). This country is composed of over 20% non-Jews, so it's always a difficult issue balancing the country's Jewish character and the rights of the non-Jewish population. It's difficult, but it's done reasonably well in Israel - at least so far. Edited January 17, 2011 by Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 you're an idiot. Thanks for that well thought out admission of error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Majority means over 50%, 35% is not a majority. If 35%is a majority, then Harper has always had a majority government. Incorrect as always. 50.01% is a majority and no where did I say 35% was a majority. I did say that 35% is a lot bigger than 30%... Please try and pay attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Why is that? Israel will only agree to a Palestinian state if they can get rid of all the dirty Ay-Rabs? Are you a racist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Incorrect as always. 50.01% is a majority and no where did I say 35% was a majority. I did say that 35% is a lot bigger than 30%... Please try and pay attention. you said majority of arabs would rather become israeli. why do you continue to make yourself look like an idiot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 you said majority of arabs would rather become israeli. You think I said that, but you don't think very well. Try reading again what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 You think I said that, but you don't think very well. Try reading again what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. this is what you wrote, time waster: The poll has value because Jeruslaem as a capital of a Palsestian state won't fly if a majority of Arabs would rather stay Israeli.. in the poll that you have posted, 35% of those polled in east jerusalem expressed that they would rather stay israeli if a peace deal is reached and a palestinian state is formed. 35% is not majority. it's very simple. it's not what i think, it's about what you've written. i know you don't care about your dignity, but c'mon, you need to just accept that you've made a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 this is what you wrote, time waster: The poll has value because Jeruslaem as a capital of a Palsestian state won't fly if a majority of Arabs would rather stay Israeli.. in the poll that you have posted, 35% of those polled in east jerusalem expressed that they would rather stay israeli if a peace deal is reached and a palestinian state is formed. 35% is not majority. it's very simple. it's not what i think, it's about what you've written. i know you don't care about your dignity, but c'mon, you need to just accept that you've made a mistake. Boy are you thick... Where did I say that 35% is a majority? Are you really this stupid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 In the future, Bud will come to terms with an undivided Jerusalem and the daunting conjunction known as the dreaded "if"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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