Many Jerusalem Palestinians would prefer Israeli citizenship after pea

[Bob]

Those "commonalities" disappear depending on the gene you pick.

My link

Like I said if races really existed there would be independent ways of verifying that and coming up with the same races, there aren't. In addition to that if there really were biological races the distinctions would be clear. Here's the problem often times biologists can't even be sure if a to animals are the same species or not, sure it's obvious when you look at rhino's and dogs, but it get's a lot more complicated when the animals are closely related. For example for the longest time there was huge debate, and still is to a degree, whether dogs where a new species. Currently they are classified as a sub-species of wolf. With us it's even more difficult, being that we are a sub-species Homo Sapien Sapien. Further sub-dividing that grouping biologically is pretty much impossible because human beings are so genetically homogeneous, more so then most other mammalian species.

Another problem is there is no common accepted definition of race in the scientific community, note that there are also no commonly accepted definitions for words population, species, and sub-species. But while population, species, and sub-species are all accepted in the scientific community race has fallen out of use.

ETA Perhaps ethnicity would be a better word to use instead of race, it is commonly defined as a group of people who's member's identify with each other and share ancestry, culture, religion, and language. (though one doesn't necessarily have to share all of these things to belong to that group)

I won't disagree with you, I think the concept of race is largely useless. As I said, there are some genetic commonalities among certain groups - this may or may be important depending on what we're trying to examine. In the big scheme of things, however, it's unimportant... especially considering the concept of Jewish identity.

[Jack Weber]

You act as if our independence and self-determination is some sort of temporary phenomenon. Independence and self-determination certainly do require statehood, and more importantly, an advanced army. We don't ignore moral considerations, but we do balance them against our basic national rights and survival if and when they come into conflict. We are certainly different than others in many ways, and that is why we choose to live among one another to continue the preservation of our heritage and way of life. Basically, we're not going back into the gas chambers while the entire world looks the other way.

Get tired all you want, I'm just laying out reality for you.

You mean the " reality" of a card carrying member of the Israel Uber Alles Cabal,like yourself?

You are as irrelevant as the other side of the same loony tunes coin that says Israel has treated Arabs horribly and (enter the name of Islamofascist organization here) is fairly justified in the murder they perpetrate.

The type that claims "moral considerations" and then calles non-Jews the perjorative "Goyim"?

You really do think like Begin,don't you?

I don't mean the treatment of Islamofascists because most here,assuming they see what those types are all about,really could'nt care less about them...

I mean the Israel Uber Alles Beginites who actually think they are some sort of master form of humanity,like Begin did when talking to Jimmy Carter at Camp David...

Enjoy your pile of rocks,Bobby...

And tell us when you think the REAL killing is going to start...Because then Christians...er..Goyim...,such as myself,can see the return of the Messiah on the horizon...

Edited January 24, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Bob]

I don't know what Uber Alles Cabal means, nor do I care. For some reason you seem to say that every time you direct a post at me. You also seem to think it's funny to continue referring to Israel as "pile of rocks".

Lastly, the term "Goyim" isn't a pejorative terms. Literally, it is the plural of "Goy", which means "nation". It's just a term for non-Jews, and I'm not using it in a disparaging manner. You should check your hypersensitivity at the door, it doesn't look good on you.

[bloodyminded]

The dicitonary lists the term as being potentially both neutral and pejorative. Personally, I have never heard it used in a way that is clearly pejorative.

[Oleg Bach]

I have a Jewish land lord..who does the biding of a couple of old and ruthless Jewish ladies that own property along Queen Street...every month I hand over a grand to their runner....Howard what's his name...NOW and I will be stero-typical about the attitude of some Jews...these louts simply will not buy a gallon of paint...my apartment is over a hundred years old and run down....I assume that the problem Israel have dealing with Palestine is that the Jews are simply cheap .....so I guess if you are a Palestinian you might get more out of the Israelis if you become one of them - I see the angle....kind of like an honouray Jewish thing...smart.

[Bob]

The dicitonary lists the term as being potentially both neutral and pejorative. Personally, I have never heard it used in a way that is clearly pejorative.

How about, "Haha, look at those dumb goyim paying full-price!"?

[bloodyminded]

I have a Jewish land lord..who does the biding of a couple of old and ruthless Jewish ladies that own property along Queen Street...every month I hand over a grand to their runner....Howard what's his name...NOW and I will be stero-typical about the attitude of some Jews...these louts simply will not buy a gallon of paint...my apartment is over a hundred years old and run down.

These stereotypes are quite nicely answered, in my view, by the episode of "The Sopranos" in which Tony owed Hersch a large sum of money...and Hersch finally, rather delicately, brought the subject up.

Tony, quite upset, began making lots of little "jokes" about greedy Jews.

The irony being that nobody is greedier than Tony himself. But when a Jew is greedy, it takes on a different colour.

Which group do many people see as more threatening: a group of white kids listening to gangsta rap, or a group of black kids listening to exactly the same music...doing exactly the same thing?

[bloodyminded]

How about, "Haha, look at those dumb goyim paying full-price!"?

Well, the term still wouldn't bother me, but I'd consider the mockers to be insufferably rude.

[Jack Weber]

I don't know what Uber Alles Cabal means, nor do I care. For some reason you seem to say that every time you direct a post at me. You also seem to think it's funny to continue referring to Israel as "pile of rocks".

Lastly, the term "Goyim" isn't a pejorative terms. Literally, it is the plural of "Goy", which means "nation". It's just a term for non-Jews, and I'm not using it in a disparaging manner. You should check your hypersensitivity at the door, it doesn't look good on you.

And you should check your Beginite Israel Uber Alles crapola at the door,along with the other nutty group you simply mirror...The Friends of Hamas crowd...

Two sides of the same nutjob coin...

As always,Bobby...Enjoy your pile of Mediteranean rocks...

[Bob]

The dicitonary lists the term as being potentially both neutral and pejorative. Personally, I have never heard it used in a way that is clearly pejorative.

The dictionary is wrong. The term is only disparaging if said disparagingly. Is "white people" disparaging? Obviously not. But if I said something like, "...look at them dumb white folks, holdin' down the black man!", it'd come across in a different light.

That's the point I was trying to make with my earlier example of a disparaging way to use the term "Goy" or "Goyim". It isn't inherently disparaging. Trust me, I know what the word means.

[bloodyminded]

The dictionary is wrong. The term is only disparaging if said disparagingly. Is "white people" disparaging? Obviously not. But if I said something like, "...look at them dumb white folks, holdin' down the black man!", it'd come across in a different light.

That's the point I was trying to make with my earlier example of a disparaging way to use the term "Goy" or "Goyim". It isn't inherently disparaging. Trust me, I know what the word means.

I'm not arguing the point.

[Bob]

I'm not arguing the point.

I understand, I just wanted to clarify for others.

[M.Dancer]

The dictionary is wrong. The term is only disparaging if said disparagingly. Is "white people" disparaging? Obviously not. But if I said something like, "...look at them dumb white folks, holdin' down the black man!", it'd come across in a different light.

That's the point I was trying to make with my earlier example of a disparaging way to use the term "Goy" or "Goyim". It isn't inherently disparaging. Trust me, I know what the word means.

We have also appropriated, liberated the word, defanging it and claiming it as our own. Often in Legions or plumbing stores you will hear young men greet each other with calls of " yo, my goy.." or " Chadwick, you are one crazy goy"...

[dre]

The dictionary is wrong

Quote of the year.

[Rue]

Goy is simply Yiddish for one from outside the ghetto and goyim is the plural of it. When we Jews use it we might use it derogatorily or simply as an alternative word to "gentile".

The word itself does not automatically make it negative or insulting, the context in which it is used does and that is why the dictionary can only suggest the possible meanings it could have depending on the contexts in which it is used. There is no one way to use it.

What I can say and any Jew can tell you is if we use the word goy its almost always used interchangeably for gentile and particularly in a context where we feel someone's not being Jewish makes them blind to something culturally all Jews would find obvious.

Laughingly the only gentile I know on this forum who uses goy properly in a sort of absurd tongue and cheek way is Oleg Bach.

Seriously though if I were to use the word the way we use it I would say it is a very goy thing for a goy to think we use the word goy simply to mean we hate all non Jews.

Get it? If you read back the last sentence its not explosive or derogatory just saying we think someone can't understand our perspective because they are not making the effort or just can't get it.

We use it usually in response to someone who just doesn't get something cultural about us or says something very ignorant or discriminatory of our religion or culture.

Simply using it as an insult would make no sense. It needs a context to attach to. Its not like the N word which is so explosive now it can never be used by non blacks. Different history, different context in how its used and in Yiddish its not derogatory.

Its like the word schwartz. That is the German word for the colour black. Its the same word used in Yiddish. People immediately think if a Jew says "shvartzah" its like saying the N word. No. It could be used in a context to be disriminatory or racist but then again it might not at all.

Depends on the person or context. To automatically assume its used only as a racist description of blacks is just not true. In fact old East European Jews used the word a lot and many blacks thought they were being nasty when they were not meaning to be just trying to distinguish them as another distinct minority as all minorities can do with one another.

I mean we can also get into a huge debate and assume everytime a goy/gentile uses the word "Jew" they are being derogatory and should instead use the more toned down word "Jewish". Uh no. Context. Its all in the context. Yes I get my edge up when I am described as a Jew and not Jewish but for heaven's sake I try give people the benefit of the doubt and wait and decipher their context.

If Oleg Bach calls me a Jew he usually puts the word Orange in front of it to make it sound not as bad. (that's a joke)

I suppose the closest way I could explaingiy to a black person (non Hebrew brother, sometimes we Jewish people call each other Hebrew brothers if we are being sarcastic) is saying its like calling a non black person a NON-brother. We also don't use it against each other in a negative self hating or depreciating way as blacks do with one another with the n word.

If we mean to insult each other we usually use the word putz or shmuck.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Rue

[wyly]

this is Bob...part of the Hasbara, Israel's effort to control the internet forums and such...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LofScCiJT4c

Edited January 26, 2011 by wyly

[M.Dancer]

this is wyly...

[Rue]

this is Bob...part of the Hasbara, Israel's effort to control the internet forums and such...

Oh do explain.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Rue

[Bob]

It's offensive to people like wyly that Jewish people can go to Wikipedia and share our perspective that is exceedingly drowned out given our miniscule numbers. God forbid the propaganda is challenged with truth!

Wikipedia is, and has been for many years, a political warzone with respect to the Israel-Arab conflict. I applaud these activists for spending their time to combat dishonest, anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist propaganda and historical revisionism that is becoming frighteningly common online. I tend to avoid Wikipedia on this issue given its not-so-subtle anti-Israel bias. The truly motivated person goes to the library and Amazon.com, not Wikipedia.