Many Jerusalem Palestinians would prefer Israeli citizenship after pea

[M.Dancer]

Funny how that excuse doesn't work with other countries.

The Falklands, Puerto Rico, Kuriles Islands, Gibralta, Corsica.....

There is a long history of that excuse working.

[dre]

The Falklands, Puerto Rico, Kuriles Islands, Gibralta, Corsica.....

There is a long history of that excuse working.

Oh boy... here we go with the Kurile Islands again

[jbg]

Oh boy... here we go with the Kurile Islands again

Is that an inconvenient truth?

[Guest TrueMetis]

The Falklands, Puerto Rico, Kuriles Islands, Gibralta, Corsica.....

There is a long history of that excuse working.

Didn't work so well for Iran, Germany, or Japan.

[Bob]

In all seriousness, we don't need to draw parallels to any other historical examples to legitimize our national rights in our eternal homeland. We have our independence and self-determination via Israel, and that's that. To us, it is the highest moral imperative as it trumps all other moral considerations (if they cannot be balanced). We're not going back to the subjugation of the Goyim, end of story. We don't need to to justify that, anymore, as it should be quite clear and understood why this is the case.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Bob

[bush_cheney2004]

In all seriousness, we don't need to draw parallels to any other historical examples to legitimize our national rights in our eternal homeland. We have our independence and self-determination via Israel, and that's that....

Agreed....we already know how Canada and America balanced such "moral considerations" when it came to the locals and land rights. Israel is a sovereign state with no less legitimacy in protecting its interests.

Edited January 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest TrueMetis]

In all seriousness, we don't need to draw parallels to any other historical examples to legitimize our national rights in our eternal homeland. We have our independence and self-determination via Israel, and that's that. To us, it is the highest moral imperative as it trumps all other moral considerations (if they cannot be balanced). We're not going back to the subjugation of the Goyim, end of story. We don't need to to justify that, anymore, as it should be quite clear and understood why this is the case.

You really expect this to be taken seriously? Let's get a few things straight, you do not have an eternal homeland, you have a right to Israel now. Independence and self-determination don't require your own country. You don't get to ignore moral considerations, and you don't get to act like you are significantly different from any other group of people.

I'm getting tired of your high and mighty BS.

[Bob]

You really expect this to be taken seriously? Let's get a few things straight, you do not have an eternal homeland, you have a right to Israel now. Independence and self-determination don't require your own country. You don't get to ignore moral considerations, and you don't get to act like you are significantly different from any other group of people.

I'm getting tired of your high and mighty BS.

You act as if our independence and self-determination is some sort of temporary phenomenon. Independence and self-determination certainly do require statehood, and more importantly, an advanced army. We don't ignore moral considerations, but we do balance them against our basic national rights and survival if and when they come into conflict. We are certainly different than others in many ways, and that is why we choose to live among one another to continue the preservation of our heritage and way of life. Basically, we're not going back into the gas chambers while the entire world looks the other way.

Get tired all you want, I'm just laying out reality for you.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You act as if our independence and self-determination is some sort of temporary phenomenon. Independence and self-determination certainly do require statehood, and more importantly, an advanced army. We don't ignore moral considerations, but we do balance them against our basic national rights and survival if and when they come into conflict. We are certainly different than others in many ways, and that is why we choose to live among one another to continue the preservation of our heritage and way of life. Basically, we're not going back into the gas chambers while the entire world looks the other way.

Get tired all you want, I'm just laying out reality for you.

They are, in a thousand year judging from the track record of other religions Jews will not exist. I'm plenty independent and have self-determination but I don't need a country specifically for the Metis to do it. I'm not getting into the moral debate right now. Over half of Jews live outside of Israel obviously the differences are so huge. And why do you always have to bring up the holocaust? Do you think that if Israel didn't exist Neo-Nazi parties would start gaining power?

Your not laying out reality you're laying out your opinions.

[Bob]

They are, in a thousand year judging from the track record of other religions Jews will not exist. I'm plenty independent and have self-determination but I don't need a country specifically for the Metis to do it. I'm not getting into the moral debate right now. Over half of Jews live outside of Israel obviously the differences are so huge. And why do you always have to bring up the holocaust? Do you think that if Israel didn't exist Neo-Nazi parties would start gaining power?

Your not laying out reality you're laying out your opinions.

Although I feel there's no way to say this without offending you, you can't compare the Metis to the Jewish people for so many reasons. Age, breadth, richness of culture, impact on humanity... there's no comparison. Most people don't even know what the Metis are. The Metis, if anything, are a temporary phenomenon. Like many other culture, the Metis will more than likely disappear. For your and your people's sake, hopefully I'm wrong. My guess is, though, that you'll all assimilate and disappear and end up being a Wikipedia entry and not a living and breathing people.

As far as the thousands of years in which we were homeless and in exile, those days are over. Gone are the days where we had not refuge and were subject to the oppression, expulsions, subjugation, and genocide of the Goyim. We're back, baby. That seems to bother you, for some reason. This is existential for us, whether or not you understand that. I'll be completely honest - I don't expect any more from people like you, how could you ever understand what we've gone though and continue to deal with? It's an integral part of Jewish identity and is shaped through a lifetime of simply being Jewish. You can't understand it by simply reading a few Wikipedia articles or watching Schindler's List. If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.

You're also unable to differentiate between individual and collective rights, so why should I continue having this conversation with you if you can't even grasp the basics?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Although I feel there's no way to say this without offending you, you can't compare the Metis to the Jewish people for so many reasons. Age, breadth, richness of culture, impact on humanity... there's no comparison. Most people don't even know what the Metis are. The Metis, if anything, are a temporary phenomenon. Like many other culture, the Metis will more than likely disappear. For your and your people's sake, hopefully I'm wrong. My guess is, though, that you'll all assimilate and disappear and end up being a Wikipedia entry and not a living and breathing people.

And so will Jews. Nothing lasts forever, I can accept that.

As far as the thousands of years in which we were homeless and in exile, those days are over. Gone are the days where we had not refuge and were subject to the oppression, expulsions, subjugation, and genocide of the Goyim. We're back, baby. That seems to bother you, for some reason. This is existential for us, whether or not you understand that. I'll be completely honest - I don't expect any more from people like you, how could you ever understand what we've gone though and continue to deal with? It's an integral part of Jewish identity and is shaped through a lifetime of simply being Jewish. You can't understand it by simply reading a few Wikipedia articles or watching Schindler's List. If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.

Maybe I don't get it because this just sounds like a victim complex. Which is something I don't see in other groups that have been nearly wiped out like the Aboriginals of Australia, or the First Nations of Canada (a group I am also part of). So no I don't get it to me it's just pathetically clinging to the wrongs in your past so you can use it as justification for anything you do.

[Bob]

Like I said, if you don't get it by now, you never will. It's quite sad that you can't see the difference between smallpox killing 95% of Natives in the Americas after the arrival of the Europeans and gas chambers (that's to say nothing of the endless list of persecution we've dealt with pre-Nazi Germany). Either way, no amount of dead Jews will satisfy you with respect to justifying our independence and self-determination. You'll just reject it endlessly. Thankfully, what you think means nothing - we're here, and we're not going anywhere. We don't need to justify our cultural preservation to you or anyone else, let along our survival.

Which leads me to ask myself, why am I wasting time speaking to you about this? You're an anti-Zionist and wish to condemn us to the rule of others. Been there, tried that - no thanks.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Like I said, if you don't get it by now, you never will. It's quite sad that you can't see the difference between smallpox killing 95% of Natives in the Americas after the arrival of the Europeans and gas chambers (that's to say nothing of the endless list of persecution we've dealt with pre-Nazi Germany). Either way, no amount of dead Jews will satisfy you with respect to justifying our independence and self-determination. You'll just reject it endlessly. Thankfully, what you think means nothing - we're here, and we're not going anywhere. We don't need to justify our cultural preservation to you or anyone else, let along our survival.

Never heard of residential schools? Or of all the slaughter's the happened for no real reason? (granted this happened on both sides) Apparently only the history of the Jews matters. I know Jews that lived through the holocaust that were effected by it less than you, get over it.

Which leads me to ask myself, why am I wasting time speaking to you about this? You're an anti-Zionist and wish to condemn us to the rule of others. Been there, tried that - no thanks.

I said pretty freaking directly you had the right to Israel. This is why I don't like you you aren't willing to debate honestly.

[dre]

Is that an inconvenient truth?

No its a complete and total red herring. I went into this the last time someone thew out this botched talking point, and explained point by point how the history of that dispute is not really comparable in any way. Im not going to do it again... use google if youre interested.

[Bonam]

They are, in a thousand year judging from the track record of other religions Jews will not exist.

Jews are not (only) a religion, neither in their own minds nor in the views of their enemy's throughout history. Though few people in English speaking countries realize it, Jewish self-identity and their perception by cultures that have historically harbored large Jewish populations is as that of a race (or more specifically: a group of races) first and foremost, not a religion. Ask any Russian, Pole, Ukranian, etc, what being a Jew means: they will all tell you without fail that it is a matter of blood. Today, the religious and racial identity is intertwined in complex ways. Religions come and go... races not so much, except through genocide of course. Both conversion and extermination have been tried many many times on Jews (the Holocaust was but the latest and largest example of a recurring phenomenon that has been happening for thousands of years), yet they remain.

Additionally, while the vast majority of distinct ethno-cultural groups that existed, for example, 3000 years ago, have long since gone extinct or merged together into other cultures, Jews have remained completely distinct and have maintained a vibrant culture.

If you want to look at a historical track record, look at the historical track record of the Jews themselves.

I'm plenty independent and have self-determination but I don't need a country specifically for the Metis to do it.

YOU as an individual have freedom as a citizen (I assume) of Canada. The freedoms granted to a citizen of a democratic country are extensive and valuable, but they do not include "independence" or "self-determination". Even natives in Canada, who have been granted many special rights by the Canadian government, still do not enjoy full independence or self-determination, and never will, so long as they remain part of a larger federal body. It is impossible by definition.

I'm not getting into the moral debate right now. Over half of Jews live outside of Israel obviously the differences are so huge.

And less than 70 years ago 100% of Jews lived outside of Israel since Israel did not exist yet. So what?

Edited January 24, 2011 by Bonam

[jbg]

No its a complete and total red herring. I went into this the last time someone thew out this botched talking point, and explained point by point how the history of that dispute is not really comparable in any way. Im not going to do it again... use google if youre interested.

I was the one who started the "Kurile" thread. It was not worth debating further the extent of obvious world hypocrisy. It's just dandy for the Russians to steamroller indigenous ethnic people; the Jewish people somehow are not entitled to a piece of land barely larger than Prince Edward Island and even then any such rights come hemmed in with no right to self-defense.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Jews are not (only) a religion, neither in their own minds nor in the views of their enemy's throughout history. Though few people in English speaking countries realize it, Jewish self-identity and their perception by cultures that have historically harbored large Jewish populations is as that of a race (or more specifically: a group of races) first and foremost, not a religion. Ask any Russian, Pole, Ukranian, etc, what being a Jew means: they will all tell you without fail that it is a matter of blood. Today, the religious and racial identity is intertwined in complex ways. Religions come and go... races not so much, except through genocide of course. Both conversion and extermination have been tried many many times on Jews (the Holocaust was but the latest and largest example of a recurring phenomenon that has been happening for thousands of years), yet they remain.

Races are a social construct, so yes they do come and go. Blood carries nothing but genetics, and last I checked there was no Jew gene. And if it really was in the blood you would be Jewish if either of you parents was Jewish, as is your only born Jewish if your mother was Jewish. (At least under orthodox Judaism not sure about other forms)

Additionally, while the vast majority of distinct ethno-cultural groups that existed, for example, 3000 years ago, have long since gone extinct or merged together into other cultures, Jews have remained completely distinct and have maintained a vibrant culture.

Bull the Jewish culture of today is nothing like the Jewish culture of 3000 years ago. Jew's used to be polytheists for christ sake.

[Bonam]

Blood carries nothing but genetics, and last I checked there was no Jew gene. And if it really was in the blood you would be Jewish if either of you parents was Jewish, as is your only born Jewish if your mother was Jewish. (At least under orthodox Judaism not sure about other forms)

Yet under Israeli law you qualify for the right of return to Israel if at at least one of your grandparents was a Jew. As for genetics, there are genes unique to every ethnic group out there, the various races of the Jews being no exception.

Bull the Jewish culture of today is nothing like the Jewish culture of 3000 years ago. Jew's used to be polytheists for christ sake.

And?

Edited January 24, 2011 by Bonam

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yet under Israeli law you qualify for the right of return to Israel if at at least one of your grandparents was a Jew. As for genetics, there are genes unique to every ethnic group out there, the various races of the Jews being no exception.

You can become a Jew via conversion, sounds like an exception to me.

ETA and it's still a social construct because you could pick any gene and say anyone with it is part if the same race therefore it is "unique" to that group.

And?

So how can Jews be distinct when they been incorporating parts of other cultures into their own for thousands of years?

Edited January 24, 2011 by TrueMetis

[Bonam]

You can become a Jew via conversion, sounds like an exception to me.

Like I said, the religious and racial identity is mixed and intertwined, and confuses many people. Nonetheless, anyone who actually researches this issue can deny that racial identity is a significant component.

ETA and it's still a social construct because you could pick any gene and say anyone with it is part if the same race therefore it is "unique" to that group.

If you want to debate the nature of races feel free to start a thread. The fact that the vast majority of people clearly understand what is meant by race is sufficient.

So how can Jews be distinct when they been incorporating parts of other cultures into their own for thousands of years?

And yet they obviously are distinct in today's world, just as they were millenia ago.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Like I said, the religious and racial identity is mixed and intertwined, and confuses many people. Nonetheless, anyone who actually researches this issue can deny that racial identity is a significant component.

It's also an arbitrary one like Linnaean classification. If races really existed you could use multiple techniques to classify them and get the same groups, ya can't therefore social construct.

If you want to debate the nature of races feel free to start a thread. The fact that the vast majority of people clearly understand what is meant by race is sufficient.

That means what? The Majority of people tend to think some pretty stupid stuff. And I don't think this is even true, If you asked most people about race most people would probably think about skin colour first and foremost.

And yet they obviously are distinct in today's world, just as they were millenia ago.

To a degree yes, in that their compilation of traditions is slightly different than other groups. No one tradition they have is unique, and being a Jew today means something entirely different from what being a Jew 1000 years ago meant.

Edited January 24, 2011 by TrueMetis

[Bob]

It's also an arbitrary one like Linnaean classification. If races really existed you could use multiple techniques to classify them and get the same groups, ya can't therefore social construct.

That means what? The Majority of people tend to think some pretty stupid stuff. And I don't think this is even true, If you asked most people about race most people would probably think about skin colour first and foremost.

To a degree yes, in that their compilation of traditions is slightly different than other groups. No one tradition they have is unique, and being a Jew today means something entirely different from what being a Jew 1000 years ago meant.

You're completely ignoring and deflecting from the truth of Bonam's statements. Just because the criteria of "who is a Jew?" isn't universally agreed upon by all people doesn't mean it isn't an interesting an legitimate question with legitimate answers. You say it's a "social construct" in order to disparage Jewish identity, as if it's some sort of temporary trend and not thousands of years old. You mention that Judaism has changed over time in order to disparage it. Beyond the fact that you know nothing about Judaism or how it has changed over time, why is it a problem or undesirable that it has evolved over time? Would you be less of an anti-Semite if we had stayed absolutely uniform since our earliest origins? The stupidest part of your comment was this: No one tradition they have is unique - as if you know anything about Jewish traditions.

So let's review what you've said and determine why you said these things. The classification of the Jewish people is somewhat arbitrary, so what? There is an element of social construction to the Jewish people, so what? Our traditions are "slightly different" than other groups, which isn't true at all, by why did you bring this up? Clearly you're trying to undermine the distinct nature of Jewish identity, heritage, culture, and faith. You're trying to shape a lie that we're just like everyone else, and therefore aren't entitled to independence and self-determination. Thank you for denying the very reasons of our nation's existence.

Your anti-Semitism is so fucking transparent and pathetic.

Lastly, you speak as if you're somehow in a position to be telling us about how Jewish traditions compare to other traditions. You think anybody in here believes that you even have the most basic familiarity with Jewish traditions? Considering that you obviously don't know the first thing about the Jewish people and our culture, where do you get off speaking on matters about Jewish identity? You are way out of your league.

I'll connect this to something a few of us have been talking about for quite awhile in this forum - the strong correlation between the anti-Israel crowd, anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism. As I said before, dig a little deeper than the surface, as we've done here with TrueMetis, and the anti-Semitism is instantly revealed. There was a clear purpose behind his post, which was to deny the distinction of the Jewish people. Although he didn't explicitly state it, the intent is clear - deny Jewish identity's legitimacy in order to deny the legitimacy of Jewish independence self-determination via Israel.

[Guest TrueMetis]

And once again the victim complex comes out. I was talking about races, races are a social construct without any actual value in classification.

ETA and I'm loving your you must be Jewish to understand Jews stance, funny how that never comes up for any other group.

Edited January 24, 2011 by TrueMetis

[Bob]

Race isn't entirely a social construct. There are groups of people with genetic commonalities. The importance of these genetic commonalities is of course disputable. Consider, for example, that some groups of people are more prone to certain illnesses, and other groups of people are more resistant to those illnesses. There's some utility in examining genetic trends among some groups.

The concept of race has limitations... but it also has utility in some instances.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Race isn't entirely a social construct. There are groups of people with genetic commonalities. The importance of these genetic commonalities is of course disputable. Consider, for example, that some groups of people are more prone to certain illnesses, and other groups of people are more resistant to those illnesses. There's some utility in examining genetic trends among some groups.

The concept of race has limitations... but it also has utility in some instances.

Those "commonalities" disappear depending on the gene you pick.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

My link

Like I said if races really existed there would be independent ways of verifying that and coming up with the same races, there aren't. In addition to that if there really were biological races the distinctions would be clear. Here's the problem often times biologists can't even be sure if a to animals are the same species or not, sure it's obvious when you look at rhino's and dogs, but it get's a lot more complicated when the animals are closely related. For example for the longest time there was huge debate, and still is to a degree, whether dogs where a new species. Currently they are classified as a sub-species of wolf. With us it's even more difficult, being that we are a sub-species Homo Sapien Sapien. Further sub-dividing that grouping biologically is pretty much impossible because human beings are so genetically homogeneous, more so then most other mammalian species.

Another problem is there is no common accepted definition of race in the scientific community, note that there are also no commonly accepted definitions for words population, species, and sub-species. But while population, species, and sub-species are all accepted in the scientific community race has fallen out of use.

ETA Perhaps ethnicity would be a better word to use instead of race, it is commonly defined as a group of people who's member's identify with each other and share ancestry, culture, religion, and language. (though one doesn't necessarily have to share all of these things to belong to that group)

Edited January 24, 2011 by TrueMetis