Many Jerusalem Palestinians would prefer Israeli citizenship after pea

[dre]

Sure it does....farmers have different priorities...not to mention that palestinian farmers aren't living in Israel where as the p[alestinians in east jerusalem are living in Isreal.

It doesnt matter... youre asking these people whether or not they want to join a state which currently cant even use its own water resources. Its not just farmers that would be concerned about the ability of a state to build an argrarian economy its everyone.

These people know that any palestinian state (and lets face it, there isnt going be one unless some FORCES it on the two gangs of retards) will probably only include a small portion of the land allocated to such a state by law. And probably even then only the most useless parts. Nobody on earth with a brain thinks Israel will ever give up the mountain aquifier.

So the prospects for such a state under these conditions is bleak... Im suprised that even 30% were willing to commit to an answer in the affirmative.

Edited January 17, 2011 by dre

[M.Dancer]

... Im suprised that even 30% were willing to commit to an answer in the affirmative.

Less surprising than the 35% who would rather be Israelis...given the consequences for such a display of disloyalty to which ever faction is in power among the palestinians is usually death.

....which leads me to believe that if they didn't fear violent reprisals...what the true number would be?

[dre]

Less surprising than the 35% who would rather be Israelis...given the consequences for such a display of disloyalty to which ever faction is in power among the palestinians is usually death.

....which leads me to believe that if they didn't fear violent reprisals...what the true number would be?

I havent paid as much attention to CONFLICT: DIRTFARM as I used to, and correct me if Im wrong here, but isnt Abbas a fair bit more moderate about that kind of thing? Do you have recent evidence of the authority in the West Bank executing people for making these kind of statements? Also wasnt the poll anonymous? Were the names of the people polled registered and published?

[bud]

Sure it does....farmers have different priorities...not to mention that palestinian farmers aren't living in Israel where as the p[alestinians in east jerusalem are living in Isreal.

palestinians in east jerusalem are 'not' living in israel. the annexation is not recognized by majority of the, no wait, all of the world (except by the law breaker, israel), since it breaches international law.

[bloodyminded]

Given Bloodystupid's continued reminding me of my first impression of him, I wonder if I hit a nerve and perhaps I was right.

Ah, so now the smarmy little internet bully--again indulging in criticizing me at second hand, rather than debating me head on--resurrects his pedophile insult.

.

.I think he's more miffed that I ignore him than the actual insult...which again, speaks volumes about the underlying narcissism of the poster...

I'm not miffed that you ignore me--which I take as a compliment--I'm irritated that you don't ignore me. You talk about my posts periodically...to others. Frightened to debate me at all.

Edited January 18, 2011 by bloodyminded

[M.Dancer]

palestinians in east jerusalem are 'not' living in israel. the annexation is not recognized by majority of the, no wait, all of the world (except by the law breaker, israel), since it breaches international law.

israel recognises it...and israel gets to make the rules about ISrael, the rest of the world merely gets an opinion.

[M.Dancer]

I havent paid as much attention to CONFLICT: DIRTFARM as I used to, and correct me if Im wrong here, but isnt Abbas a fair bit more moderate about that kind of thing? Do you have recent evidence of the authority in the West Bank executing people for making these kind of statements? Also wasnt the poll anonymous? Were the names of the people polled registered and published?

I doubt that in a terror state, anonoimity woiuld make many feel secure.

Does Abbas have any real control?

JENIN, West Bank — Five gunmen on Sunday shot and killed an alleged "collaborator" in front of hundreds of people in a public square in the West Bank refugee camp of Jenin, accusing him of giving information to Israeli authorities, witnesses said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208126,00.html

Around 30 Palestinians have been sentenced to death on similar charges in the past two years, although the sentences have not been carried out.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/west-bank-woman-convicted-as-israeli-collaborator-414875.html#ixzz1BOg4FtIf

Armed Palestinians killed a man suspected of collaborating with Israel in the West Bank city of Qalqilya on Wednesday, said Reuters.

Palestinian Authority officials have said citizens should not take matters into their own hands, adding that suspected collaborators be dealt with in court.

http://www1.albawaba.com/news/armed-palestinians-kill-suspected-collaborator-west-bank

[bloodyminded]

israel recognises it...and israel gets to make the rules about ISrael, the rest of the world merely gets an opinion.

No. The United States has tremendous influence and power in Israel. At bottom, the U.S. is the boss.

[Bob]

No. The United States has tremendous influence and power in Israel. At bottom, the U.S. is the boss.

That's too simplistic. If America could make Israel do its will, then the situation would be very different. Yes, America has sway with Israel in many ways, but it isn't absolute and it isn't simple.

[bloodyminded]

That's too simplistic. If America could make Israel do its will, then the situation would be very different. Yes, America has sway with Israel in many ways, but it isn't absolute and it isn't simple.

I agree. It's a sovereign state. I could have been more precise, and pointed out only that the mob boss has a profound influence, often well beyond explicit orders.

Edited January 18, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Its all a waste of time anyways, because all the people answering can do is guess about what such a site might be like to live on... so for the most part its based on what life is like there now... under a brutal military occupation where the residents arent even allowed to drill wells to irrigate crops.

That's not true. But then, you tend not to allow reality to interfere with your version of events.

[Bob]

Is there a lot of farming in Jerusalem?

There is very little agriculture in Jerusalem - it's virtually non-existent here. Agricultural areas are more prevalent is less densely populated parts of Israel in the far South and also in the North. As far as Arab-areas in what many refer to as the West Bank, there are quite a few areas with low level agriculture. I'm not very familiar with that area, though.

[Bob]

palestinians in east jerusalem are 'not' living in israel. the annexation is not recognized by majority of the, no wait, all of the world (except by the law breaker, israel), since it breaches international law.

You can say that, and it is true that the UN doesn't recognize the 1967 Israeli-annexation of liberated portions of Jerusalem from Jordanian occupation. The reality is, however, that Israeli law is in effect and enforced in what you refer to as East Jerusalem. So for all the Arabs that live in East Jerusalem (a term with a few definitions, I might add), including myself, we need to be cognizant to obey Israel law or else. Day-to-day life here is under Israeli sovereignty, regardless of proclamations at the UN or from anti-Israeli internet forum patrons such as yourself. There's rhetoric, and then there's reality.

[bud]

israel recognises it...and israel gets to make the rules about ISrael, the rest of the world merely gets an opinion.

it doesn't matter what israel and you feel about annexing east jerusalem, it breaches international law. this is something the world recognizes.

[bud]

You can say that, and it is true that the UN doesn't recognize the 1967 Israeli-annexation of liberated portions of Jerusalem from Jordanian occupation. The reality is, however, that Israeli law is in effect and enforced in what you refer to as East Jerusalem. So for all the Arabs that live in East Jerusalem (a term with a few definitions, I might add), including myself, we need to be cognizant to obey Israel law or else. Day-to-day life here is under Israeli sovereignty, regardless of proclamations at the UN or from anti-Israeli internet forum patrons such as yourself. There's rhetoric, and then there's reality.

nazi germany felt the same way about its annexation of austria and poland regardless of what the law says and what the rest of the world thought.

this is a common habit of rogue states.

[M.Dancer]

it doesn't matter what israel and you feel about annexing east jerusalem, it breaches international law. this is something the world recognizes.

So?

Apparently a plurality of arab residents recognize the surperioirty of Israeli citizenship...

[M.Dancer]

nazi germany felt the same way about its annexation of austria and poland regardless of what the law says and what the rest of the world thought.

this is a common habit of rogue states.

I await your condemnation of Poland annexing east prussia...

[bud]

I await your condemnation of Poland annexing east prussia...

oh yeah! totally dude! you hit the nail on that one! totally the same thing man! east prussia.. east jerusalem.. so same thing! SO same thing!

israel is a rogue state that continues to violate numerous international laws. the violations have nothing to do with its security but it does have to do with illegally expanding its borders.

you're no different than a supporter of nazi germany expansionism. ooh. i just used hyperbole to get my point across. how you of me.

[M.Dancer]

oh yeah! totally dude! you hit the nail on that one! totally the same thing man! east prussia.. east jerusalem.. so same thing! SO same thing!

israel is a rogue state that continues to violate numerous international laws. the violations have nothing to do with its security but it does have to do with illegally expanding its borders.

you're no different than a supporter of nazi germany expansionism. ooh. i just used hyperbole to get my point across. how you of me.

So explain why the ethnic cleaning of germans from East Prussia and the annexation is okay but a united jerusalem with no expulsion of citizens is not.

While you are at it...explain why the occupation of jerusalem by Jordan was okay...

[Bob]

I'm too tired to spend time looking for the post(s) I'm about to reply to, but I did read messages in this thread suggesting that the reasons Palestinians from Jerusalem would prefer to keep (or acquire if they haven't already received it) their Israeli citizenships in the event of the establishment of a Palestinian state are based on "freedom of movement" issues. Any reasonable and informed person knows that Palestinian statehood would not include an Israeli presence within the Palestinian state. Checkpoints and other security measures that can restrict freedom of movement would no longer exist in such a scenario.

Palestinians who were polled for this story know full well that freedom of movement was not an issue for the hypothetical Palestinian state. They tend to prefer Israeli citizenship for the reasons I've already listed. There's a materialistic component, to be sure, but there is a strong ideological and political reason for desiring the be Israeli, as well. Moreover, nobody in here can address the burning question: if Arabs are oppressed and discriminated against in Israel as severely as Israel's fiercest critics would lead you to believe, why would they not wish to emancipate themselves from the yoke of Israeli oppression and actualize their desires for self-determination and independence in a future Palestinian state? Rest assured, this question will not be answered seriously by anyone in here, for obvious reasons.

[dre]

So explain why the ethnic cleaning of germans from East Prussia and the annexation is okay but a united jerusalem with no expulsion of citizens is not.

While you are at it...explain why the occupation of jerusalem by Jordan was okay...

So explain why the ethnic cleaning of germans from East Prussia and the annexation is okay but a united jerusalem with no expulsion of citizens is not.

[Guest American Woman]

M. Dancer is a douchebag, who called me a pedophile, and insults me to others, but refuses to debate me head on (conversely, I will discuss things with him any time he wants).

Saipan and Bush-Cheney are trolls; they come here only to mock and and belittle. Everyone knows this.

All of this is not related to my points about rhetorical word usages in English.

No, it's not. Yet you felt the need to bring them up, hence my response.

[bloodyminded]

No, it's not. Yet you felt the need to bring them up, hence my response.

Then for the sake of this debate, consider them withdrawn.

[jbg]

I would say 1/3 constitutes "many." If you don't think so, then you would also have to disagree with this statement: 'Many Jerusalem Palestinians want to remain Palestinian.' Do you think that's a misleading statement?

Not too suprising really... theres gonna be a predisposition towards being a citizen of a dominating country over a dominated country. Most afghans would probably rather live in Massecheusets, or Illinois instead of under the Karzai government as well.

The poll is stupid and pointless and the result is exactly what anyone would expect.

Maybe some people would prefer a well-run country with a constructive government to living in a hellhole like the second coming of Pakistan, Chad, or Sudan.

[Guest TrueMetis]

israel recognises it...and israel gets to make the rules about ISrael, the rest of the world merely gets an opinion.

Funny how that excuse doesn't work with other countries.